[HELP] Need advice, hormonal aggression????

[Caccamo]

Hi @ all, i'm Willilam and i have a 4 years old blue fronted Amazon, Cleo.
I take Cleo when he was just 6 months old.
He had always a very good relationship with me. He wanted always to stay near me, we play together with "target game" and "recall fly". He was very bounded to me.
In this years only one time Cleo attacked me without consequence, just for my mistake, because i react in a bad way in a dangerous situation; he was biting an electric wire and i shouted to him and i used also a pillow in aggressive way to distract him from the wire. Anyway this is something happen 2 years ago.
In the last time i notice something strange in him. During his normal play situation sometimes i heard a strange sound for 3-4 seconds during his normal playing scream. In 2-3 months this happen more frequently and in more long way.
This an example[ame="https://youtu.be/cHgGdMCsPyo"]https://youtu.be/cHgGdMCsPyo[/ame]

So anyway what happen?
My routine with him was i wake up him, he went out from his cage, i picked him and we went downstairs at ground floor, and after some flies he ate his breakfast in his second cage.
Sometimes the morning spend a few minutes before he came with me in the ground floor, there are different reason, for example when i go out the evening for a dinner and so i wasn't with him during his meal before, sleep etc. Yes his most big fear is abandonment. He scream and call me if i'm also just in a different floor of the home.

So what happen now?
The strange "sound call" became also associated to a "mount movement" with his toys (i think it's a male).
A morning, about 2 weeks ago that i was all the day before out to work and i come back in home during the night, when he was sleeping, he had a strange behaviour with me, the same of the aggression of 2 years before. Dilated pupils, open tails etc. I speak with him i fed him WITHOUT put him out of the cage and i remain close to him during the meal. He seemed to be ok and ask also some scracth and also was singing. I decided to pick him and put out of the cage. Just i open the cage and he went out start immediatly to have the aggressive behaviour with me. I remain in the same room to speek with him but nothing change and he start to attack me in a hard way. I spent 4 hours that morning to bring him in his cage. From that morning when he just see me, from the inside of the cage, he start to open tail, dilated pupils and search to attack me. The strange thing it's if a go out from his cage room or form his sight he start to scream and call me with all his voice but just he see me he starts to attack me. In this first period i react in a bad way, sometimes screaming with him and most of the time go away from him and leave him free alone in the room for ten minutes before retry to speak with him
This happen for one week, after that he alternates period with this behavior and normal behavior.
Meantime i read from this forum what i can do and i see advice to act in normal way and not be afraid of him, don'tescape from him, and just say "no" with though voice when he attack you and try to restart to play with him etc. So i try to reinteract with him, but also if was normal in the cage just he went out from his cage he started to attack me. The aggression was so bad that he stop to attack me only when he was without strength and with breathlessness that he was unable to fly to attack me. And that for hours. Absurdly the situation was resolve from my partner that lives with me that Cleo never wants stay with her, and also never wants to pick up to her. I had to go out in other room or floor and my partner with extremely care called him and put him in cage.
And i try this for 3-4 days.
Now also if i see him calm in his cage i don't trust to open him. What i can do to resolve the situation? It's a normal hormonal aggression? Or something goes terrible wrong with me and him?

PS: sorry for my bad english

 

[SailBoat]

First, please take the time to read the first Thread of the Amazon Forum, highlighted in light blue that addresses Amazon Body Language. My recommendation would be when your Amazon is in his cage, place a chair along side and read the Thread aloud. Two reasons, Amazon's love to be read too and after the third of fourth reading you will begin to note communications that your Amazon has been providing and you possibly missing.

Always start from the position that: It is never the fault of the Amazon and always the fault of the Human. This will allow you to more quickly find the cause and correct it faster.

Consider providing your general location. It is just so helpful when attempting to understand and provide support. With an Adult Amazon commonly around five years of age (some sooner) a Hormonal Response this time of year for those in the Southern half of the World would be very possible. Where in the North half not very likely, hence the advantage of a general location.

You state that your Amazon has not been DNA verified as a Male or Female - this would be helpful, please see your Avian Vet!

I would recommend that you check a couple of possible Hormonal Drivers too, they will at least provide some basic ideas: (a.) Assure that your Amazon is getting up to twelve hours of sleep. (b.) avoid body contact with mid to lower back of your Amazon. (c.) avoid warm mushy foods. There are others, but this will at least provide a few items.

Please read the first Thread to your Amazon as many times as is needed for you to understand what you are seeing. Note: Wise people re-read this Thread a couple of times each year as a refresher!

 

[Caccamo]

First, please take the time to read...
cut

Thank you to reply me SailBoat.

I know verywell the body language of my amazon and amazon in general and that thanks also to the continuos reading of content about amazon in those years. Sorry maybe my poor english doesn't explain well the situation.
So first of all i don't know the sex of Cleo. I immagine that is male in the recent situation with the strange sound call and because he try to mount his toys, but i don0t have a DNA exam.
Second: "Always start from the position that: It is never the fault of the Amazon and always the fault of the Human." Absolute this I know that somethings go bad with our relationship i don't know how to resolve because i can't read what he really want. So i'm asking advice to handle this situation because if it's an hormonal situation, I read that it's very hard to handle it.

Anyway it's first time in 4 years he had this behaviour and here in Italy is full hot summer. This is the reason i think it's entered in his puberty.
He was always very bounded to me, right now i'm writing to you in the room netx to him he is calling me with my name and sent me also kisses. 5 minutes ago that i was in his room he was climbing and playing around his big cage asking me, with his body language, to go out of his cage. But now the problem is i'm afraid to let out him from his cage because i don't want to aggravate this situation because i relize i don't know how to handle him in this aggressive situation.
I know the importance of sleep in parrots and he slept always at least 12 hours. He is fedwith Harisson's bird food.

So i'm asking if someone recognize hormonal behaviour in my situation and if yes, how i can handle to not do something more wrong with Cleo.

Thank you

 

[Kiwibird]

Your video seems to be set to 'private' so I am unable to view it to see the behavior.

4 is not an unheard of age for a BFA to hit puberty and random aggression is certainly a 'symptom'. As you may already know, puberty can last a few years where the bird is exhibiting hormonal behavior year round before settling into adulthood and a cycle of feeling hormonal only during the breeding season. I would strongly suggest, if he isn't already, training Cleo to step up to a stick as well as to your hand. With a hormonal amazon, stick training can be the difference between a trust breaking attack and a safe interaction if they are displaying aggression and need to be transported. A few other tips to help mitigate hormonal behavior would be:

-Consistent sleep/wake schedule (i.e. he should be put to be and woken up the same time each day. Aim for 8-10 hours of sleep each night). A cover or having him sleep in a completely dark room may be necessary, as the sun cycle is what triggers their cycle

- Less sugary fruit and more low-sugar veggies in the diet. Also drastically reduce and foods he may eat that are high in protein and fat (such as eggs or seeds/nuts).

- Extra chewing toys. Better for them to shred a toy than your hand!

- Absolutely no 'small dark spaces' that could be interpreted as a "nest" he needs to defend. That means he should be allowed to get under/behind furniture, into cabinets, cubbies or anything similar.

-Watch those body language signs! If he's got his eyes going crazy, tail flared, wings spread etc... probably best to let him be at that time and to try interacting later. The best thing to do about bites is to avoid them, that way you don't accidentally encourage them.

-Some people find it of benefit to 'switch up' their environment. Move his perches around in his cage, change out the toys, even move his cage to a different area.

Last, but not least, remember he is having a really rough time in life right now. He does not understand what is happening to him, he is not going to be able to choose a mate or have babies and (I believe at least) once the momentary rage passes, they know they've hurt someone they care about who loves them. Understanding and patience is essential during this time in a parrots life.

 

[Caccamo]

Thank you Kiwi, i change the video privacy. I think now you can see it.
Cleo it's trained to step up on my arm and to free flight recall but not to step up to a stick or perch. So maybe i have to train to do this. Today it's all day he wants my presence near him and also this morning didn't have an aggresive behaviour with me, but i see him very agitated, it's alwayse up and down his cage and wan go out.

 

[Kiwibird]

Thank you Kiwi, i change the video privacy. I think now you can see it.
Cleo it's trained to step up on my arm and to free flight recall but not to step up to a stick or perch. So maybe i have to train to do this. Today it's all day he wants my presence near him and also this morning didn't have an aggresive behaviour with me, but i see him very agitated, it's alwayse up and down his cage and wan go out.

That certainly sounds like a male mating noise. Our BFA does that noise and he'll fluff out his bottom and hump things too

Curious, is that his normal cage or just a cage you use to transport him in? I'm not sure what country you are in or what's available cage wise, but an amazon really needs a much, much larger cage and more toys as well. Part of his issues (if that is his permanent cage), could be he's going a bit crazy from being in that small of a space and lashing out. He is also likely bored if those are his only toys. You seem pretty well researched, so I'm guessing that isn't his regular cage, but I also know in some countries it is still common to send amazon sized birds home in cages that small and if that were the case, a lot of his 'problems' would likely improve with a larger home and more toys. BFAs are smart birds. They need a lot of mental stimulation and room. If you need help choosing a cage, let us know where you are and we can help find a more appropriately sized house for Cleo You may also want to check out the DIY section for inexpensive home made toy ideas for him.

 

[Caccamo]

This is his main cage that is situated in a room all for Cleo.
The cage in the video his a little cage that it's in the lounge room to a different floor of the house.
So when i'm in the lounge to eat or to see TV, i took Cleo with me and after some time free to flight i put him in this cage that it's essentially a carrier cage that i use to bring him in vacation etc.



Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

 

[Kiwibird]

This is his main cage that is situated in a room all for Cleo.
The cage in the video his a little cage that it's in the lounge room to a different floor of the house.
So when i'm in the lounge to eat or to see TV, i took Cleo with me and after some time free to flight i put him in this cage that it's essentially a carrier cage that i use to bring him in vacation etc.



Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

Glad to see! That looks like a great cage for a zon! I just wanted to be certain as we do see it come up from time to time.

It does sound like puberty is starting, especially those noises and frantic behavior. Unfortunately, you're in for a rough few years, but you'll get through it You said you free fly him. I would check on the free flight board about any special precautions that might be good to take during puberty as hormonal birds aren't always thinking clearly. May not be a bad idea to fly him on a flight line if he's being temperamental (better safe than sorry!). I know we have a few free fliers on the forum who could probably answer with more clarity than me though (he's not on very often, but @Lebachu comes to mind). I would personally try to get some more chewing materials into the cage for Cleo. They need to chew stuff up when they're hormonal. It helps reduce aggression quite a bit.

 

[SailBoat]

You have gotten really great advise regarding your BFA and crew toys 'in quality' need to be added ASAP.

Free Flight is a term normally used for unharnessed 'Outdoor Flight.' I believe what your are doing is Indoor Flight, correct? Now, both use many of the same commands. The danger of a Hormonal Amazon with 'Indoor' flight is that is demands very close attention to your Amazon's Emotional State.

Since Italy is consider in the North. Your Amazon's normal Hormonal 'season' would generally occur between December and February. As a result, your Amazon is likely experiencing its first onset of its Hormonal event. But it is 180 degrees out of its 'normal' yearly cycle. So, something is driving this out of a normal cycle event. I would suggest that you revisit my first Post and consider applying the recommendations found in the last half of by Post. double check that your Amazon is 'in fact' getting a full nights sleep targeting both dark and quiet.

I have over forty years of life with Amazons and I find near everyday that I learn something new about Amazons in general and my Amazon in specific. Many times, I re-learn something at I had forgotten. To that end, you are missing something and need to back-up and apply what your know and have learned here. Re-read the Posts above, the Amazon Body language Thread.

Regarding Harisons Pellets: It is a great 'base diet,' but it should be a base support by a full compliment of 'Chop' - a mix of fresh Vegs, etc...

Once again, even with it being his first Hormonal Event, it is still out of time phase by near six months.

So yes, your Amazon is very likely presenting with Hormonal Issues. So, you need to work to curb them with all the tools you have learned. Being aggressive toward an Amazon that is presenting Hormonal Aggression is like adding gasoline to an already burning fire and is just DANGEROUS!

 

[MyBirdsHouse]

Seems like you have already received some great advice. I didnt read everyones responses so please forgive me if I am repeating what others have already said. But,

A few things:
Yes, your bird is at an age that we refer to as ''terrible 2's'' which funnily enough can last a few years. Sexual maturity is setting in and yes, your bird is testing the boundaries of dominance.

Dominance is a big issue with fully flighted birds and if you plan to keep him fully flighted then you must be prepared to do the research and training to take care of it early.

The cage: His main cage is excellent. His other cage is far too small, even if he is only spending a short time inside, a fully flighted bird is going to feel constricted and agitated in a cage that small. When birds are in cages that are too small they can become territorial and 'cage possessive'. This may be why he is getting into 'attack mode' when he sees you approaching him.

My advice: Go to a professional bird groomer and have only the first 4 flight feathers clipped. Ask for a 'half clip'. He will still be able to glide and not have any issues with balance, but you will instantly notice a change in his dominant behavior.

If this sounds like the worst thing ever and you are a true believer in keeping your birds fully flighted, that is fine also, but just be aware that these dominance issues are something you will have to deal with.

Second: Get him a bigger second cage, or, move his big cage into the other room with you if you can. Or, get a play stand instead of that small cage.

Hope this was helpful,

Sincerely,

Leigh from My Birds House

 

[Kiwibird]

To that end, you are missing something and need to back-up and apply what your know and have learned here. Re-read the Posts above, the Amazon Body language Thread.
!

Hey Sailboat, do you remember where Mark's biting thread was (the one he went over all the different reasons a parrot may bite and what to do about it)? I think the OP might find that thread helpful too, but I can't find it

 

[SailBoat]

Wow, top of the game! That would be prefect! Dig time!

 

[Caccamo]

Thank you so much @ all!!!

After 2 days spent in his main cage with no aggressive behavior, most of the time with me next to him, playing with toys and interacting with me, also this morning i wake up him and i spent 2 hours with him. After all normal scracth, playing with his toys etc, i decide to try to put out from his cage. There was also my partner in this room all the morning. Anyway Just Cleo go out from his cage he start to open tail, crazy eyes etc all the stuf of the aggressive behavior against me. After 5-6 minutes spent to see if he calm down i had to go out from the room and left him alone with my partner. We decide to try to bring him @ groundfloor in a "neutral" envirorment and my partner (this is absurd in my opinion) another time with extremely care try to call Cleo and bring him down. She success and Cleo arrive in groundfloor where i was. I just start to talk with him but he just start to do the "death Dance" to me. He calm down just if i give him my back ad i don't see directly him. He start to do some flight without aggression. After some minutes i try to speak with him and try some recall he went to me without aggression but on my arm was very instable and upset ready to bite. just i move he bite me and fly away. I can't move in the hall or room where is he. He start immediately to death dance and aiming me. After all my partner another time had to call him with very patience, wait 10 minutes Cleo wasn't distracted and when he fly to her She put him in his second cage.

So I think now that the first problematic week, where he attacked me and i was afraid and escaped from him, build up in him a dominance against me! Is it possible?
Because i don't see any other motivations. In his cage he want ONLY me next to him, if we are me and my partner next to him and i go away Cleo start to scream and call me, if my partner go away Cleo doesn't care. In his cage he wants scracth from me and we play touching him but only me, if my partner try to play with him he growl to her and try to bite her.
But where he come out from the cage all change he is extremely aggressive with me and the only way to calm down and put back him in the cage it's my partner.

So what can i do to remove this dominance against me without considering the advice of @MyBirdsHouse ??

My advice: Go to a professional bird groomer and have only the first 4 flight feathers clipped. Ask for a 'half clip'. He will still be able to glide and not have any issues with balance, but you will instantly notice a change in his dominant behavior.

Answering to some questions.
Yes @SailBoat i meant "indoor" free flight. The goal was "outdoor" freeflight but i never found a big space (like a gym or something else) to do the intermediate training before take him in a real open space.
I think that now his training to recall flight it's the only reason that is allowing my partner to take Cleo back in his cage.
I don't want to consider in any way the possibility to clip feathers to Cleo.

Anyway this morning really set me sad and lose heart

 

[Kiwibird]

Please don't take offense to this, but he probably senses your fear of him and is taking full advantage now. They do that. If you don't want to give a light clip, I'd suggest at least not actively encouraging flight right now and halting any kind of recall training for the time being. All that will do is actively encourage him to start dive bombing you and attack you on the wing and increase his skills to do so. Male amazons are notorious for launching vicious arial attacks, which is why a light clip (not enough to inhibit flight, just to reign their abilities in a bit) for ones experiencing extreme aggression is often recommended. Of course that is a highly personal decision, but even if you opt not to clip, you shouldn't be encouraging flight right now either IMO.

In fact, no matter how well trained he may be, 'forget' he's been trained at all and think of him as a totally feral bird. Go back to the basics of training, just like you would be doing if you just brought him home yesterday and discovered this was his personality. Work on trust building in the cage, touch training, step up training. Buy a heavy glove he cannot bite through if need be to give you the confidence to work with him so even if he clamps down, you can not react because the glove is taking the brunt of it. That's what I ended up doing with my BFA because he was such a bad biter to get him trained up- glove and stick worked wonders. Whenever you react to a bite (yell, shake your hand to get the bird off etc..) they are unintentionally reinforced to keep biting (they find your reaction amusing or they figure out they can communicate by biting etc...). The best way to handle a bite is to show no reaction at all and stare them straight in the eye with a stern look to let them know this is not affecting you, will not yield them the result they want and is not an effective form of communication. We eventually worked up to the trust level he could step on my bare hand (though my BFA was a rescue who truly had no training, and was hormonal). It is very rare for Kiwi to bite these days.

Another thing of huge benefit I found were step up drills. Just a couple minutes stepping up and down (with praise) from various locations to reinforce good bird behavior and mutual trust. To this day, if my bird gets nippy, once he's calmed down, he gets to do a step up drill to reinforce positive interaction and good bird behavior (the avian equivalent of writing "I will not bite the teacher" on the board 100 times after class). And once everything has calmed down after a bite incident, I also always show Kiwi the wound and point at it while using a stern voice "what did you do, look at what you've done" and I swear he feels something of the birdy version of shame for what he has done.

I know this is a difficult time, but don't give up on Cleo! Remember, he is a bird, he's hormonal, he doesn't know what's happening to him (biologically) and is lashing out. Most owners with a male hot 3 amazon go through exactly what you are at the onset of puberty. Cleo's behavior is actually very typical. It may be disheartening, but it's something you just have to work through. Try the back to basics training stuff with him and see how that does, and seriously, no shame if you need to use a glove right now with him. Better that than a serious injury to yourself, an accident where he gets injured or having to rehome him. And get him stick trained! Every amazon should be stick trained. Keep your head up with your boy!

 

[Caccamo]

No offense at all.
It's hard. I don't give up and i restart training him. The problem it's the current situation; in the cage Cleo haven't problem, play with me, want scracth, play with target training and so on. So now in the past, when i reached this point of training, i started to traing him to step up in my hand/arm out of the cage, but now it's impossible. When i just put him out of the cage he start to have aggressive behaviour with me. It's really hard i don't know how to go on. Maybe i wait a week where i leave him always in the cage with a lot of my presence next to him, playing and training. After that i try to take him out form the cage and i'll see what happen.

 

[Caccamo]

Update:
Cleo spent last 2 days always in cage, an he was fair enough calm if i remain near him. He play with me with my finghers want many scracth and speak a lot with me and alone.
Something new it's happening often, when i play with him touching him with my fingers that he grabs to climb and play, sometimes he starts to perform the action to regurgitate, the action that the birds do to feed their babies. When happen i just remove my fingers and stop to play with him.
Some advice?

 

[Aquila]

Based on your video, I think your bird is male. All three of my amazons (All blue fronts) are hormonal, and have been for the last month. Both my males do the same behavior as your Cleo in the video.

Regurgitation is also a mating behavior, saying "I'm a good parent, look! I can feed your babies!" Don't touch his wings, back, or stomach at all, because these are areas that can be pleasurable and trigger hormonal reactions. If Cleo starts regurgitating, put him back on his cage and walk away for a few minutes until he calms down.

Hormonal amazons can be tough! But be very consistent in how you react and it should resolve soon!