Help please!!

[LordTriggs]

what I will say in regards to the vet is they may be less an actual Certified Avian Vet (Meaning they have taken extra time to receive specialist training to be accredited as an Avian Vet officially) and they could actually just be a general vet who also happens to see birds. All over the world there are vets who care more about bank accounts than pets and will see whatever is brought through the door because there's some money to be made. Unless you see their official accreditation I would distrust the vet. The fact they didn't run a single test screams to me that this is actually a general vet who wants to charge you as much as possible to do as little as possible

 

[Scott]

His daily diet is harrisons pellets veg and fruit.the vet we seen yesterday is a avian vet basically she chopped the toe and cortarised the end she said she did not want to put the collar on as It causes too much distress. Basically she said it was all genetic she wouldn't expect the little guy to live his full life and she assumed he wasn't getting his nutrition but never ran any tests am I missing something here??

If the vet is indeed "certified" and experienced, the comments carry greater weight. However, it *is* possible Sonny simply suffers from a very curable or manageable issue that can be detected with lab testing. If this were my bird, I'd be getting some basic testing for certain, and possibly seeking a second opinion depending on outcome.

 

[Redden88]

This is pretty worrying to be honest this is the second vet I have seen as the first one was just a normal vet that treat exotic animals and wasn't very helpful at all even suggesting we should put him down, so we got a second opinion off another vet this time according to Google was an avian vet these two vets are the only people within 60 mile radius that would see sonny so I'm really gutted that you guys think they are just taking my money.

Sonny has picked up really well in the last day I have to be honest it did ring alarm bells when they didn't do tests or put a collar on I really wish I could get him to his old vet but he moved 200 miles away

 

[Scott]

This is pretty worrying to be honest this is the second vet I have seen as the first one was just a normal vet that treat exotic animals and wasn't very helpful at all even suggesting we should put him down, so we got a second opinion off another vet this time according to Google was an avian vet these two vets are the only people within 60 mile radius that would see sonny so I'm really gutted that you guys think they are just taking my money.

Sonny has picked up really well in the last day I have to be honest it did ring alarm bells when they didn't do tests or put a collar on I really wish I could get him to his old vet but he moved 200 miles away

Asking the second (avian) vet some pointed questions may be beneficial. Some docs lack clear and welcoming communications skills, and may assume parronts don't want deeper information. Often helpful to have a list of questions before the visit.

 

[ChristaNL]

I just think you need to have a chat with your CAV.

Playing the devils advocate a bit (plze dont be mad):

Most people will see a deformed animal and will automatically say "Oh, he/she must be unable to live a good life- so be kind and put it out of its misery".
(and of course in a lot of cases they are right! Some people just let animals suffer, the ones you see on tv, youtube, read about etc. so it makes sense they are somewhat predisposed that way.)

Vets meet a lot of people who are unwilling or unable to pay much for vetcare, so they learn to operate "on the cheap" as a default and forget once in a while there is someone who is willing to take on a second mortgage if only the pet will be okay.

So maybe you should have a little talk about: do the work that is needed, not just the stuff that comes cheap?
Make sure he/she understands you are one of the special ones- not just the quick maintenance, but really good care as well.

 

[Redden88]

Quick update.... we have seen a third vet in 3 weeks today after travelling 120 miles we are exhausted

The vet said he has a unfixable condition called ring toe and basically his toes will eventually rot away but and it's a big but she said he has many more years left as long as the condition is treat properly with pain relief.

We have now got some pain relief gabapentin which is in a tablet form and a nerve agent called emla which is a cream the vet seemed to know her stuff so here is hoping we are on the right track now

 

[ChristaNL]

Wut?

Ringtoe sounds about what you read as number one reason baby parrots loose their toes in the nest: the ligament around the end of the toe contracts, trapping the bloodvessels so the toe (or part of it) swells up and because of the even more restricted boodflow the tissue dies eventually and the toe falls off--- but (in larger parrots anyway) it is treatable by cutting through that ligament on the 2 sides, freeing the bloodvessels and restoring (if caught in time) the perfusion of the tissue aka saving the toe.


Its just like wearing a ring on your finger that is too tight (and constricts even more in time)- just cut it in time and things are okay.


I can immagine with a smaller bird this is really tricky to do though.

 

[Laurasea]

You are going the extra mile literally! Good for you,!!! Did this vet do blood work???? Talk about why so thin?? You have a big heart and a little fellow with lots of issues, I'm glad he has you! Can you post feet pics?

 

[Redden88]

I appreciate them words thank you

I asked about blood test and she said she was happy with the diagnosis that it didn't need them

I spoke about his diet and again she was happy with what we feed him he left her a nice treat on her table and she said looking at his poo he was getting his requirements

We will see what happens next as its been a crazy week and in the meantime I will try and get some pics up of the little fella

 

[Scott]

I appreciate them words thank you

I asked about blood test and she said she was happy with the diagnosis that it didn't need them

I spoke about his diet and again she was happy with what we feed him he left her a nice treat on her table and she said looking at his poo he was getting his requirements

We will see what happens next as its been a crazy week and in the meantime I will try and get some pics up of the little fella

Please know I'm not trying to second-guess the work of multiple vets, and you've gone the extra miles, but hard to understand the efficacy of diagnosing and treating in the absence of lab tests. I suppose highly experienced vets may take comfort from "pigeon holing" based on global symptoms they have seen endless times?

 

[Redden88]

To be honest mate I've been questioning everything the vets have done from the very start. yesterday was the first time I've even been told a diagnose apart from club foot which is pretty obvious.

I'm not sure why three vets one specialised aav would all not do blood tests and after even asking and asking about a collar they insist on not putting a collar on the bird reasons being given it is too distressful and will do more harm than good due to his pin feathers.

The little guy is really going through the mill and we are running out of options he stayed in his night case last night and we only had a minimal amount of blood this morning so hopefully he had his sleep and we have turned a corner.

 

[ChristaNL]

The first 48 hours are the worst (the bleeding) - if he does not start picking on the scabs it will heal just fine.


Questioning things is always good, I just hope it does not drive you up the walls though.


Just remember YOU are doing the best you can for as long as you can and that is pretty good all by itself.

 

[Redden88]

That is what the little sod is doing just nipping the scabs off so it's taking its time to heal we are just over the 48hr mark so fingers crossed

I've got to be honest it's taking its toll on us all at the moment some normality would be great

 

[Laurasea]

Wher are you located, what part of the world? I feel so frustrated that the vets ate treating the FEET but not treating the WHOLE BIRD!!! You need to treat the whole bird!! At 64 grams unless this is a tinier than a GCC conure quaker he is very very thin. If you are feeding correctly then your burden has some type if absorption problem, rule out parasites like giardia, rule out bacterial infection, rule out fungal or yeast infection, rule out imbalance in vit & minerals, rule out viral infection. EVEN a completely healthy bird needs routine CBC , chemistry (organ function panal) and a fecal gram stain , you also need a fecal float, a fecal cytology or saline wet mount, abd probably a fecal culture. To help your bird some what I would again recommend probiotics, a small amount if scrambled eggs or boiled eggs, and foods high I'm vit A like red chilli peppers, red or orange bell peppers, carrots, pumpkin, a mineral blocks, cuttle bone, you can also offer boiled egg shells but remove daily. You can offer millit it's higher in fat and will keep him occupied instead if picking feet, I would also offer those treat sticks for the same reason keep that beak busy, and he needs more calories...

 

[Redden88]

We are from the North East of England. Trust me when I say there is nobody more frustrated than me. we have travelled miles to see three vets and still have a sick bird. I totally agree about treating the bird and not the foot but what am I meant to do these people are meant to be professionals you seem a very clever lady and no a lot more than me but the vet basically said he is malnourished that's the reason he's under weight . I will look into probiotics straight away is there any you recommend?? .he loves millet so will give him some of that and eggs I will start him on them first thing tomorrow. he's been eating peppers today so that's a start

 

[ChristaNL]

You can always call my vets (CAV, though the students usually pick up) for free.
They have this one-hour-a-day-hotline for questions (probably to train the students in on their feet thinking) but there is always a real CAV on call as well.
So if you don't mind the long distance call ...

 

[Laurasea]

Redden 88,I am sure you are frustrated, especially after making a huge drive for better care. You can feed him live active culture yogurt low sugar no artificial sweeteners kind, plain or with fruit , amount about the size of your thumb or half a teaspoon once a day. I am not a vet but the live cultures in yogurts ate the same as the powder ki d if probiotics they sell at the pet store for birds here in the states. I feed mine the yogurt and they are doing great, I feed about twice a week. Don't keep the yogurt after you open it for one feeding you will have to eat the rest or toss it use fresh every time! I learned about probiotics from Noodles and EllenD here on the forum when my GCC had a yeast problem fixed her in three days! From the research I did hot red chilli peppers seem the most nutritious. You can feed dandelion greens organic from grocery store, quakers seen to relish their greens and veggies, radish is good for the liver so feed that and if organic you can feed those greens too, cooked oatmeal, cooked pumpkin or raw, all Yellow and orange veggies have but a which is good for immune system..pine nuts walnuts and almonds too have vit e I think but have essentiall fatty acids do not feed penuts. If you haven't already check out all the safe veggies list and feed as many as you can. Cherries plums and blackberries are very good too just three times a week.. sometimes real food and real nutrition can really help! Peas have iron in them since he had had some blood loss, but iron is bad for birds , but I never heard of anyone have problems from feeding peas.. Anyway I want your little one better! I am a very firm believer in real sunshine too, but I guess it's cold where you are so something for be to year.

 

[EllenD]

I agree that not doing any blood-work or even a Fecal Culture on a Quaker who weighs only 64 grams is totally illogical, as is not putting a collar on a bird because it would be "too stressful for him" when he's constantly chewing his incisions apart. He could be suffering from a very treatable metabolic condition and only need a daily medication to start processing his nutrition and absorbing it as well. At 64 grams he's half the size a Quaker should be...

Realize it has nothing at all to do with what you are feeding him, and the Vets who say "his diet is good" aren't wrong, however they should know that it doesn't make any difference what you feed him if his body cannot properly absorb the nutrition from it. I'm sorry that the Vets around you are acting this way, as doing a routine blood-work panel would be the very first thing my CAV would have done, along with a Fecal Culture...

And the "ring-toe" thing, well, Christa said it very well...

 

[Redden88]

Thank you for all the advice. I'm devastated to think I've seen three vets and not one of them has suggested anything you ladies have said.,it just seems like pure neglect on there behalf but I don't understand why?? I'm willing to pay them as much as it takes to get this little fella right but not one of the seems to give a monkeys the collar and no bloods is baffling me. when he had his toe removed 5 years ago the original vets put a collar on no problem but this time they wouldn't even take his toe off its absolutely crazy this I don't no what more I can do for the little guy would you recommend buying my own collar??

 

[TiredOldMan]

IMHO yes get your own collar and use it.