Help with trust

[Birdman666]

I believe Richard's take on Flock Dynamics is entirely correct.

THE FLOCK SENTRIES are in the highest branches of the tree. Those are the hyper vigilant birds, that alert everyone else when anything approaching danger is there.

"The wild, neurotic, nervous birds."

DOMINANCE within the flock really does relate to nest sites. Lose your nest site and you're a homeless bird who doesn't get to breed. MESS WITH MY NEST, AND WE ARE GOING TO WAR.... which is why we get territorial aggression in captive birds.

Their brains are hard wired to protect their nest, and they can be quite fierce about it at times.

Same deal applies with mate aggression... "That's MY mate, stay away from her."

 

[Birdman666]

Now, much as I am enjoying this topic, it occurs to me that we have meandered away from the OP's original questions.

Help with trust. Should he take her out of the cage despite her having once flown over and bitten him on the cheek. Will doing so within the smaller environs of his 13' x 14' bedroom make a difference in this scenario. Let's bring our focus, and collective experience, back to the OP.

I actually already gave my opinion on that before going off on the tangent about the height dominance theory [WRONG!], and mentioned flooding as a way of dealing with this [WORSE!], and flock hierarchy [Agreed].

Clip the bird first to protect yourself, and use the two towel method.

Offer him treats, but he only gets them if he's gentle.

Sit next to the cage and talk to him. Read a book or something. Ignore him.

Play with a bird toy yourself. Then set it down next to you. See if he gets curious and comes to check it out. Don't make any sudden movements, at some point acknowledge his presence but do nothing... Let him come down, and explore. Let him learn you're not going to attach him/you're not a threat. Let HIM start craving your attention - THEN GIVE HIM WHAT HE'S CRAVING.

Then: Gradual desensitization training, i.e. gradually exposing the bird to increasing startle stimulous over time until the things that startle/spook him just don't anymore, combined with basic step up/no bite training.

For now: Pay particular attention to his body language. What is your bird telling you when you approach him? If he's doing the territorial intrusion displays, then you need to get him comfortable with you FIRST...

If he recoils in horror he's afraid... etc. LEARN HIS LANGUAGE... ALL THAT STUFF MEANS SOMETHING.

UNDERSTAND THE BODY LANGUAGE. Are you forcing the issue with a zon who's giving you territorial intrusion warnings?! IF SO, YOU'LL GET BIT EVERY TIME...

 

[Birdman666]

Mark, on the other hand, is disputing height dominance. Not flock hierarchies. (And given the multiple references to Sally as flock leader, I reckon you both see pretty much eye to eye on the flock dynamic.)

I want to clear something up for some who may be passively interested in this topic. Richard and I agree 100% on the flock dynamic principles, and I have used this to my advantage countless times when rehabbing birds... the birds themselves reinforce the rules... they learn from each other once you establish the flock ettiquite...

As for Sally being the flock leader, she is... BUT I see absolutely NO relationship between where she hangs out in the tree, and her status in the flock.

Sally is one of my Original birds. She was the ONLY large parrot I had for several years. EVEN WHEN THERE WAS NO FLOCK TO LEAD. I took her out and let her play in trees, AND SHE WENT UP TO, OR NEAR THE TOP every time.

BUT I ALSO LIVED IN THE AMAZON RAIN FOREST. I'VE SEEN THE WILD MACS AND ZONS BEHAVIORS FIRST HAND. THE SENTRIES AND THE OUTCAST BIRDS ARE KEPT ON THE PERIPHERY... THE FLOCK LEADERS ARE SURROUNDED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FLOCK, AND THEY ARE LOWER AND CLOSER TO THE TREE TRUNK.

So this whole theory is just completely flawed, and not based on fact, in my opinion.

YOU CAN TELL WHO THE FLOCK LEADER IS BECAUSE THE OTHER BIRDS FOLLOW THEIR LEAD!!! That is how you know. Maggie is about six or seven times Sally's size. When Sally gets her dander up, if she gets challenged, Maggie has her back, and defers to her, i.e. follows her lead...

ALL OF THEM FOLLOW MY LEAD.... I AM THE NON-BIRD FLOCK LEADER.

 

[henpecked]

I live with a flock of zons. Most are in cages , some are upstairs some are downstairs some are outside. Collectively they are a flock. Within that flock, there are leaders, instigators and policemen. The roles haven't changed in the last 30 yrs.Sorry,o p didn't mean to steal your thread.

 

[Birdman666]

I live with a flock of zons. Most are in cages , some are upstairs some are downstairs some are outside. Collectively they are a flock. Within that flock, there are leaders, instigators and policemen. The roles haven't changed in the last 30 yrs.Sorry,o p didn't mean to steal your thread.

My leaders are also the policemen. Sally and Maggie. They keep everyone else in line.

My instigators would be Tusk and Sweepea...

Lila is as passive a zon as you've ever met, as long as I've got a food bowl, and my CAG buddy... it's all good.

And Kiwi is 100% good time, lover bird...

 

[MonicaMc]

I was just going to post these links....

Study Reports

Pionus Parrots' Wild Habits



And from this link, quoting this...

First, if you put an animal in an unnatural environment you can expect some unnatural behavior.

Plus, it is not uncommon to see some forms of hierarchies in captive pet parrots. Again, unnatural environments encourage unnatural behavior. Confined groups of parrots in small environments will most likely work out dominance hierarchies. However, if these same birds were in the wild they would not be forced into these close relationships and they would surely avoid aggressive encounters with the other parrots.

And a quote from -> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/19/science/the-big-search-to-find-out-where-dogs-come-from.html?_r=0

Modern dogs are different from modern wolves in numerous ways. They eat comfortably in the presence of people, whereas wolves do not. Their skulls are wider and snouts shorter. They do not live in pack structures when they are on their own, and so some scientists scoff at dog-training approaches that require the human to act as pack leader.

And this link which I found very informative! (someone once informed me that the goose in front of the V formation is the dominant bird. This proves otherwise)

https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/mysteries/geese.html





JoeJoe hasn't been here for 11 days. I hope he's still around!

 

[JoeJoe]

WOW! First off, thanks to everyone who has been contributing to this thread. I apologize for not answering the first reply. I expected to receive an email from parrot forum saying that it was replied to. But I did not, so I got down and of course my amazon did not come out that day. Heh!

So I read so far most of the first page of replies. Let me explain the situation of where she is from. She was purchased from a woman who had her because Kelly's (my amazon) old owner passed away from old age. The woman who had her rescued Kelly from being kept at an Animal Shelter such as the SPCA, I believe. So Kelly I imagine was a little shaken up by being brought to this shelter by people who likely didn't handle these types of birds often. Anyways, Kelly was supposed to be about 17 years old when I bought her in the month of July 2014. (She) was being taken out of her cage at our old home and she never bit anyone. She was VERY good outside of the cage and could be trusted. Sometimes we would see cage aggression but that seemed normal at the time.

That year, we made a move to another state where we now live. It was about a 30 hour trip for Kelly and the rest of my animals (All made it except one of my lovebirds who wasn't in the best of health). So this is the story of my zon.

I should add that when she attacked me it was in the other room where I was living. I got the idea she didn't like the room (which is a converted garage) very much. Might have been the lighting being so limited.

So, she showed me ( And believe me this sounds a bit over the top)
but as a Zon is being aggressive, reach under their wings and
with the four fingers of each hand, place it up all the way under their arm pits and flip them up against your chest where their back is up against you
and beak is out of reach from your chin and neck.

They are helpless at this stage, and softly say it's ok, it's alright.
Sounds pointless I know. You see sometimes Zons will view you as weaker than them, they don't know the difference, yet. In the wild, the stronger will dominate and be the alpha of the flock.
Your establishing this here.

This is helpful, Hawk. I believe she thinks this about me that she is the alpha bird. I will keep this in mind while training Kelly.

 

[JerseyWendy]

WOW! First off, thanks to everyone who has been contributing to this thread. I apologize for not answering the first reply. I expected to receive an email from parrot forum saying that it was replied to. But I did not, so I got down and of course my amazon did not come out that day. Heh!

JoeJoe, if you go to the top screen, In the middle look for ‘UserCP’. Click on that. Look to the left and find “Edit Options” and click it. Now in the middle of the screen look for: Default Thread Subscription Mode

Make sure you have this option ENABLED. Then you will receive email notifications from now on. Hope this helped.

 

[JoeJoe]

This was Kelly in the old room .

 

[MonicaMc]

Before you try any flooding techniques, please read articles or get in touch with Barbara Heidenreich, Susan Friedman and Lara Joseph.

Barbara Heidenreich
Training Parrots | Parrot Training DVDS & Books
Barbara's Force Free Animal Training Talk

Susan Friedman
Written Works: Learning and Behavior - BehaviorWorks.com

Lara Joseph
The Animal behavior Center is an Educational Center
https://larajoseph.wordpress.com/

Hillary Hankey is great as well!
Learning Parrots | Empowering the learners in our households