Moluccan x Major Mitchell Cockatoo hybrid (?)

[EllenD]

And all we are saying is; why take the risk? What BENEFIT is there to the birds involved?


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I think this statement says it all, everything that needs to be said. And the OP could not answer the question, only respond that they didn't think that the birds were at risk if they were well supervised; this response by the OP also says it all, as I don't recall ever hearing of birds breeding in their natural habitats while under human supervision to assure that nothing happens to them. If we as humans have to force two species of birds to breed by putting them together, doing everything we can to influence them and will them to want to mate with each other, and then have to closely supervise this forced pairing to ensure they don't kill each other in the process, perhaps this little project isn't such a good idea, aye?

If you can't come up with a single way in which forcefully breeding two separate species of birds benefits THE BIRDS THEMSELVES, then you've only doing it to benefit yourself, or people in general. Calculating what the financial gain for the breeders that want to participate in creating hybrid bird species could potentially be should immediately send up a red flag as to the ethics involved, or a lack thereof.

The idea that forcing this pairing would create a desirable hybrid Cockatoo species isn't a good enough reason to try to do it. Sorry, but we need to put the welfare of birds first for a change. Stating that the risk to the bird's involved would be minimal as long as we were "responsible" supervisors is not giving a benefit.

"Dance like nobody's watching..."

 

[Dinosrawr]

It's as simple as this - ethical breeders do exactly as what has been mentioned, they breed to BETTER a species or breed. They don't do it because "it looks cool".

If I were interested in a mixed species, especially in parrots, I would look to a rescue. But that's because I don't believe in supporting people who don't think about the well being of an animal that's in their care.

 

[adz1984]

Didn't find anything on moloccan x major but did find a major x rose breasted baby for sale here

 

[MeowMeow]

A very interesting way to start on Parrot Forums!

Not sure if you are just stirring a pot or playing mind games.

Why not just start all over with a proper introduction!

There is nothing like the cold reality of time to determine the reasoning: Playing Mind Games.

If this was simply you wanting to have such a Parrot. You would have found a Breeder to force the union, had the eggs mechanically brooded, Human weened and fledged the chick(s). Custom parrots are only a matter of something less than ten thousand US dollars, that's pocket change for you.

I would either do that . . . or I would ask a group of parrot enthusiasts.

And all we are saying is; why take the risk? What BENEFIT is there to the birds involved?





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There shouldn't be any risk involved if the birds are properly tended to

No single act is required to benefit all that follow it

And all we are saying is; why take the risk? What BENEFIT is there to the birds involved?


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There shouldn't be any risk involved if the birds are properly tended to

Very well, but what is the benefit? Satisfaction of curiosity? Betterment of one or both species?

The benefit to the species is not necessary but the possibility can't be explored until it happens

One of the primary arguments advanced in favor of keeping parrots as captive pets - which so often ends in years of bitter suffering for the parrots - is that captive breeding maintains a genetic reservoir in case the bird becomes extinct in the wild. Leaving aside the fact that some parrots are endangered solely because of the "pet" trade, the argument is only valid as far as it applies to ethical breeding: selection of proper stock, not propagating birds with genetic weaknesses, proper training so babies don't die if they must be hand fed, proper medical care and pleasant living conditions for the birds.

Do I care if you mix a poodle and a collie? Not at all. In the first place, they aren't separate species, just cosmetic variants of a single one. Domestic dogs aren't going extinct in the wild because they don't exist in the wild. But if you breed a poodle and a wolf i begin to feel uneasy. If it's an interesting mix it will happen again, and the chances are some poodle lover will wind up with adult woodle that he can't manage, and it gets put on a chain in a backyard, or sold to a "good home" that is really a dog fighting ring. If there is a move to reestablish breeding wolves into a prior range in the wild where they are now extinct, these hybrids could be a source of gene pollution.

With parrots, the ONLY advantage of a hybrid is human pleasure - to satisfy curiosity, to possess something unique as a source of pride, or for the pleasure of looking at them. Are any of these intrinsically wrong? Let's not say wrong or right....but the human tendency to chase after novelty, pride and pleasure does not always work out well. We must have he newest shiny thing, and when it becomes worn as all things do it goes in the trash. Which often means polluting the land, the ocean, or poisoning the people who recycle the valuable parts. Plus it takes fuel to extract the raw materials and to make the thing in the first place, hence Dakota Access Pioeline, oil sand devastation in Canada, drilling in the arctic refuge, you get the picture. Indulging our desire for pleasure does not usually benefit the earth. Or us either. Who becomes more patient, more loving, more compassionate from getting a new iPhone every six months? How does it help us become more mindful, more aware? Is it legal to chase after pleasure? Of course. Does it build character and wisdom? Maybe not so much.

Chasing pleasure is not the same as pursuing happiness, or as taking pleasure in life. I can enjoy a beautiful sunset, and get out of my chair to go to a better vantage point, and that doesn't hurt anybody much. If I drive to the top of the hill in the next county, that does cause a little more suffering - I need a car, and gas etc. and my actions in concert with a million other people doing the same thing has a real impact. If such a simple thing has complex repercussions...it's hard to keep thinking about it...no wonder we have so much TV/internet/booze/heroin/texting/etc to distract us.

So cross-breeding captive birds, yah, it has repercussions. Take African Grey parrots which are terribly endangered in their native habitats because of illegal trapping for the lucrative pet trade. Forget for now how many suffer and die in the wild, during capture, during transport, in being forced into unnatural environments with humans who don't know or don't care to treat them right. I'm not seeing any upside for an intelligent bird in this. Oh, but captive breeding to the rescue, it maintains the gene pool, keeps them from going extinct, no more horrific poaching and trafficking! Well, then maintain the gene pool...don't breed defective birds...don't sell them to unprepared or uneducated humans...keep a record of the lineage to prevent inbreeding. Which won't happen because it interferes with our right to make money on stupid birds, for crissake, I can't afford to do all that, I just got these two siblings and it's my right to breed them if I want to and if someone wants to buy them. Right? Who cares if I only got a CAG and a TAG, a gray bird is a gray bird. Right?

With an endangered species it becomes even more important to keep the captive gene pool as pure as possible. One hybrid of itself doesn't do any harm, other than reduce the size of the pool, but if it becomes popular and everybody starts to want one that's a problem. If it breeds back into the pure population it's a problem. Now you have introduced subtle and major genetic changes into the species which will be impossible to remove and make any future reintroduction of wild populations difficult.

Hence the arguments made against, hence the repeated asking "what's in it for the birds".

It's far beyond unlikely that anything you can do will make parrot breeding mainstream, so the breeding is unlikely to change anything.

If the hybrid were to made the same amount of breeding stock in the general population of captive birds would still exist.

It's as simple as this - ethical breeders do exactly as what has been mentioned, they breed to BETTER a species or breed. They don't do it because "it looks cool".

If I were interested in a mixed species, especially in parrots, I would look to a rescue. But that's because I don't believe in supporting people who don't think about the well being of an animal that's in their care.

Exotic Red Factor African Greys For Sale - Home

Didn't find anything on moloccan x major but did find a major x rose breasted baby for sale here

Looks much like the regular Major Mitchell, thanks for sharing.

 

[SilverSage]

Are you kidding? That does not look like a major mitchel, but I was thinking it looked more like an MM crossed with a ducorps.

Also I think you will find that if, as stated above, you don't care about benefiting the birds, you won't find support for your ideas here. We are pretty passionate about parrot welfare in this group.


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[Scott]

Also I think you will find that if, as stated above, you don't care about benefiting the birds, you won't find support for your ideas here. We are pretty passionate about parrot welfare in this group.


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Precisely! The OP thesis plays well in a cold and calculated discussion to explore theoretical breeding conjugations. Not much interest here for Frankenparrots simply because their DNA can be synthesized and hatched!

We are not an insular group but rather an inviting crowd eager for new members to share and celebrate love for all things feathered. Context is crucial, and the OP suddenly appears with all manner of hypotheses. It would be helpful to first establish a relationship before diving into the netherworld of arcane breeding. Show us your passion and innate interest in the world of avians!

 

[Dinosrawr]

Just because it has been done, doesn't mean it should be. As Silversage mentioned, you won't any support from us no matter how many links you provide or comments you make. I can certainly find all of those fancy colours myself, but it doesn't mean I'm interested in them. I'm interested in keeping parrots healthy, long-lived, and if their species is vulnerable then keeping them unmixed. It's difficult to have healthy breeding stock if you're looking for only a specific colour. When you focus on just one aspect of breeding, all others tend to slide.

And honestly, you seem to be missing one critical factor here and that's love for parrots. Your posts remind me of people who buy birds for furniture ornaments because they're pretty.

 

[Owlet]

The benefit to the species is not necessary but the possibility can't be explored until it happens

Um, yeah it can? There's these useful things called 'simulations' that let us know what could go disastrously wrong in a scenario. Ever heard of invasive species? Hybrid birds are native to absolutely no where or if you take into account the parent regions then they may be native to two completely DIFFERENT regions which makes it all the more likely they could adapt, breed, and become invasive given the chance. Not to mention the health risks in two such different birds.

 

[MeowMeow]

Just because it has been done, doesn't mean it should be. As Silversage mentioned, you won't any support from us no matter how many links you provide or comments you make. I can certainly find all of those fancy colours myself, but it doesn't mean I'm interested in them. I'm interested in keeping parrots healthy, long-lived, and if their species is vulnerable then keeping them unmixed. It's difficult to have healthy breeding stock if you're looking for only a specific colour. When you focus on just one aspect of breeding, all others tend to slide.

And honestly, you seem to be missing one critical factor here and that's love for parrots. Your posts remind me of people who buy birds for furniture ornaments because they're pretty.

Well that's a leap of conjecture.

The benefit to the species is not necessary but the possibility can't be explored until it happens

Um, yeah it can? There's these useful things called 'simulations' that let us know what could go disastrously wrong in a scenario. Ever heard of invasive species? Hybrid birds are native to absolutely no where or if you take into account the parent regions then they may be native to two completely DIFFERENT regions which makes it all the more likely they could adapt, breed, and become invasive given the chance. Not to mention the health risks in two such different birds.

Fine, I'll be satisfied with said simulation.

They're all hybrids. They didn't rise from the ground.

 

[Dinosrawr]

I haven't read much from you that has to do with a parrot's well being, only posts to prove your point that hybridization can happen. The only positive thing you've mentioned is genetic diversity. Fortunately genetic diversity is plentiful when we keep our species carefully and ethically well-bred.

And hybridization does happen in the wild on occasion, you're right. But there's a reason that hybridized species are a rarity in the wild. They're often rejected by both species they've been a cross between. Same with specialized colours - birds have evolved to have specific colours for their own species to identify as healthy and as suitable mates. Generally any colour deviation is short lived because they don't blend well with their environment or they become easy targets for predators.

So yes, breed hybridization can happen.

Sure, it looks cool on a superficial level.

Yeah, breeders could start doing it and yes, there are many that have.

But you're forgetting the most important question that has been brought up over and over - how does this benefit the species of the bird? How does this make the species healthier, longer lived, with a better temperament and better suited for living in captivity? Does it help keep genetic diversity available for captive breeding for endangered species?

If you can't answer yes to at least 95% of that, then then breeding is being done for the wrong reasons and you need to be diligent enough to not support it. Too many animals suffer at the hands of humans because we think "it looks awesome" or because "I love my pet and want more". We think only of ourselves and not of the animal whose life we have control over. They are victims of circumstance.

So yes, I'll make such a conjecture.

 

[SilverSage]

"The benefit to the species is not necessary"???

REALLY??

You claim it's a "leap of conjecture" to say that you don't care about the welfare of the birds involved yet TWICE you have stated that their benefit doesn't matter to you.

"They're all hybrids. They didn't rise from the ground."

Again; REALLY? Evolutionist or Creationist, we know that species development is completely different than hybridization. In some limited cases they work together, but these two species DONT BREED IN THE WILD. In fact, part of what determines which kinds of animals are categorized as different species instead of sub species is exactly that; given overlapping habitats they do not choose to interbreed. So claiming that this is somehow natural and normal is just faulty science.



I'll take comfort in that fact that you clearly lack the knowledge to make this happen. You gave that away when you said there was no risk involved in trying to force two species of cockatoo to hybridize. There is ALWAYS risk! Even "easy breeders" like budgies can enact horrible bloody violence on each other with no warning. This week I lost an entire clutch of Ringnecks to an attack BY THEIR PARENTS. You want the gory details? The babies were literally decapitated, torn limb from limb, chewed to pieces and thrown out of the nest. I don't know why. It was out of the blue; a shocking event that left me vomiting and sobbing.

But I press on; why? Is it for money? No, but even if it was that was $1500 down the toilet without even a chance to save them.

I press on because I'm working to BETTER THE SPECIES and BETTER THE LIVES of parrots around the world. I'm also working to BETTER MY KNOWLEDGE not just so I can help others but also because someday I want to breed critically endangered species for reintroduction into their natural habitats. Every death, illness, or injury in my flock is a step toward saving a species on the brink of extinction. They are tiny steps, micro steps even, but they are VITAL.


So I press on. I suffer the losses, I sink thousands of dollars into equipment so I can learn to incubate eggs, even the tiniest eggs, and feed day1 chicks, even the weakest chicks, and save even the sickest birds, and coax even the most stubborn birds to eat a good diet, to breed, to raise healthy chicks, to find the right pairs; I breed so I can learn a thousand tiny details to better life for parrots in my country and the world, and to save us from losing more of these magnificent animals.

So pardon me if I wrinkle my nose at your claims of "no risk" and your selfish attitude that the benefit of the species isn't important as long as you get a giant pink bird with a cool crest.


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[SilleIN]

Let me try to stop this pretty much useless waste of time.

I have seen hybrids between MM and Umbrella. There is not much difference between Umbrella and Moluccan, so yes, it can be done!

 

[Scott]

Let me try to stop this pretty much useless waste of time.

I have seen hybrids between MM and Umbrella. There is not much difference between Umbrella and Moluccan, so yes, it can be done!

Curious to learn the circumstances of MM x Umbrella. A desire for a new hybrid, accidental breeding, or less likely, a chance spotting of an encounter in the wild?

 

[MeowMeow]

"The benefit to the species is not necessary"???

REALLY??

You claim it's a "leap of conjecture" to say that you don't care about the welfare of the birds involved yet TWICE you have stated that their benefit doesn't matter to you.

"They're all hybrids. They didn't rise from the ground."

Again; REALLY? Evolutionist or Creationist, we know that species development is completely different than hybridization. In some limited cases they work together, but these two species DONT BREED IN THE WILD. In fact, part of what determines which kinds of animals are categorized as different species instead of sub species is exactly that; given overlapping habitats they do not choose to interbreed. So claiming that this is somehow natural and normal is just faulty science.



I'll take comfort in that fact that you clearly lack the knowledge to make this happen. You gave that away when you said there was no risk involved in trying to force two species of cockatoo to hybridize. There is ALWAYS risk! Even "easy breeders" like budgies can enact horrible bloody violence on each other with no warning. This week I lost an entire clutch of Ringnecks to an attack BY THEIR PARENTS. You want the gory details? The babies were literally decapitated, torn limb from limb, chewed to pieces and thrown out of the nest. I don't know why. It was out of the blue; a shocking event that left me vomiting and sobbing.

But I press on; why? Is it for money? No, but even if it was that was $1500 down the toilet without even a chance to save them.

I press on because I'm working to BETTER THE SPECIES and BETTER THE LIVES of parrots around the world. I'm also working to BETTER MY KNOWLEDGE not just so I can help others but also because someday I want to breed critically endangered species for reintroduction into their natural habitats. Every death, illness, or injury in my flock is a step toward saving a species on the brink of extinction. They are tiny steps, micro steps even, but they are VITAL.


So I press on. I suffer the losses, I sink thousands of dollars into equipment so I can learn to incubate eggs, even the tiniest eggs, and feed day1 chicks, even the weakest chicks, and save even the sickest birds, and coax even the most stubborn birds to eat a good diet, to breed, to raise healthy chicks, to find the right pairs; I breed so I can learn a thousand tiny details to better life for parrots in my country and the world, and to save us from losing more of these magnificent animals.

So pardon me if I wrinkle my nose at your claims of "no risk" and your selfish attitude that the benefit of the species isn't important as long as you get a giant pink bird with a cool crest.


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You're conflating issues that are barely connected - the welfare of the species versus the welfare of the two birds involved. You'd have to be extremely vain and narcissistic to believe that two birds breeding is going to effect an entire species.


You're ignoring science and projecting your fears onto - YOU lost a clutch of birds, not me, you have to remember that your limitations are not the proper measure of limitations. You'd have to be extremely naive to not believe that hybridization played a role in species development.

 

[Scott]

You're conflating issues that are barely connected - the welfare of the species versus the welfare of the two birds involved. You'd have to be extremely vain and narcissistic to believe that two birds breeding is going to effect an entire species.


You're ignoring science and projecting your fears onto - YOU lost a clutch of birds, not me, you have to remember that your limitations are not the proper measure of limitations. You'd have to be extremely naive to not believe that hybridization played a role in species development.

What is your end game to this discussion? It is abundantly clear none of the participants are interested in descending into a rabbit hole of gratuitous speculation. If you have a thesis that hybridization is ultimately helpful to the species, share the background.

 

[MeowMeow]

You're conflating issues that are barely connected - the welfare of the species versus the welfare of the two birds involved. You'd have to be extremely vain and narcissistic to believe that two birds breeding is going to effect an entire species.


You're ignoring science and projecting your fears onto - YOU lost a clutch of birds, not me, you have to remember that your limitations are not the proper measure of limitations. You'd have to be extremely naive to not believe that hybridization played a role in species development.

What is your end game to this discussion? It is abundantly clear none of the participants are interested in descending into a rabbit hole of gratuitous speculation. If you have a thesis that hybridization is ultimately helpful to the species, share the background.

To find people that may of seen this hybrid. Perhaps to get some information on the breeding "simulation" that was mentioned earlier

There is usually the benefit of "hybrid vigor"

 

[Scott]

To find people that may of seen this hybrid. Perhaps to get some information on the breeding "simulation" that was mentioned earlier

There is usually the benefit of "hybrid vigor"

You may find these helpful:

https://journals.tdl.org/watchbird/index.php/watchbird/article/viewFile/2180/2154

Hybrid Birds - Real Cockatoo Facts!

Q template

 

[Owlet]

Just because it has been done, doesn't mean it should be. As Silversage mentioned, you won't any support from us no matter how many links you provide or comments you make. I can certainly find all of those fancy colours myself, but it doesn't mean I'm interested in them. I'm interested in keeping parrots healthy, long-lived, and if their species is vulnerable then keeping them unmixed. It's difficult to have healthy breeding stock if you're looking for only a specific colour. When you focus on just one aspect of breeding, all others tend to slide.

And honestly, you seem to be missing one critical factor here and that's love for parrots. Your posts remind me of people who buy birds for furniture ornaments because they're pretty.

Well that's a leap of conjecture.

The benefit to the species is not necessary but the possibility can't be explored until it happens

Um, yeah it can? There's these useful things called 'simulations' that let us know what could go disastrously wrong in a scenario. Ever heard of invasive species? Hybrid birds are native to absolutely no where or if you take into account the parent regions then they may be native to two completely DIFFERENT regions which makes it all the more likely they could adapt, breed, and become invasive given the chance. Not to mention the health risks in two such different birds.

Fine, I'll be satisfied with said simulation.

They're all hybrids. They didn't rise from the ground.

We don't know the origin of life itself, but we do know is it started SOMEWHERE and adapted and evolved over time. So they're not necessarily hybrids but they are at the same time. This is entirely different, that took place over millions, billions of years, this would be maybe 100 years if the cockatoo lives its max life which it likely won't because it's a hybrid of two different genuses and will have many health problems. Now you didn't even on my invasive comment. I'd like to add on that that even animals that ARE native to regions can be considered invasive. I.E, ground hogs, wasps, flies, etc. Now these ones are more of an annoyance than anything else really but any invasive species has the possibility of being harmful.

 

[MeowMeow]

Just because it has been done, doesn't mean it should be. As Silversage mentioned, you won't any support from us no matter how many links you provide or comments you make. I can certainly find all of those fancy colours myself, but it doesn't mean I'm interested in them. I'm interested in keeping parrots healthy, long-lived, and if their species is vulnerable then keeping them unmixed. It's difficult to have healthy breeding stock if you're looking for only a specific colour. When you focus on just one aspect of breeding, all others tend to slide.

And honestly, you seem to be missing one critical factor here and that's love for parrots. Your posts remind me of people who buy birds for furniture ornaments because they're pretty.

Well that's a leap of conjecture.

Um, yeah it can? There's these useful things called 'simulations' that let us know what could go disastrously wrong in a scenario. Ever heard of invasive species? Hybrid birds are native to absolutely no where or if you take into account the parent regions then they may be native to two completely DIFFERENT regions which makes it all the more likely they could adapt, breed, and become invasive given the chance. Not to mention the health risks in two such different birds.

Fine, I'll be satisfied with said simulation.

They're all hybrids. They didn't rise from the ground.

We don't know the origin of life itself, but we do know is it started SOMEWHERE and adapted and evolved over time. So they're not necessarily hybrids but they are at the same time. This is entirely different, that took place over millions, billions of years, this would be maybe 100 years if the cockatoo lives its max life which it likely won't because it's a hybrid of two different genuses and will have many health problems. Now you didn't even on my invasive comment. I'd like to add on that that even animals that ARE native to regions can be considered invasive. I.E, ground hogs, wasps, flies, etc. Now these ones are more of an annoyance than anything else really but any invasive species has the possibility of being harmful.

You don't think all cockatoos share common ancestors? Not just generally but in an immediate sense, this is a bit obvious to me.

 

[SilleIN]

Curious to learn the circumstances of MM x Umbrella. A desire for a new hybrid, accidental breeding, or less likely, a chance spotting of an encounter in the wild?

The umbrella cockatoo was a breeders daugthers pet bird. The breeder was breeding MM2 and the umbrella and a MM paired up and they didn't have the heart to split them up, so now they make hybrid babies on a regular basis.