Newly Rehomed Eclectus Behaviour

[Fleabane]

Hi All

Ive very recently invited Harry to share our home.

He arrived very late Wednesday evening having spent 14 hours in a small cage in a large transit van (from the breeder)

I understand the process of rehoming older birds (he's two) takes lots and lots of time so we are spending lots and lots of time in the same room, talking, eating, working alongside him

He has settled in his cage well, plays with his fruit and veg but clearly has spent too much time eating seed.

When I was cleaning his yesterday he came out and sat on top for a long time, very relaxed with one foot tucked up, once he was hungry he went back in and I closed his cage door.

He is nervous of hands, will take food but will also endeavour to bite with an accompanying growl - not surprising given the trauma of the last few days and I hope this will go once he has become used to us and realises all is good.

However he does a weird begging thing - see video here:[ame=http://youtu.be/TrLk8WmKFAk]IMG 0280 - YouTube[/ame]

After which if allowed he will come out and sit on his cage, when you go near if he has his beak through the cage he will allow you to scratch it and doesn't attempt to nip. Can anyone tell me what it means and what I should do as a response. He does it a lot!

Apart from this a few questions:

Re food - what UK brand of pellets should I try and get him on as he is very hooked on seed. Im offering loads of fruit and veg daily and I hope in time this will improve but worried about the interim period and the best diet to have him on.

He loves pomegranate - so we have one fruit he will take

How do we build up hand confidence, is it a case of treats regularly and often. He likes monkey nuts which I don't want to give him due to the dust risk but there doesn't seem to be anything else he responds as well to - any thoughts on what gets to a parrots foody heart!

Although he clearly wants to come out - putting away is tricky when he is hand shy - how do we balance this with his need for exercise - he is also unclipped and a capable flyer!

I know time and patience is the key but I'm keen the time element doesn't get in the way of him having an engaging time in his cage (by not coming out) or that he ends up cage aggressive

That will do for now me thinks - thanks all

 

[dragonlady2]

My Eclectus will eat almost everything fresh. Please check out the " land of Vos " website for all kinds of good information. I don't use a lot of pellets and the one I do use is Totally Organic Pellets.

 

[astar86]

Hi and congrats on your new ekkie.
as far as fruits and veggies just keep trying different ones. If he rejects them then try blending them together and mixing them with the seed. over a few weeks you should be able to make the mush chunkier and chunkier until the veggies are normal bite sized and at that point her may have gotten used to and started to enjoy them. Tops is a really good brand but for ekkies having a fresh diet is much preferred due to their long digestive tract. land of vos is a great site and has loads of valuable information.

in the video it doesn't look like wing flipping to me. it looks more like begging. He could be a little hungry when he does that, or he could want attention..
What is going on in his environment just before he starts the behavior?

 

[weco]

As was mentioned, the wing flutters can mean he wants attention, he wants out of his cage or he wants to be fed or a combination of the above.

Two is still a young bird. Since you really don't know how the bird was interacted with previously, his aversion to hands may be that he was not held & may have been stick/perch trained. Some birds will readily step-up after they have come out of their cage, but don't really like someone's hands reaching around for them in their cage.

If by monkey nuts, you are referring to peanuts, you can shell them & roast them or roast them in the shell at 250(F) - 121(C) for about 20 minutes to kill any mold spores.

Just be patient, he will come around.....his coming out already is a sign of acceptance, that he doesn't move or try to get away from you.....even if he did, it is only because he does not know you. As long as you don't make movements that are quick or that he might perceive as threatening, he will have a good experience.....

 

[mtdoramike]

All Ecletus do this do this. IT IS NOT WING FLIPPING DOP TO A SEED DIET. He most likely see's you and is wanting to interact with you. My Ekkie does this all the time and once I go over to interact with him, he stops it. I find it cute.

 

[Fleabane]

Thanks all

Environments that stimulate the begging are usually when "stuff" is going on and one assumes he's feeling ignored. Have found he loves millet so I now offer a nibble when I notice the begging

He seems to also do it post eating, but usually stops when you approach, again I guess that's fear related as everything is so new

Re wing flipping, not sure if its this as he seems to control the behaviour rather than it be involuntary?

Yes monkey nuts are peanuts in shells I like the idea of mixing fine fruit nd veg with his seeds, will give that ago thank you for the suggestion

All the comments are hugely appreciated, thank you

 

[ProbablyHarrison]

Okay, here are some things that I have read and trust:

Eclectus are territorial birds, so it's essential for you to establish and maintain hand control throughout his life. This can be challenging, but you need to do it to keep him from becoming aggressive inside and around his cage.

1) YOU take control of when he comes out of his cage and goes back in. This means do not open the cage door and wait for him to climb out to get him out. If he is hand shy, use a dowel or stick to get him to step up from inside the cage.

If he doesn't know how to step up on command, that's something you REALLY need to focus on, because it gives you a basis for hand control. Try taking him to a "neutral room" where he can't see his cage and has no territorial bearing on his surroundings. Then practice him stepping onto your finger with the "UP" or "STEP UP" command (confident but calm). Reward success with treats or praise or both. Once he seems to have it down, you can use it inside his cage to get him out. Do the same thing with a "DOWN" or "STEP DOWN" command to get him to step off of you when you need him to.

Even if he is still somewhat hand-shy, you can use the dowel and the step up command to get him out of the cage and then a normal "step up" to get him onto your hands. But you have to establish control and guidelines for him to understand that he's not in charge of his own life. You are, and you love him and want the absolute best for him.

Since he seems timid/wary of people, I would consider getting him clipped for his own safety, if only until he seems bonded to you. An unbonded, fully flighted bird sounds far too risky to me.

As far as food goes, don't give up! You're going to waste a lot of food. That's just part of it. Don't try a little bit of everything too fast and then say nothing worked—you have to try the right things for the right amount of time. I'd say try some baked sweet potato (you can even sprinkle a little seed on there if you must). They're high in vitamin A and mushy enough to get a lot of attention!​

Sorry for the wall of text. Just trying to pass on what I've read!

 

[melbourned]

We have adopted two eckies. A 6 year old and a 14 year old. The 14 year old adapted more slowly than the six year old. I bled a lot from the 14 year old for almost a year. He was very possessive of his cage and didn't want us around it. I persevered and now after 16 months he is the sweetest, hands on bird you could imagine. The six year old never bit much but use to growl when we touched or opened his cage. The growling stopped after about 6 months. I guess what I'm trying to say is be patient and persevere. These guys are now a part of our family or I guess we're part of their flock.

 

[Fleabane]

Many thanks Melbourned, I agree I think time and patience is the best option, for me anyway, birds are so different to our other pets I think belonging in a flock is key and therefore dominance not required

Will take it nice and slowly, he's been singing today(!) and eating out of my hand, very close to his body, with no trouble.

He's lunged a couple for times when changing an internal food bowl, but kept my hand still and in place and he looked slightly confused and gave up

Thanks again

 

[MonicaMc]

ProbablyHarrison, that information is based on dominating our pet birds and flooding. It is based on *our* desires, not the birds, nor their comfort levels. In other words, it's about forcing them to do things that we want them to do until the bird either 'gives in' or becomes aggressive. Not recommended.

Fleabane, I would highly suggest looking into positive reinforcement, often under the guise of clicker training. It's about training birds through learning how to understand them and make every experience between them and us a positive one. A bird learns to step up because it *WANTS* to, not because it *HAS* to. You don't want to put a bird into a situation that will lead to stress and possibly getting bitten, because you want to avoid being bitten in the first place. You want to learn how to work *with* the bird, not against him.

 

[Fleabane]

MonicaMc, I completely agree and was slightly surprised at ProbablyHarrisons reply but as a newbie felt it wasn't my place to raise derision, especially as all feedback is given in good faith

Haribo is flighted, mainly as I utterly believe a relationship with a bird, a flock creature, needs to be trust based not dominance based. He has the choice to stay or go and as our relationship develops he's hanging around longer before flying back home! He has his independence and can take us or leave us.

From my experience with owls, there is nothing more magical than a bird that wants to be your companion, not for food, not as it can't fly away but purely because they choose to be with you

Thanks all for the very helpful suggestions and advice - Haribo is very much settling in, stepping up, lobbing food and being, from what I've read, a generally naughty Ekkie!!!

 

[MonicaMc]

Fleabane, I had actually noticed that. Dominance/flooding is, from what I've seen, still highly recommended because that's how all the old experts have done it for years, and it's always "worked" for them.

People don't like change and they don't like it when something new or different goes against the belief of everything that they have ever learned or been taught. I tend to ruffle up a lot of human feathers, because I don't agree with all the mainstream information out there... i.e. training, hours a bird must sleep, temperature, hormones, mates, etc. Because of this, and perhaps my poor manner in trying to get my point across, some people feel as if I'm a "snotty know it all" or that I know "jack poop". I realize, I don't now it all! However, I'm willing to try! I used to believe and do the same as what's often recommended, but the more I learn, the more I see that what we are doing is either wrong or just plain ignorance.



But all in all, we mean well. We want what's best for the animals, and we don't always agree on it. I hope, that in time, that we can better the care of our birds from learning from each other, and perhaps doing more studies on wild parrots.



You may be interested in ABA (Applied Behavior Analysis) and looking at some trainers/behaviorists that work with positive reinforcement.

Barbara Heidenreich
Karen Pryor
Melinda Johnson
Steve Martin (Natural Encounters)
Susan Friedman
Jim McKendry (PBEC in Australia)
Lara Joseph
Robin Cherkas (CageFreeParrot blog)
Jen (BestInFlock Blog)

etc

 

[ProbablyHarrison]

I respectfully disagree that my suggestions were flooding, but I do acknowledge that if used incorrectly that they could definitely be turned into that easily. I would never support forcing a parrot to step up or pressing fingers into his chest in order to force him into the behavior. I fully believe that the parrot should be guided with trust and gentility to desire the same outcomes that his human companions desire. But I agree with Sally Blanchard (the person who supplied me with my suggestions) that a lot of behavioral problems can stem from a parrot being in charge of his own life without the skills and guidance to do a good job with it, and that it is our responsibility to foster those skills.

I don't believe in any interaction with a parrot being aggressive, but I also think we shouldn't let a parrot do anything it wants simply because we don't want to make it uncomfortable. If the parrot is more comfortable chewing an electric cable than stepping up, we have to redirect that behavior. We have to use positive reinforcement to guide the parrot into proper behaviors.

And I'm still a newbie too! I'm only using what I've read and what I've experienced with other birds as my guideline. And I adore Barbara Heidenreich's methods. I don't think any of my suggestions went outside the parameters of using positive reinforcement. I think interactions must be trust-building. I'm sorry if it sounded like that. I didn't type out a word for word guide to teaching your parrot the step up command but obviously I think it should be learned via positive reinforcement. Anything less is counterproductive!

But again, I'm still learning. And I'm sorry if I was less than clear. But I still believe we are responsible for shaping our parrots' behaviors and not letting them "rule the coop." I know there isn't a hierarchy in parrot instinct and that they're not trying to dominate us, but I do know that parrots can learn manipulative behaviors and that this is always our fault.

But by all means, do what works for you and your bird in the best and most trust-building way. I hope I made it clear enough that I was just passing on what I read and hoped it helped... but I'm more for you doing what works and what is best for your parrot. Sorry if I offended anyone!

 

[MonicaMc]

ProbablyHarrison, that entire message screams dominance to me! LOL


Eclectus are territorial birds, so it's essential for you to establish and maintain hand control throughout his life. This can be challenging, but you need to do it to keep him from becoming aggressive inside and around his cage.
Yes, birds shouldn't be allowed to do whatever they want when they want. They need guidance to do the *right* behaviors. This, with the way it's said, sounds like one is trying to dominate the bird into submission.

1) YOU take control of when he comes out of his cage and goes back in. This means do not open the cage door and wait for him to climb out to get him out. If he is hand shy, use a dowel or stick to get him to step up from inside the cage.
There's no way in H E Double Hockey Sticks that I believe this! This is essentially saying that the bird must come out when *YOU* want it to come out. Again, dominance and possibly flooding, because it's basically implying that the bird must come out one way or another. I know a hyacinth macaw that's not allowed to come out unless someone physically removes her from her cage. Personally, I think it's total BS and I feel sorry for her.

I give my birds the choice to come out and interact with me. I only have two birds who are 100% tame and friendly, and it is these two birds who routinely come out to interact with me. The others aren't nearly as tame/friendly, so rarely come out, but they aren't stuck to a tiny cage, either. They're currently living in a double flight cage so they have plenty of room to move around. I can also get both birds to go back into the cage without any biting or nipping.

If he doesn't know how to step up on command, that's something you REALLY need to focus on, because it gives you a basis for hand control. Try taking him to a "neutral room" where he can't see his cage and has no territorial bearing on his surroundings. Then practice him stepping onto your finger with the "UP" or "STEP UP" command (confident but calm). Reward success with treats or praise or both. Once he seems to have it down, you can use it inside his cage to get him out. Do the same thing with a "DOWN" or "STEP DOWN" command to get him to step off of you when you need him to.
This sounds like a combination of flooding and positive reinforcement. It doesn't say how you must get the bird to step up, but kind of implies that you force the bird to step up - at least, that's how I'm reading it. I think it's a better idea to work with the bird *from* the cage rather than away from it.

If you work with a bird away from the cage, you aren't teaching the bird "proper etiquette" while at the cage, so you may end up with a bird who does fine away from the cage but is hard to handle near the cage. If you start at the cage and branch out, you may end up with a bird who's comfortable near the cage and then around the home.

Even if he is still somewhat hand-shy, you can use the dowel and the step up command to get him out of the cage and then a normal "step up" to get him onto your hands. But you have to establish control and guidelines for him to understand that he's not in charge of his own life. You are, and you love him and want the absolute best for him.
This again implies dominance... using words such as "control" and "guidelines" and the phrase "not in charge of his own life."

Essentially, removing the choice from birds whether or not they want to interact with you. Everything is on *YOUR* terms, not theirs. What if a bird just has a feather out of place and needs some time away from you? Sometimes birds need alone time, too. They aren't little robots to obey our every commands. It's a two way relationship, and you need to learn to respect their boundaries as well. You need to learn how to interact with them right so they in turn can interact with you.




I think we agree on the same principles, just not on the actions to getting to the end goal. Does that make sense?

 

[ProbablyHarrison]

I'm going to concede that you have like 10000000000x more experience than I do and there's no way I can really measure up to that, and I greatly respect your advice. I didn't mean the dominance route as much as you seem to be taking from it, and I certainly don't think a parrot needs to bend to his human companion's every whim or that they're any sort or robot. Most of my recommendation about keeping control of when your parrot comes out of their cage was more of me thinking along the lines of keeping your parrot supervised and not getting into trouble. I don't think a parrot should be forced out of his cage(except in the case of a life-threatening emergency) either. I guess I just said it all wrong. I don't believe in dominating a bird who has no real understanding of dominance.

I do, however, feel like the neutral room idea is a good one as far as giving the bird a place to encourage change, exploration, learning, and introduction of new ideas and people outside of his "territory," etc. But I'm still learning, I admit.

 

[MonicaMc]

It's all fine! We all learn somewhere! And there's a lot of conflicting information out there!

 

[ProbablyHarrison]

There really is! And I'm actually waiting on two of Barbara Heidenreich's books so hopefully those will really supplement my knowledge a lot. I really like Heidenreich and Blanchard so I hope to utilize both of their experiences for guidance.

 

[MonicaMc]

Once you get Heidenreich's books, I'd love to hear your thoughts on them!