Rare budgie- and rare cross breed

[Kiwibird]

I would have thought that too, I still can't work it out and has me puzzled.
But then there are those Breeders tend to do strange things to get a particular bird...I guess anything is possible.

I'll be interested to see this bird. Perosnally, I would put my money on they got an unusual mutation of either a senegal or conure (that somewhat resembles what a hybrid 'might' look like) and are selling it as such. Though, I won't completely discredit the idea either. Stranger things have happened! Especially with the kind of things they are doing with genetics these days. I think ethics (rightly so) is the only thing keeping us from seeing all kinds of strange animal combinations.

 

[chris-md]

The DEFINITION of a species is 'a group of animals capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring' although that has become quite muddied now since gene mapping became possible.

Very eloquently put! And how true. The true definition of a species is so unknown that there are multiple concepts of what make a species, all of which break down in their own way. The above is the biological species concept and is based on reproductive isolation. Problem being that intergeneric hybridization [i.e. Ara x Aratinga] are quite possible, let alone more closely related interspecific (Ara x Ara). Lions and tigers being a prime example of the latter.

This is where genetics is coming in handy, and maybe not so much muddy the water as to clear it up. The phylogenetic species concept (often molecularly derived, for simplicity sake, essentially how genetically different are two species) is probably the most clear cut definition we have, but even that has serious limitations, one of which being that it requires understanding when one species officially split from another vs. simply being two different variations of the same species (great example being dogs, all Canis domesticus, but insane variations about with the same species)

And we're back to, what makes a species a species, and genetics actually yes muddying the water further 😎

 

[Hawk]

AFAIK, any animal with 'red' or 'pink' eyes is simply one which lacks any pigment in the eye, thus the transparent tissues allow the colour of the blood vessels to be seen. Whether you call it red or pink, what you're seeing is the creature's blood: there's no mysterious genetically-determined pigment that causes the colouration. It's LACK of colouration. You can see it in mice. What everyone knows as a PEW (Pink-Eyed White) is the true albino mouse whose eyes are 'blood-coloured'. Various other genetic combinations are around (eg. fawn mice with pink eyes), all involving mosaicism for the recessive albino gene.

Sometimes, colouration can be sex-linked (as in mostly-male ginger cats) or size-linked (morbid obesity in fawn mice) or linked with other features (as in the scanty body hair of appaloosa horses). My personal favourite colour 'oddity' is the palomino 'gene' in horses. It's not easy to breed palominos because it's such a complex genetic make-up but I find it fascinating to read about all the combinations and permutations that are possible.

Regarding a Senegal/Conure cross, you could knock me down with a feather if that proves to be true. AFAIK, they are just too distant from each other on the evolutionary tree to be able to hybridise. Senegal parrots come from the sub-family Psittacinae and evolved in Africa while the Conures are South American and belong to the sub-family Arinae. I'm not a geneticist, but I'd bet quite a few feathers that the two families contain quite different genetic material.

You get hybrids between Lions and Tigers because both belong to the same genus (Panthera). Horses, Zebras and Asses all belong to the genus Equus. Galahs, Corellas and Major Mitchell Cockatoos (genus Cacatua) can all interbreed (albeit not necessarily with fertile offspring), so it beats me why taxonomists have put Galahs into a separate genus (Eolophus) all of a sudden. :22_yikes:

The DEFINITION of a species is 'a group of animals capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring' although that has become quite muddied now since gene mapping became possible. Sigh. Makes me feel so old. When I was a young student zoologist, they taught us that one day someone would actually visualise DNA and we would work out how genes and chromosomes worked. Hey guess what? We've known about the structure of DNA for years now and the genes of most extant species have already been mapped! You can look at the DNA molecule under a microscope and, better than that, you can even modify some genetic details and virtually order up the genetic make-up you want. Whew!

And then that leads to ethical questions about population tweaking and effectively removing natural selection and being able to select the genetics of our own offspring. I honestly never thought I'd see this in my lifetime! What a piece of work is man, eh?

Sorry about the rambling post, but I've got Montezuma's Revenge and can't sleep. I felt writey so...

No your not rambling at all, matter of fact it is the most logical post thus far. I honestly fail to believe it's a Senegal conure cross, and believe me I have been searching the web trying to find a similar parrot to prove it's not a Senegal conure cross. But Having seen this with my own eyes I'm at loss for words, and believe me I have studied birds since 1971. When I had my first Bird of prey, a red tailed Hawk. So it's a bit baffling to me as well as I have seen just about every parrot out there, then see this and wonder " what the heck is that"????

I know many on here have posted that it's impossible, and I agree with everyone of you....But the Avian Vet and owner as well as many of the coworkers whom very knowledgeable on parrots are a bit baffled with this one. Many that have visited the store and own parrots are a bit taken by it as well. So trust me I'm not the only one saying it's not possible.
However the avian vet did a blood test (DNA and all) and confirmed it is a cross. How is what baffles me. And the make up of it is stunning yet weird if that makes since....I still think it's some species of conure. But I've yet to find it.

 

[Anansi]

You're really ramping up the anticipation factor, here! Hahaha! I'm really looking forward to the pics on Thursday!

 

[Hawk]

The DEFINITION of a species is 'a group of animals capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring' although that has become quite muddied now since gene mapping became possible.

Very eloquently put! And how true. The true definition of a species is so unknown that there are multiple concepts of what make a species, all of which break down in their own way. The above is the biological species concept and is based on reproductive isolation. Problem being that intergeneric hybridization [i.e. Ara x Aratinga] are quite possible, let alone more closely related interspecific (Ara x Ara). Lions and tigers being a prime example of the latter.

This is where genetics is coming in handy, and maybe not so much muddy the water as to clear it up. The phylogenetic species concept (often molecularly derived, for simplicity sake, essentially how genetically different are two species) is probably the most clear cut definition we have, but even that has serious limitations, one of which being that it requires understanding when one species officially split from another vs. simply being two different variations of the same species (great example being dogs, all Canis domesticus, but insane variations about with the same species)

And we're back to, what makes a species a species, and genetics actually yes muddying the water further ��

Interesting post....enlighten me on something here as my curiosity is exciting me here...seriously. What if of all conures none are compatible in breeding with a Senegal except maybe one that was over looked. The possibilities do exist. it's only impossible because current data and research is limited on the fact. But there's that 2 % marginal possibility of unchartered data within breeds and characteristic that have not been fully examined or are rather inconclusive. This opens the doors to possibility.
Your thoughts on that?

LOL.. I'm just trying to figure out what the heck this bird is....it has the Grayish/ black head of a Senegal, the gold yellow bands on upper wings like a senegal,
the bright orange v vests of a Senegal, but eyes, long wings, and tail of a conure with coloration of rest of body of a conure. Very strange looking parrot, nice natured though. 2 vets, at least 60 people (parrot owners) and 7 coworkers of avian store haven't a clue other than it's a cross. No one has ever seen one of these.

 

[Hawk]

TWhy do I get attacked by you every darn time I post something? It is a bit annoying.

Ya Know it all!!

Ok, take a deep, long breath, please. Karen is most definitely not attacking anyone here.

You describe a rather peculiar looking budgie, Michael. Are you sure she has white feet??? Please have a look at this:

Albino Budgie - Lutino Budgie
Beginner Guide to Genes, Mutations and Hybrids
Albino Budgies - Cute Little Birdies Aviary

The colors you describe are nowhere to be found online - and boy, I looked hard and long.

Thanks, had a look at the links.....as for the colors, it's white, pink eyes, white feet, though has a hint of pink in them and orange beak. Very very petite and tiny.... I have never seen a budgie this small. LOL....I've seen humming birds bigger. it's 5 months old. You may be right, it could very well could be your typical albino.......but boy never seen one this tiny though....He's no bigger than my index finger in size,,,,,very tiny little thing.

 

[Hawk]

I would have thought that too, I still can't work it out and has me puzzled.
But then there are those Breeders tend to do strange things to get a particular bird...I guess anything is possible.

I'll be interested to see this bird. Perosnally, I would put my money on they got an unusual mutation of either a senegal or conure (that somewhat resembles what a hybrid 'might' look like) and are selling it as such. Though, I won't completely discredit the idea either. Stranger things have happened! Especially with the kind of things they are doing with genetics these days. I think ethics (rightly so) is the only thing keeping us from seeing all kinds of strange animal combinations.

Ahhhh you know, that's the most sensible possibility yet. A mutation that resembles. But here's the kicker, The vet says they did a blood test ( or did they...makes me want to see the test now.) and he says that it is a cross. I still don't believe it. I have to side with you that it's a mutation, but can supply a photo of it on Thursday when I pick up the budgie. I bet you a hundred feathers you would be totally speechless.

 

[Hawk]

You're really ramping up the anticipation factor, here! Hahaha! I'm really looking forward to the pics on Thursday!

I don't mean to.......Just I'm as curious as everyone else here as I think
Kiwi has it right....might be a mutation of some sort that makes it look like a cross and they are selling it as such. I'd be disappointed if that was the case because the vet told me different and trusted his word. No one seems to have known the exact species of conure ( if that's what it is) or seems to know if it's a mutated Senegal....( I have seen senegals that are as big as a quaker before, and senegals like mine that are very small.
My Senegal is the size of a budgie. Very petite, but vet says because it broke it's foot at a young age and was on meds, may have stunted it's growth.

 

[Kalel]

So, I'm going to ask a question that probably is so obvious that it sounds silly asking it, but did you ask the parrot store/rescue where this bird came from? Its origin? If it came from someone who had a senegal and a conure together alone in one cage and owned no other birds, well that kinda answers the question-a peculiar and baffling answer, but an answer If, for example it was hatched in an aviary with many birds of many different species then it would be too muddy of a picture with too many possibilities and likely would not answer the question. Makes sense? I just can't wait to see it on Thursday!

 

[chris-md]

The DEFINITION of a species is 'a group of animals capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring' although that has become quite muddied now since gene mapping became possible.

Very eloquently put! And how true. The true definition of a species is so unknown that there are multiple concepts of what make a species, all of which break down in their own way. The above is the biological species concept and is based on reproductive isolation. Problem being that intergeneric hybridization [i.e. Ara x Aratinga] are quite possible, let alone more closely related interspecific (Ara x Ara). Lions and tigers being a prime example of the latter.

This is where genetics is coming in handy, and maybe not so much muddy the water as to clear it up. The phylogenetic species concept (often molecularly derived, for simplicity sake, essentially how genetically different are two species) is probably the most clear cut definition we have, but even that has serious limitations, one of which being that it requires understanding when one species officially split from another vs. simply being two different variations of the same species (great example being dogs, all Canis domesticus, but insane variations about with the same species)

And we're back to, what makes a species a species, and genetics actually yes muddying the water further ��

Interesting post....enlighten me on something here as my curiosity is exciting me here...seriously. What if of all conures none are compatible in breeding with a Senegal except maybe one that was over looked. The possibilities do exist. it's only impossible because current data and research is limited on the fact. But there's that 2 % marginal possibility of unchartered data within breeds and characteristic that have not been fully examined or are rather inconclusive. This opens the doors to possibility.
Your thoughts on that?

LOL.. I'm just trying to figure out what the heck this bird is....it has the Grayish/ black head of a Senegal, the gold yellow bands on upper wings like a senegal,
the bright orange v vests of a Senegal, but eyes, long wings, and tail of a conure with coloration of rest of body of a conure. Very strange looking parrot, nice natured though. 2 vets, at least 60 people (parrot owners) and 7 coworkers of avian store haven't a clue other than it's a cross. No one has ever seen one of these.

Hi hawk, full disclosure: while my masters was in spring invertebrate ecology, I'm not a practicing scientist, so I can only conjecture here in ornithology.

Let's assume your hypothetical to be true:

Occams razor says the simplest answer tends to be the right one, right? One of these species is not like the other, and the biological species concept does work more often than it doesn't.

As a researcher, I would therefore question the classification of the conure in question. Maybe it isn't actually a conure (remember that natural selection, in certain situations can cause two completely unrelated species develop very similar features, called convergent evolution). This conure, while it might share features with a conure, might actually not be a conure, but a different genus more closely related to senegals than conures. Whoever first classified the species as a conure was mistaken in doing so. This happens FREQUENTLY in taxonomy. It's an ever changing field as we learn more about genetics and it's ability to muddy the waters with new ways of thinking and approaching life (traditional taxonomy relies mostly on looks and anatomy).

My second thought is that, on the genetic tree, this is in fact a conure, it's just that this genus of conure in question arose much earlier than other conures. This would put it oh so slightly more closely related to senegals than newer conure species, which could theoretically increase the odds of reproductive success.

Truth is we just don't always know why one species makes hybrids and others don't. I can give you MANY examples that further defy and support this singular definition. You think animals are confusing? Plants are even worse, and their hybrids are almost always fertile and capable of breeding.

This is the limitation of defining a species as a group of organisms capable of interbreeding. The larger problem, as stated before, really is that we still don't have a clear definition of what a species is.

Things are different for different reasons.

Clear as mud?

 

[chris-md]

Of course, the real first question is, is it truly the stated hybrid? Knowing what I know about hybridization, this is always the true starting point, as people almost always get it wrong the first guess. The answer I just gave assumes the hybrid is as stated.

 

[Betrisher]

I'm with Kiwibird. It's much more likely to get a spontaneous mutation than it is to get a hybrid between two such distinct species. That's where I'm puttin' my feathers.

Not to be rude or argumentative or anything, but a vet that claims 'a blood test' proves hybridisation is either telling fibbers or is not a very clever vet. 'A blood test' won't prove a single thing except that the animal has blood and antibodies. What's needed is a total DNA screen to show exactly what genes are at play and that takes ages to perform.

When a pair of animals reproduces, the DNA from one has to match perfectly with that of the other like the cogs in gears. Assuming the cog pattern of the Senegal does not match with that of the Conure, it's simply not possible for the two to mesh together and produce anything viable. Cross-species reproduction might be possible when the cogs are near-as-dammit, but otherwise not. I'm still puttin' all my feathers on a mutation of some sort.

 

[chris-md]

I'm with Kiwibird. It's much more likely to get a spontaneous mutation than it is to get a hybrid between two such distinct species. That's where I'm puttin' my feathers.

How about "Pinning" your feathers?

Funny thing about reproductive genetics, they aren't as rigid across kingdoms. Orchids of vastly different ploidy counts can successfully hybridize intergenerically. As long as the ploidy averages out to an even number, the offspring will be fertile. e.g. 4N x 12N, fertile 8N offspring. 2N x 4N, if successful (and it is, more often then not) gives infertile 3N offspring. Flowers are a vast improvement though!)

Animals, on the other hand, as you essentially note, are much more rigid. I'm with everyone here, not likely a conure Senegal hybrid.

 

[Betrisher]

YES! I know about that with orchids (well, rudimentarily, at least). Last year, I bought an Oncidium/Sarcochilus hybrid! I can't wait till I get flowers on this baby - what will they look like???

 

[Hawk]

So, I'm going to ask a question that probably is so obvious that it sounds silly asking it, but did you ask the parrot store/rescue where this bird came from? Its origin? If it came from someone who had a senegal and a conure together alone in one cage and owned no other birds, well that kinda answers the question-a peculiar and baffling answer, but an answer If, for example it was hatched in an aviary with many birds of many different species then it would be too muddy of a picture with too many possibilities and likely would not answer the question. Makes sense? I just can't wait to see it on Thursday!

Not a silly question at all, glad you asked. Yes I'm as curious as everyone else and nosey too :32:. Seems this bird belonged to some guy that fell ill and died, the guy willed the bird to his uncle, whom really didn't want a parrot, but took it in anyway. For a short while, then decided he didn't want it and brought it into mark The Vet and Owner of store. The bird was given a complete check ( policy here of any bird that is brought in to be rehomed and sold). But the original origin is not clear, no records available, but according to the guys uncle, he got it from a Detroit area breeder that was eventually shut down for reasons I do not know....but involved the state. I don't know any more than that.

The bird is drawing a lot of attention by many that stop in and get toys, check ups, food or to buy a parrot. Everyone is saying same thing...can't be....but yet no one can honestly say just what it is. No one has seen one like it. At least 60 people have taken a look so far.
My opinion....it has to be a mutated bird A Frankenstein made bird??? LOL...Ok I'm being silly there, but I haven't a clue at all. And 60 others that seen it do not either, including vet. Locals is rolling trying to figure it out as well.

We have a serious bird /parrot loving community around here. Lot's of people have Parrots around the area and city

 

[Hawk]

Of course, the real first question is, is it truly the stated hybrid? Knowing what I know about hybridization, this is always the true starting point, as people almost always get it wrong the first guess. The answer I just gave assumes the hybrid is as stated.

Hi Chris,
That I don't quite know, I'm not into Hybrids as basically I just stay within
the basic parrots, the Grey, BFA, Senegal, major Mitchel ( passed away 2011 at age 68), a red factor, and Albino Budgie. All which we own.

However my sister has 3 Conures and had her stop by and have a look at
this bird at the store, also had a good friend of mine stop by there tonite as well. I told them both that the store had what is called a senni/ conure cross.....there reaction ( like mine at first) was no way...not possible.

Well later ( a little while ago) I asked...well what did you think. My sister was like, uhhh, from the front and side you'd swear you were looking at a g senni with a long tail and different feet ( I didn't notice the feet), but then it looks like a conure, sorta, as well...strange looking bird she said..she didn't know what it was....her reply was as everyone else, looks like a cross....but it can't be she says, a strange mutation maybe??.

Then my friend calls me and says, wow, That's an odd bird, looks senni, yet looks conure, can't tell which it's supposed to be. he Said " My guess is someone tried an experiment in genetics somehow....Heck I don't know on this one"

It's quite a mystery !

 

[Hawk]

Very eloquently put! And how true. The true definition of a species is so unknown that there are multiple concepts of what make a species, all of which break down in their own way. The above is the biological species concept and is based on reproductive isolation. Problem being that intergeneric hybridization [i.e. Ara x Aratinga] are quite possible, let alone more closely related interspecific (Ara x Ara). Lions and tigers being a prime example of the latter.

This is where genetics is coming in handy, and maybe not so much muddy the water as to clear it up. The phylogenetic species concept (often molecularly derived, for simplicity sake, essentially how genetically different are two species) is probably the most clear cut definition we have, but even that has serious limitations, one of which being that it requires understanding when one species officially split from another vs. simply being two different variations of the same species (great example being dogs, all Canis domesticus, but insane variations about with the same species)

And we're back to, what makes a species a species, and genetics actually yes muddying the water further ��

Interesting post....enlighten me on something here as my curiosity is exciting me here...seriously. What if of all conures none are compatible in breeding with a Senegal except maybe one that was over looked. The possibilities do exist. it's only impossible because current data and research is limited on the fact. But there's that 2 % marginal possibility of unchartered data within breeds and characteristic that have not been fully examined or are rather inconclusive. This opens the doors to possibility.
Your thoughts on that?

LOL.. I'm just trying to figure out what the heck this bird is....it has the Grayish/ black head of a Senegal, the gold yellow bands on upper wings like a senegal,
the bright orange v vests of a Senegal, but eyes, long wings, and tail of a conure with coloration of rest of body of a conure. Very strange looking parrot, nice natured though. 2 vets, at least 60 people (parrot owners) and 7 coworkers of avian store haven't a clue other than it's a cross. No one has ever seen one of these.

Hi hawk, full disclosure: while my masters was in spring invertebrate ecology, I'm not a practicing scientist, so I can only conjecture here in ornithology.

Let's assume your hypothetical to be true:

Occams razor says the simplest answer tends to be the right one, right? One of these species is not like the other, and the biological species concept does work more often than it doesn't.

As a researcher, I would therefore question the classification of the conure in question. Maybe it isn't actually a conure (remember that natural selection, in certain situations can cause two completely unrelated species develop very similar features, called convergent evolution). This conure, while it might share features with a conure, might actually not be a conure, but a different genus more closely related to senegals than conures. Whoever first classified the species as a conure was mistaken in doing so. This happens FREQUENTLY in taxonomy. It's an ever changing field as we learn more about genetics and it's ability to muddy the waters with new ways of thinking and approaching life (traditional taxonomy relies mostly on looks and anatomy).

My second thought is that, on the genetic tree, this is in fact a conure, it's just that this genus of conure in question arose much earlier than other conures. This would put it oh so slightly more closely related to senegals than newer conure species, which could theoretically increase the odds of reproductive success.

Truth is we just don't always know why one species makes hybrids and others don't. I can give you MANY examples that further defy and support this singular definition. You think animals are confusing? Plants are even worse, and their hybrids are almost always fertile and capable of breeding.

This is the limitation of defining a species as a group of organisms capable of interbreeding. The larger problem, as stated before, really is that we still don't have a clear definition of what a species is.

Things are different for different reasons.

Clear as mud?

Hi Chris,
Your very knowledgeable in genetics, I admire that and find your posts very interesting. Good field of study. Myself I build aircrafts (stealth) and helped build two of the space shuttles as well as work on Nuclear engineering. I work from home now. Had enough government stress.

Let me throw a question your way. Because I find this all very interesting.
What if there was a hybrid on the side of a specific conure that was breed consistently for a few years to then acquire a specific characteristic in it's genetics to suddenly become possible mating/breeding with a Senegal to which it is then possible to obtain a desired outcome?

For example to mate with this one, then mate with that one with the offspring, then that offspring is mate with such and such to which it is now compatible then to a Senegal with that offspring?

Wouldn't changing the lineage a few times change the dna structural genetic makeup and then in turn which was never possible before becomes possible?

Sorry....just love learning new things. It's Fascinating!!

Sorry gang for dragging thread out, but it's just interesting. I'm one that likes to know How something happens, why something happens, what is the origin of what makes it happen and etc.

 

[Doublete]

I used to have brain power and understand this stuff. Then I quit using my brain for good and ended up like this.

This discussion makes me think of zebras and horses... Also donkeys and horses. All create sterile offspring.


So is it possible that this is a cross and they did mate and it is so rare because most aren't viable?

 

[Hawk]

I'm with Kiwibird. It's much more likely to get a spontaneous mutation than it is to get a hybrid between two such distinct species. That's where I'm puttin' my feathers.

Not to be rude or argumentative or anything, but a vet that claims 'a blood test' proves hybridisation is either telling fibbers or is not a very clever vet. 'A blood test' won't prove a single thing except that the animal has blood and antibodies. What's needed is a total DNA screen to show exactly what genes are at play and that takes ages to perform.

When a pair of animals reproduces, the DNA from one has to match perfectly with that of the other like the cogs in gears. Assuming the cog pattern of the Senegal does not match with that of the Conure, it's simply not possible for the two to mesh together and produce anything viable. Cross-species reproduction might be possible when the cogs are near-as-dammit, but otherwise not. I'm still puttin' all my feathers on a mutation of some sort.

Hi Trish,
Yeah I'm kind of leaning that way myself that it's a mutation. The only real possibility is that the conure ( if it actually was a conure ) was breed in a way several times over then maybe the offspring breed in a way after that that change the lineage of the DNA. I really don't know. I can build you an aircraft, or Space shuttle and nuclear but when it comes to Genetics, I haven't a clue.

The Vet is actually quite good, don't think he'd lie about that. But He said they did testing ( what, I'm not sure, I assumed blood tests or whatever it is they test for). He could have messed up but normally he's right dead on. He rarely gets complaints if any. So I don't know there Trish.

It's an usual bird...that's for sure, and one 60 plus people now have seen the bird and no one can yet Identify it. That's the baffling part

 

[Betrisher]

Oooooo! I am SO busting to write an essay on how DNA is structured and base-pairs and recombinant RNA! Sadly, it would take far more than the forum allows one person to write and would bore the contour feathers off most of our flock.

DNA (and genes) are made up of pairs of chemicals (called 'bases') that are designed to chemically attract each other and lock together when they meet. This is what keeps the DNA molecule so stable and why species remain so true to form. Changes in the pairs structure (mutations) are most often not viable and so no offspring results. VERY occasionally, a change in the base-pair structure (usually the order in which they occur) can happen in a way that doesn't change the overall shape of the molecule but which will result in some 'strange' features being observed in the offspring. This is how albinism, melanism and any number of other odd expressions of the normal situation arise.

When the reproductive cells of male and female meet (sperm and egg), an unusual process called meiosis occurs. This involves the unwinding of the DNA molecule from each cell (sperm and egg) and its reconstitution by meeting with its opposite half. That is, half the info from the male cell recombines with half the info from the female cell making a completely new entity. (Please note: this is a highly simplified account and anyone out there who knows the actual chemistry of what happens, please bear with me, OK?) Anyway, that's how we get offspring. Half the stuff from Mum and half the stuff from Dad.

For this to happen, you have to have a perfect mesh between the two halves of the DNA molecule. That means the base-pairs on one have to line up and lock together with those on the other. If there's a gap or too many pairs on one half, there can't be a proper match and nothing can happen. (Again, highly simplified but basically what happens). The best analogy (aside from the cogs-on-a-gear one) I can think of is two long combs that can fit together and interleave their teeth. If you take two identical combs, this is easy to achieve. If you take two different brand combs, you won't get a perfect meshing together because the teeth are different sizes or different in number or spacing. Can you picture that?

So, that's what happens when you get two different species attempting to mate.

Even if a pair of birds from different species would mate (and that's not a given for many reasons), their DNA can't mesh together because it's too different. No amount of breeding and breeding and mutation can change that. Each time reproduction occurs, a perfectly faithful copy of the parents' DNA is made so that the essential structure (ie. that which determines a species) is maintained. For this reason, you can't 'breed out' the essential pattern of a species' DNA. The fact that the two families we're discussing here originated on different continents leads me to think it's even more remote to think a hybrid could be produced between them.

One last point. When animals breed, certain triggers are required to stimulate attraction and courting behaviour. These can include colouration, feather patterns (eg. long tails, breeding plumage), bill shape, song (especially a specific mating song, such as bower birds employ) and stage-making (again, like bower birds). This is another reason I highly doubt two such different species would even want to breed together: the correct triggers for sexual attraction are simply not there.

I dunno if this helps or not, but it's the reason I'm still puttin' all my feathers on the mutation idea.