URGENT help needed

[Tiel]

You can ask for a copy of the tests, and post here, ill help you look through them, or you can Google and check against normals.

If he has elevated liver values, that's only going to tell you something is up with liver. It can't tell you what caused it, viral, bacteria, chronic metal toxicity, tumor, genetic defects, or other toxins liver is filtering out.

Not all things turn up in culture, tho its an excellent tool. Or they have to be repeated because of intermittent shedding of organisms..

Blood work, is a tool.

Everything helps point to tge cause. And some vets are better at figuring out, or this us a tricky case. Really its hard to know.

Wow thank you so much, you're a Saint! Definitely going to be the first thing to do when I'm calling my vet tommorow. I hope I get a copy. It's an older blood sample but I've been dealing with this for quite a time so maybe they'll still be useful. Worst case scenario: I go to another vet and demand antibiotics (I'm that desperate)

 

[Laurasea]

O think trying a general antibiotics, is reasonable. But you generally don't just get a bacterial liver infection, most often starts someplace else and seeds the liver, as the liver us the bodies filter. I mean yeah, I'd probably want to try antibiotics. But remember the liver has to filter out most antibiotics too, some are filtered through kidney. So you need a good vet, who has a good idea what they are targeting

 

[Tiel]

So, this can get tricky. Some viral infections (many, actually) will not be able to be defined by a CBC (standard blood). While there can be red flags in a CBC, there won't always be, and even then it is almost impossible to know what virus without more specifics. Plus, a tumor or something won't show on a CBC in most cases (if long-term or benign). Additionally, something like metal poisoning would also be unlikely to show in a CBC, other than through elevated liver enzymes (possibly-- hard to say for sure, and definitely not always)


Chronic fungal infections can show normal white counts, even if a bird is sick (as the system sort of stops fighting so hard after a period of time)..not sure how that translates to other things.


Also, birds can be asymptomatic carriers of certain illnesses, so a bird can be healthy and then suddenly sick if for whatever reason they become actively symptomatic.

Totally agree with you there, but I feel like if you have a bird that's symptomatic for an infection, you'll at least try to treat it with a general antibiotic. This vet is very pricey and a phone consultation of a couple minutes will cost you 34 dollars. I might be biased but I've talked to a retired vet (online) and he seemed to disagree with my avian vet too. In his case prescribing a general antibiotic would've made the most sense.

If a bird is suspected of liver damage and may have a viral infection, many meds can make the liver worse and an antibiotic won't treat a virus. My vet won't give antibiotics without proof of a specific bacteria etc.


Did you make sure your milk thistle is for birds and isn't suspended in alcohol, by the way? Just wanted to double check.

I understand. I think you might be rational here and I'm acting on impulsiveness out of fear for my bird. Also: indeed, it is, it was actually prescribed to me by my vet (they do their own liver treatment with milk thistle, artichoke etc.) I'm really looking forward to the fecal sample results, at this point I'd be glad about a simple and clear diagnosis so I can finally start approaching my birds illness...

 

[Laurasea]

pokyuria is kidney, its more likely has a kidney infection, that's more common, and chronic, liver could be inflamed from filtering toxins from infection, or picking up kidney slack

 

[noodles123]

Totally agree with you there, but I feel like if you have a bird that's symptomatic for an infection, you'll at least try to treat it with a general antibiotic. This vet is very pricey and a phone consultation of a couple minutes will cost you 34 dollars. I might be biased but I've talked to a retired vet (online) and he seemed to disagree with my avian vet too. In his case prescribing a general antibiotic would've made the most sense.

If a bird is suspected of liver damage and may have a viral infection, many meds can make the liver worse and an antibiotic won't treat a virus. My vet won't give antibiotics without proof of a specific bacteria etc.


Did you make sure your milk thistle is for birds and isn't suspended in alcohol, by the way? Just wanted to double check.

I understand. I think you might be rational here and I'm acting on impulsiveness out of fear for my bird. Also: indeed, it is, it was actually prescribed to me by my vet (they do their own liver treatment with milk thistle, artichoke etc.) I'm really looking forward to the fecal sample results, at this point I'd be glad about a simple and clear diagnosis so I can finally start approaching my birds illness...

If they think the liver is seriously struggling, you might ask them about lactUlose (not lactose..) When my bird had a liver issue years ago (since healed) they gave her a custom mix of lactulose and milk thistle, in the event that her ammonia levels got to high. Lactulose can reportedly help prevent seizures if a bird's liver is bad (with high internal ammonia levels) and from what I can tell, it did mine no harm. Your vet probably already knows this, but I only mention it because I have sort of been where you are and that was helpful for mine (I think?)

 

[Laurasea]

This was shared by Scott before, excellent kidney info
http://avianmedicine.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/16_kidneys.pdf

 

[Tiel]

If a bird is suspected of liver damage and may have a viral infection, many meds can make the liver worse and an antibiotic won't treat a virus. My vet won't give antibiotics without proof of a specific bacteria etc.


Did you make sure your milk thistle is for birds and isn't suspended in alcohol, by the way? Just wanted to double check.

I understand. I think you might be rational here and I'm acting on impulsiveness out of fear for my bird. Also: indeed, it is, it was actually prescribed to me by my vet (they do their own liver treatment with milk thistle, artichoke etc.) I'm really looking forward to the fecal sample results, at this point I'd be glad about a simple and clear diagnosis so I can finally start approaching my birds illness...

If they think the liver is seriously struggling, you might ask them about lactUlose (not lactose..) When my bird had a liver issue years ago (since healed) they gave her a custom mix of lactulose and milk thistle, in the event that her ammonia levels got to high. Lactulose can reportedly help prevent seizures if a bird's liver is bad (with high internal ammonia levels) and from what I can tell, it did mine no harm. Your vet probably already knows this, but I only mention it because I have sort of been where you are and that was helpful for mine (I think?)

Interesting for you to mention seizures but my bird has had moments where I felt like he was seizing? He was not moving even when I was waving my hand in front of his head, no twitching whatsoever.

 

[noodles123]

I understand. I think you might be rational here and I'm acting on impulsiveness out of fear for my bird. Also: indeed, it is, it was actually prescribed to me by my vet (they do their own liver treatment with milk thistle, artichoke etc.) I'm really looking forward to the fecal sample results, at this point I'd be glad about a simple and clear diagnosis so I can finally start approaching my birds illness...

If they think the liver is seriously struggling, you might ask them about lactUlose (not lactose..) When my bird had a liver issue years ago (since healed) they gave her a custom mix of lactulose and milk thistle, in the event that her ammonia levels got to high. Lactulose can reportedly help prevent seizures if a bird's liver is bad (with high internal ammonia levels) and from what I can tell, it did mine no harm. Your vet probably already knows this, but I only mention it because I have sort of been where you are and that was helpful for mine (I think?)

Interesting for you to mention seizures but my bird has had moments where I felt like he was seizing? He was not moving even when I was waving my hand in front of his head, no twitching whatsoever.

In humans, that would be what is called an absence seizure, but not sure if the same is true in birds. I do know that seizures in general can accompany liver issues, but birds are also very weird lol--- sometimes a sexual parrot will appear to seize (although that is not your bird's case, due to age and what you are describing---I just meant that vibrating can look like a seizure and not be)--staring into space could be though- so that is something to discuss with your vet, for sure.

 

[noodles123]

Here's an example of what I've seen in humans (not my video) but I used to have a class of students who would collectively have seizures over 100 times a day, and a lot of them looked like this--This girl is having them back to back-- a seizing person can sometimes even appear to engage in odd behavior (like bobbing or unbuttoning and re buttoning a button, playing with paper etc) while still responding to some degree but seeming spaced-out.


AGAIN, NOT SURE IF BIRDS DO THIS...but it's worth investigating (I can see why the mom posted this, although it does come off as invasive, people just don't tend to recognize these types of seizures when they happen):


I feel like people in general need to know that these happen, so I am sorry for sort of emphasizing this, but it's a huge thing that gets overlooked a lot and I imagine the same could be true in parrots.


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poDS_peJ1H8"]ABSENCE SEIZURE - YouTube[/ame]


another GREAT example (in humans)
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3ulV9eJKQQ"]Absence Seizure Caught on Camera - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Laurasea]

Can you share a picture of the poop, abd tge burd?

 

[Tiel]

Here's an example of what I've seen in humans (not my video) but I used to have a class of students who would collectively have seizures over 100 times a day, and a lot of them looked like this--This girl is having them back to back-- a seizing person can sometimes even appear to engage in odd behavior (like bobbing or unbuttoning and re buttoning a button, playing with paper etc) while still responding to some degree but seeming spaced-out.


AGAIN, NOT SURE IF BIRDS DO THIS...but it's worth investigating (I can see why the mom posted this, although it does come off as invasive, people just don't tend to recognize these types of seizures when they happen):


I feel like people in general need to know that these happen, so I am sorry for sort of emphasizing this, but it's a huge thing that gets overlooked a lot and I imagine the same could be true in parrots.


ABSENCE SEIZURE - YouTube


another GREAT example (in humans)
Absence Seizure Caught on Camera - YouTube

No need to apologize! This is helpful because that's exactly how it is. Haku doesn't allow me to touch his neck, so he'll respond to that while he "freezes". But other than that, he will just look at emptiness

 

[Tiel]

Can you share a picture of the poop, abd tge burd?

Yes I will attach a picture of one of his more recent abnormal droppings, in this case it even had bubbles!

I'm definitely planning to address all of your points in my next vet call, this is important since avain medicine seems to be underratedly complicated. I genuinely didn't expect to receive so much insight! Anyways here is the picture of his most recent, very abnormal, mucousy and bubbly poop.

 

[Laurasea]

Is the urates , the normally creamy white part white? Or yellow tinged?,
Yes I'd lean towards bacterial infection, but I'm not an expert.. my Girl has this, and indications are its bacterial, and she seems to already be responding to antibiotics. Her urates were normal white tho.
What is your burds weight?, how does this compare to your other burd. How does keel feel?
I'm your album which is sick bird and still would like pictures, one of face straight on. One if body sideways and straight on

 

[Tiel]

Another recent poop, sorry for bad picture quality I took this in a hurry while I was changing their water for the night

 

[Tiel]

Is the urates , the normally creamy white part white? Or yellow tinged?,
Yes I'd kean towards bacterial infection, but I'm not an expert.. my Girl has this, and indications are its bacterial, and she seems to already be responding to antibiotics. Her urates were normal white tho.

It's cream-colored but the urates are web-like since the poop itself is so mucousy. Today was the first time he started pooping bubbles so I'm very concerned. I've read on several sites that bubbles are almost always an indication for bacterial growth.

 

[Tiel]

I'm crazy, lol, I used an app to enhance the picture to see wether there are any bubbles. I don't see any but yeah here's the picture with a better quality

 

[Laurasea]

Bubbles are trickier to call, ive seen non lasting small Bubbles in normal poop. I've heard and read probably some of the same poop pages as you . And they do say that. Penny did have some Bubbles before antibiotics but they were much larger than anything in these pictures. Not disagreeing with you at all!!! They green urine very much leans me towards bacterial, but I don't know all the causes for green urine....
I think asking for antibiotic is reasonable, but the vet has the whole picture and knowledge tests, that exceeds mine, and us tge most important voice in this. We all just try and help support. A lot if members haven't had sick burds or they would weigh in ...ok past my bedtime. Good luck!! Keep us posted!

 

[Tiel]

Hey Guys!
The dropping test came out clean, but the vet did mention that they don't always cover the full scope of possibilities. I brought up my worry about his mucousy and bubbly poop. There's also a possibility that the damage came from the kidney and exhausted the liver apparently? But anyway: I was prescribed a general antibiotic. I forgot to ask for the name but it's being delivered to me. I'm going to update you guys the second I get the medicine. I kind of have this worry that I might further damage his liver in case there's no bacterial growth, but I think I have no other choice at this point I haven't weighed him yet but I'm going to in a second, instead I have a recent poop picture that doesn't look too bad other than maybe dehydrated?

 

[Laurasea]

Looks better. Slight yellow tint can be slight dehydration or from being sick

 

[Tiel]

Looks better. Slight yellow tint can be slight dehydration or from being sick

He really likes the taste of Chamomile so I made him drink a bit of tea and I can already tell that he feels much better. This might be helpful to other parents who deal with anxious birds since Chamomile is supposed to have a relaxing effect, you can even put it in a spray bottle to mist the feathers apparently (I've never tried that before)