URGENT help needed

[Scott]

You can ask for a copy of the tests, and post here, ill help you look through them, or you can Google and check against normals.

If he has elevated liver values, that's only going to tell you something is up with liver. It can't tell you what caused it, viral, bacteria, chronic metal toxicity, tumor, genetic defects, or other toxins liver is filtering out.

Not all things turn up in culture, tho its an excellent tool. Or they have to be repeated because of intermittent shedding of organisms..

Blood work, is a tool.

Everything helps point to tge cause. And some vets are better at figuring out, or this us a tricky case. Really its hard to know.

Wow thank you so much, you're a Saint! Definitely going to be the first thing to do when I'm calling my vet tommorow. I hope I get a copy. It's an older blood sample but I've been dealing with this for quite a time so maybe they'll still be useful. Worst case scenario: I go to another vet and demand antibiotics (I'm that desperate)

No harm in seeking a second opinion. Even the most competent and experienced medical professionals may have dueling diagnoses!

 

[Tiel]

What we're doing in the meantime:

Hey guys so while we're waiting for antibiotics I've been constantly checking their poops, their because I don't know if this is contagious or not...
Surprisingly after using the milk thistle supplement (that also includes artichoke and lactulose!) Hakus poop and appetite did overall improve, but he's still certainly less active so I feel like the milk thistle only helped him with faking his well-being? Anyway, currently I'm waiting for my antibiotics to arrive. I will obviously do my own research and immediately post the antibiotics in this group so I can maybe see wether any of you have experience with this type of medicine?
While reading though many other chats and including Laurasea's advice on Jendays chat I started to introduce liquid food in order to keep his calories, since he's probably using up a lot of energy right now. Unfortunately there's no way the parrot formula would arrive at the right time which's why I resulted in mixing oats, flaxseed, Chamomile tea in a mixer. He likes the taste and weirdly enough enhanced his appetite? I don't know, maybe I'm imagining things.

 

[Tiel]

The antibiotic arrived!!
It's called Paracillin® SP and it's a 4 gr solution in a 10 ml bottle. I'm required to use a drop 2 times a day for 7 days. I've been doing a lot of effort to keep Hakus weight in check, such as giving him liquid food (pellets, oats, flax seed and banana liquified in a mixer with Chamomile tea). I've managed him to get up to a minimum of 99-100 grams every night before I put him in his cage to sleep. Haku is still lethargic and had a loss of appetite but weirdly enough his poop looks very non suspicious. Does anybody else have experience with this antibiotic? The active ingredient is Amoxicillin.

 

[Laurasea]

It is one that is used. I have nit used it
But it is listed in vet preceeding manual
https://www.dvm360.com/view/avian-treatments-work-proceedings
Avian treatments that work (Proceedings)
April 1, 2010
Thomas N. Tully, Jr., DVM, MS, DABVP (Avian), DECZM (Avian)


There are many therapeutic options open to veterinarians when treating patients. Unfortunately, as case numbers increase treatment options are narrowed due to different reasons



Avian treatments that work (Proceedings)
April 1, 2010
Thomas N. Tully, Jr., DVM, MS, DABVP (Avian), DECZM (Avian)


There are many therapeutic options open to veterinarians when treating patients. Unfortunately, as case numbers increase treatment options are narrowed due to different reasons.


There are many therapeutic options open to veterinarians when treating patients. Unfortunately, as case numbers increase treatment options are narrowed due to different reasons. There has been a concern by the medical profession of antibiotic resistance due to the overuse and abuse of effective antibiotic agents. There are factors that determine the use of antibiotic agents, in particular for avian/exotic patients. Some of the decision making factors include effectiveness of the agent against the specific bacterial organism being treated ease of administration, stress of the patient related to administration, ability of the agent to reach therapeutic levels at the intended site of treatment, cost and availability of the drug. The best avian/exotic practices seem to use all available options, more or less, to treat with success many of their patients. This also includes using compounding pharmacies to manufacture drug formulations that are no longer mass manufactured and to compound agents into forms and tastes that are easier to administer to the avian/exotic patients. Other than compounding pharmacies, regular pharmacies may compound certain drugs they have in their inventory for a specific case or provide that drug in the manufactured form so inventory does not need to be maintained at the veterinary hospital for a drug that is rarely used. It is important to remember that just because a drug is rarely used does not mean that it is not a treatment option. The third generation cephalosporins are an excellent treatment choice for reptile patients but often patients will be treated with some other less desirable drug because the veterinary hospital does not have an inventory of these expensive drugs. Please use regular pharmacies, compounding pharmacies and hospital pharmacies when the occasion and need arises. Do not be afraid to interact with professional pharmacists. Pharmacists cannot only provide drugs but also give advice on effective alternatives, new drug therapies, side effects associated with administration and possible help formulating dosages.

A recommended test is the Exotic Animal Formulary 3rd edition edited by Dr. J.W. Carpenter, published by Elsevier/Saunders. This is a very complete avian/exotic formulary listing dosages and references. When selecting an antibiotic the veterinarian should know if it is bacteriacidal or bacteriastatic, how it is administered, if oral administration is the route of choice, how well is it absorbed through the gastrointestinal tract and disseminated through the body, species variation relating to dose and major side effects of the drug. Of course there are other considerations but if one does not apply this thought process into the selection of antibiotics and other therapeutic agents the success of treating avian/exotic patients will be greatly reduced. Below I have listed antibiotics that are commonly used in avian/exotic practice. This is not a complete selection, but one that gives an overview to the types of agents one must use to successfully treat microbial infections in avian/exotic patients. These antibiotics are not only effective in treating infections affecting avian/exotic species but other species as well.

Commonly used antibiotics in avian/exotic practice:1

1. Bacteriocidal – extended- spectrum penicillins; amoxicillin, ampicillin, carbenicillin, ticarcillin, piperacillin

2. Bacteriocidal – β-Lactamase inhibitors/clavulanic acid; amoxicillin-clavulanate, ticarcillin-clavulanate

3. Bacteriocidal – first generation cephalosporins; Cefadroxil, Cefazolin, Cephalexin, Cephalothin, Cephradine

4. Bacteriocidal – third generation cephalosporins; Cefotaxime, Ceftazidime, Ceftiofur

5. Bacteriocidal – aminoglycosides; amikacin

6. Bacteriocidal – trimethoprim-sulfa

7. Bacteriocidal – fluoroquinolones; ciprofloxacin, enronfloxacin

8. Bacteriostatic – macrolides; erythromycin, tylosin

9. Bacteriostatic – tetracyclines; chlortetracycline, doxycycline, oxytetracycline, tetracycline

10. Other (Cidal against anaerobes) – nitroimidazole; metronidazole

As mentioned previously, the above list is just a fraction of the antibiotic agents available, but are the most common used in avian/exotic pet medicine. It is useful and often recommended to use bacteriocidal agents when possible, but certain diseases respond better to agents that may be bacteriostatic (e.g. Chlamydiophila psittaci, drug of choice is doxycyline). Disease specific antibiotics also highlight the need for a proper diagnostic workup to definitively diagnose the illness in order to prescribe the correct treatment. Again, avian/exotic patients respond well to the proper treatment but die quickly if the proper treatment is not administered.

There are certain antimicrobial agents that are more effective when used to treat specific areas of infection in the body. The historical use of certain antimicrobials and their effectiveness in treating infections is an important consideration but should not overshadow the importance of culture and sensitivity, especially when treating avian/exotic patients.

Antimicrobial agents commonly used to treat bacteremia/septicemia cases include synergistic aminoglycoside and penicillin or cephalosporin therapy, enrofloxacin with amoxicillin, penicillins and for anaerobic infections chloramphenicol, clindamycin and metronidazole.1

Penicillins, cephalosporins, doxycycline, trimethoprim-sulfa, fluoroquinolones are often used to treat anaerobic soft tissue infections while clindamycin or metronidazole are used to treat anaerobic soft tissue infections.1

Respiratory tract infections are one of the most common disease presentations involving avian/exotic species. The drugs of choice for respiratory infections are penicillins, cephalosporins, tetracyclines, trimethoprim-sulfa, chloramphenicol, fluoroquinolones, doxycycline, macrolides and for anaerobic infections clindamycin or metronidazole.1 Antibiotics can be administered through nebulization techniques and nasal flushes

 

[Tiel]

It is one that is used. I have nit used it
But it is listed in vet preceeding manual
https://www.dvm360.com/view/avian-treatments-work-proceedings
Avian treatments that work (Proceedings)
April 1, 2010
Thomas N. Tully, Jr., DVM, MS, DABVP (Avian), DECZM (Avian)


There are many therapeutic options open to veterinarians when treating patients. Unfortunately, as case numbers increase treatment options are narrowed due to different reasons



Avian treatments that work (Proceedings)
April 1, 2010
Thomas N. Tully, Jr., DVM, MS, DABVP (Avian), DECZM (Avian)


There are many therapeutic options open to veterinarians when treating patients. Unfortunately, as case numbers increase treatment options are narrowed due to different reasons.


There are many therapeutic options open to veterinarians when treating patients. Unfortunately, as case numbers increase treatment options are narrowed due to different reasons. There has been a concern by the medical profession of antibiotic resistance due to the overuse and abuse of effective antibiotic agents. There are factors that determine the use of antibiotic agents, in particular for avian/exotic patients. Some of the decision making factors include effectiveness of the agent against the specific bacterial organism being treated ease of administration, stress of the patient related to administration, ability of the agent to reach therapeutic levels at the intended site of treatment, cost and availability of the drug. The best avian/exotic practices seem to use all available options, more or less, to treat with success many of their patients. This also includes using compounding pharmacies to manufacture drug formulations that are no longer mass manufactured and to compound agents into forms and tastes that are easier to administer to the avian/exotic patients. Other than compounding pharmacies, regular pharmacies may compound certain drugs they have in their inventory for a specific case or provide that drug in the manufactured form so inventory does not need to be maintained at the veterinary hospital for a drug that is rarely used. It is important to remember that just because a drug is rarely used does not mean that it is not a treatment option. The third generation cephalosporins are an excellent treatment choice for reptile patients but often patients will be treated with some other less desirable drug because the veterinary hospital does not have an inventory of these expensive drugs. Please use regular pharmacies, compounding pharmacies and hospital pharmacies when the occasion and need arises. Do not be afraid to interact with professional pharmacists. Pharmacists cannot only provide drugs but also give advice on effective alternatives, new drug therapies, side effects associated with administration and possible help formulating dosages.

A recommended test is the Exotic Animal Formulary 3rd edition edited by Dr. J.W. Carpenter, published by Elsevier/Saunders. This is a very complete avian/exotic formulary listing dosages and references. When selecting an antibiotic the veterinarian should know if it is bacteriacidal or bacteriastatic, how it is administered, if oral administration is the route of choice, how well is it absorbed through the gastrointestinal tract and disseminated through the body, species variation relating to dose and major side effects of the drug. Of course there are other considerations but if one does not apply this thought process into the selection of antibiotics and other therapeutic agents the success of treating avian/exotic patients will be greatly reduced. Below I have listed antibiotics that are commonly used in avian/exotic practice. This is not a complete selection, but one that gives an overview to the types of agents one must use to successfully treat microbial infections in avian/exotic patients. These antibiotics are not only effective in treating infections affecting avian/exotic species but other species as well.

Commonly used antibiotics in avian/exotic practice:1

1. Bacteriocidal — extended- spectrum penicillins; amoxicillin, ampicillin, carbenicillin, ticarcillin, piperacillin

2. Bacteriocidal — β-Lactamase inhibitors/clavulanic acid; amoxicillin-clavulanate, ticarcillin-clavulanate

3. Bacteriocidal — first generation cephalosporins; Cefadroxil, Cefazolin, Cephalexin, Cephalothin, Cephradine

4. Bacteriocidal — third generation cephalosporins; Cefotaxime, Ceftazidime, Ceftiofur

5. Bacteriocidal — aminoglycosides; amikacin

6. Bacteriocidal — trimethoprim-sulfa

7. Bacteriocidal — fluoroquinolones; ciprofloxacin, enronfloxacin

8. Bacteriostatic — macrolides; erythromycin, tylosin

9. Bacteriostatic — tetracyclines; chlortetracycline, doxycycline, oxytetracycline, tetracycline

10. Other (Cidal against anaerobes) — nitroimidazole; metronidazole

As mentioned previously, the above list is just a fraction of the antibiotic agents available, but are the most common used in avian/exotic pet medicine. It is useful and often recommended to use bacteriocidal agents when possible, but certain diseases respond better to agents that may be bacteriostatic (e.g. Chlamydiophila psittaci, drug of choice is doxycyline). Disease specific antibiotics also highlight the need for a proper diagnostic workup to definitively diagnose the illness in order to prescribe the correct treatment. Again, avian/exotic patients respond well to the proper treatment but die quickly if the proper treatment is not administered.

There are certain antimicrobial agents that are more effective when used to treat specific areas of infection in the body. The historical use of certain antimicrobials and their effectiveness in treating infections is an important consideration but should not overshadow the importance of culture and sensitivity, especially when treating avian/exotic patients.

Antimicrobial agents commonly used to treat bacteremia/septicemia cases include synergistic aminoglycoside and penicillin or cephalosporin therapy, enrofloxacin with amoxicillin, penicillins and for anaerobic infections chloramphenicol, clindamycin and metronidazole.1

Penicillins, cephalosporins, doxycycline, trimethoprim-sulfa, fluoroquinolones are often used to treat anaerobic soft tissue infections while clindamycin or metronidazole are used to treat anaerobic soft tissue infections.1

Respiratory tract infections are one of the most common disease presentations involving avian/exotic species. The drugs of choice for respiratory infections are penicillins, cephalosporins, tetracyclines, trimethoprim-sulfa, chloramphenicol, fluoroquinolones, doxycycline, macrolides and for anaerobic infections clindamycin or metronidazole.1 Antibiotics can be administered through nebulization techniques and nasal flushes

Thank you so much for all this information ! I really hope this'll work, he's persisted for so long. How much liquid food do you give your parrots at a time? I give mine in circa 3 hour intervals in case he doesn't eat anything approximately 1.5-2 ml at a time. Is that good for a young male cockatiel?

 

[Laurasea]

If he is not eating anything at all on his own you can go to 3-5ml. But if he is eating on his own and not loosing weight that sounds good. Becareful of making your own concoction, in that forcing them to take excess liquid can be hard on them too, you can over load them on liquid. Its all a balancing act, adjusted to your bird and your situation. We both learning. Im learning as I go too.

Did you get your test results back? I'm glad you git your medicine. How's your bird doing?

 

[Tiel]

If he is not eating anything at all on his own you can go to 3-5ml. But if he is eating on his own and not loosing weight that sounds good. Becareful of making your own concoction, in that forcing them to take excess liquid can be hard on them too, you can over load them on liquid. Its all a balancing act, adjusted to your bird and your situation. We both learning. Im learning as I go too.

Did you get your test results back? I'm glad you git your medicine. How's your bird doing?

It's a weird thing where he eats little to nothing on his own, but when whenever I give him 1-2 ml of his formula he almost immediately goes to eat some seeds or pellets (I only provide him with his favorites since I just need him to eat). Whenever I realize that he hasn't eaten for hours I give him a little bit of the liquid and wait til he digests everything (meaning 3-5 hours).

Unfortunately the feces could not determine anything, the doctor said that the droppings test can only determine a fraction of pathogens which's why we decided to start with amoxicillin. It took a rough few days for the antibiotic to arrive due to Covid and I made sure to supply him with fluids during that time since he barely drinks water either. I want to warm him up with a pad or a towel but (thankfully) he has enough strength to fly away or defend himself lol. So instead I just keep my room very warm. This is day 1 of giving him amoxicillin, I really look forward to improvement. I'm going to make sure to update as soon as possible

 

[Laurasea]

Sounds like what you are doing is working. That great. You are doing great taking care of him ! I hope you can tell us how he is improving too!
If you read my thread, it seems the iris can darken with a systemic bacterial infection, not a lot of info out there. Pretty dramatic in my blue eyed boy tho.
So can you take a picture of your birds eyes? We can see if this holds true for you as well. Fir my curiosity?,

 

[Tiel]

Sounds like what you are doing is working. That great. You are doing great taking care of him ! I hope you can tell us how he is improving too!
If you read my thread, it seems the iris can darken with a systemic bacterial infection, not a lot of info out there. Pretty dramatic in my blue eyed boy tho.
So can you take a picture of your birds eyes? We can see if this holds true for you as well. Fir my curiosity?,

Sure! I hope these are good enough, if not don't be shy to tell me and I'll take new ones (do you need them with flash?)

 

[Laurasea]

Looks good. Now we wait sbd see if look different after medicine, in a week or so. Look back at your pictures of him before he was sick see if his eyes looked lighter in color

Nice to see your handsome boy!
Please take some of your other burds eyes too.

 

[Tiel]

This is Haku right now whenever I don't look at him, I took this picture secretly

 

[Laurasea]

Awww does look sick...
Warmth is so important for sick birds.
Moving the cage to an interior wall will help keep drafts and cold pockets away while healing.
You have got to find a way to increae warmth. A towl then heating pad then towel on top of cage and drape cage may help. Watch fir safety and chewing. You might aldo out one sandwich between toerld. on bottom if cage abd run cord through a pvc pipe to protect from chewing. I'm sure Germany is cold right now. Yiu don't ever want a sick burd laying on a heating pad even with towels because tgey csn be to week yo move off and over heat or get burned.

A bird that is sleeping all the time and sick. Need to be kept caged and warm. You are trying to have his environment be 80-85f
Think of your bird as needing hospital care, as birds show signs if being sick are usually as sick as a person in the hospital. Tgey need special care by you. Rest warmth, low stress, easy scces to food and water . Offer millet spray, egg food, ground pellets normal diet, treats what ever you csn get them eating. Cooked plain pasta has good calories but nit much else, muxceith cooked veggies, they might eat everything thst way.
https://birdsupplies.com/blogs/news/159197063-how-to-make-a-parrot-hospital-cage

https://birdtricksstore.com/blogs/birdtricks-blog/setting-up-a-hospital-cage-for-your-bird

https://parrotsnaturally.com/signs-of-a-sick-bird/

 

[Tiel]

Awww does look sick...
Warmth is so important for sick birds.
Moving the cage to an interior wall will help keep drafts and cold pockets away while healing.
You have got to find a way to increae warmth. A towl then heating pad then towel on top of cage and drape cage may help. Watch fir safety and chewing. You might aldo out one sandwich between toerld. on bottom if cage abd run cord through a pvc pipe to protect from chewing. I'm sure Germany is cold right now. Yiu don't ever want a sick burd laying on a heating pad even with towels because tgey csn be to week yo move off and over heat or get burned.

A bird that is sleeping all the time and sick. Need to be kept caged and warm. You are trying to have his environment be 80-85f
Think of your bird as needing hospital care, as birds show signs if being sick are usually as sick as a person in the hospital. Tgey need special care by you. Rest warmth, low stress, easy scces to food and water . Offer millet spray, egg food, ground pellets normal diet, treats what ever you csn get them eating. Cooked plain pasta has good calories but nit much else, muxceith cooked veggies, they might eat everything thst way.
https://birdsupplies.com/blogs/news/159197063-how-to-make-a-parrot-hospital-cage

https://birdtricksstore.com/blogs/birdtricks-blog/setting-up-a-hospital-cage-for-your-bird

https://parrotsnaturally.com/signs-of-a-sick-bird/

I just made Haku some veggie soup with carrots, potato and pepper! I blend it together and he drank a couple sips from it, enough to give him energy to eat some millet. I really tried providing him with a towel or some type of heat but he will straight up refuse to be "restricted". He's still very good at moving around and can still fly and escape if he wants to (he's very stubborn). I've tried to separate Haku in his cage but he and his mate (Hendrix) both get extremely anxious when they're separated and whenever they're IN the cage, they scream sometimes hours to get out :/ spoiled! I am definitely going to move the cage away from the window though, that's something I didn't think of yet. I really hope Haku's stubbornness also wins against whatever he has right now <3 I believe in my baby boy thank you so much for your help, I can tell that you have a very profound love and kindness for birds and their owners

 

[Tiel]

Story time on Hakus stubbornness:
A couple months ago when we visited the vet, he got his blood sampled, and a couple seconds after getting his blood sampled he literally bit the vet and flew around the praxis??? He's such a big, crazy and stubborn personality lol. The vet said that he rarely meets cockatiels that are THIS persistent when it comes to escaping.

 

[Tiel]

Hey guys, day two on Amoxicillin

I still have to feed Haku through a syringe in order for him to eat in the first place. I always give him a bit of liquid food so he has enough energy to eat millet or seed.

Honestly right now I'm so scared because I don't know wether putting him on antibiotics was the right decision. It all started with that neon-yellow poop and slime and bubbles and the extreme loss of appetite. Then, while I was waiting for the antibiotic to arrive his poop got significantly better but I was still left with a lethargic, almost depressed looking cockatiel. I really hope putting him on antibiotics is the right thing to do. I feel like he's more lively now but he's still obviously sick and has little to no appetite. I think that can also be a side effect from the antibiotic. Talking about side effects: this is how his poop looks like now. It's pretty bad but I've heard general antibiotics can cause digestive issues.

 

[Tiel]

Guys I think the medication is working?
He seems to try to eat by himself! I'm crying from happiness lol

 

[Laurasea]

The poop has lots of fecal matter so you are getting food into him or he is eating a good amount.

Its greener, if ate veggies then ok . A little better but not a terrible poop. I wish some cockatiel owners would weigh in.

Many people avoid sick bird posts, cuz stressful and they don't always know whst yo say.

Bug nnflock has cockatiels. I'll see if she will weigh in.

 

[Tiel]

The poop has lots of fecal matter so you are getting food into him or he is eating a good amount.

Its greener, if ate veggies then ok . A little better but not a terrible poop. I wish some cockatiel owners would weigh in.

Many people avoid sick bird posts, cuz stressful and they don't always know whst yo say.

Bug nnflock has cockatiels. I'll see if she will weigh in.

I've given him some potato/carrot soup with lentil this morning and he drank a bit of that. He's been voluntarily eating this evening, I'm way more optimistic about his appetite now

 

[Laurasea]

You have really done a great job. You went the extra length fir veterinarian consultation, tests, and having medicine shipped to you, abd making foods. I'm sure hopeful thst he gets better!

 

[bug_n_flock]

Hmm, sorry for the delay first of all! Sorry your baby is under the weather.



Yeah, tiel poop is usually much much tigheter and drier than that. But with all the soups and extra liquid and antibiotics it isn't surprising the little guy isn't feeling so good. Are you offering any probiotics?



How is his appetite and droppings and behavior now? I hope he is still on the mend.