Aggression, Protecting or Scared

[labell]

You've received some outstanding advice already regarding Zazu. I'd only like to add that, even though is does look hysterical, please try not to laugh out loud, because for Zazu that's like 'applause applause...let me continue my chase'.

I had a mature male YN like that once (for a brief period of time). I named him Rambo (for a reason). He was an angel while in quarantine. Then he was introduced to the rest of the flock, laid eyes on my Hunter (mature FEMALE YN), and promptly did a 180 on me. :11:

After clipping his wings, this bird chased me through the house on foot, so I decided I was gonna be brave and 'just' wear some heavy duty boots. Yeah, well, Rambo promptly latched onto the boots while proceeding to climb up my jeans, tearing holes on his way up. And QUICKLY, too.

Amazons in 'that' state are no joke. I bear the scars to prove it.

Almost to a T what happen with Belle..so sweet in quarantine. Once he got an eye full of Brady it was game on. We weren't even into real amazon "breeding season" either but he was a completely different bird and seriously out for blood and got it, through my clothes even!

 

[Birdman666]

Yep!

I really believe that unless you want to breed, amazons should be kept in same sex pairs if you are going to have more than one.

THIS (and people getting them worked up to overload, and then trying to pick them up) is where amazons bad reputations as aggressive birds come in, and it is in a lot of respect deserved. These birds will get crazed and bite when "in a state." Even otherwise loving birds.

And, oh by the way, MALES establish and protect the nest.

FEMALES do not.

My "keeper" zons (with the exception of Bob) have all been females. That wasn't an accident.

Which DID NOT make working with hormonally aggressive males any easier!!! Trust me, I've had years of practice on this one...

 

[JerseyWendy]

And if they're flighted? FORGET ABOUT BEING ABLE TO CONTROL THEM! And they will go after your face... So, absolutely, clip them during breeding season if they get territorial... It is a safety issue!!!

Yes, they will. WHY is that though? WHY do they go after the face with such vengeance? Rambo did exactly that while he was flighted. It was downright scary! And the noises coming from him as he was trying to 'kill' me were like something straight out of a horror movie. :32: Nope, I'm not kidding nor exaggerating here, he scared the "Amazon" right out of me (don't wanna have to censor myself here...)

 

[Birdman666]

It's where we are most vulnerable to them, and where we have the least amount of leverage to control them, AND DON'T THEY FRIGGIN' KNOW IT!!! And to be even more specific lips, noses, and eyes is what they go for. THUMBS when you're trying to step them up. Almost always the thumb! (Which is exactly why a bird who is NOT 100% trustworthy shouldn't be a shoulder bird... by the time you get them under control the damage is done.)

And it's usually a surprise attack (unless you count ignoring the tail flairing, eye flashing, vocalization, get out of my territory displays as those are the only warnings you will ever get. Ignore them at your own peril. If your bird is doing that, this is a more than a hint.) they aren't going to forgive the intrusion once they tell you what they intend to do if you don't back off. Take one step too many and it is an IMMEDIATE launch at your face... The tail flair/hackles up/eye pinning stuff IS the announcement of their intention to strike.

I cannot even count the number of times I heard an owner say, "I don't know what happened. One minute he was being all friendly, and vocal, and displaying, and the next minute, when I walked up to the cage he just launched himself at my face and tried to rip my lips off...MY BIRD HATES ME!!!" No. He's hormonal. He did the territorial intrusion display. You then intruded on the territory. Simple cause and effect.

With the flighted zons, it was forearm up to protect my face, and deflect them from their flight path. THEN IMMEDIATELY TOWEL before they can get themselves in a position to launch again. (They will start displaying again. That's when you get them!) Then SHORT CLIP... AND WATCH YOUR TOES! '

Then time out on a playstand in another room. I usually left them in the back bedroom on the playstand for 2-3 days. Seemed to do the trick most of the time.

You guys are making me miss teaching bird handling classes!

 

[groovieguy]

Thanks so much Birdman.
I removed the ladder again and will keep them that way. So today when my son gets home from school ZaZu thought he would go to the ladder, oh No Ladder, I will get down there so he thought. I showed my son what to do with the towel as he was trying to get down another way, Zazu did not like it but he did go back to the top, then tried it on another side, not happening here comes mister towel.
He finally settled down and went back in his cage after about 5 try's.

I have to find a play stand that he will use, I have one made out of PVC, he will not go on it. I also made one with some Java wood and he won't go on that one either.
Any suggestions there?

Thanks Again, I am learning more and more about these amazing birds.
I will need to take him and get his feathers and nails done.

 

[Birdman666]

That's an excellent first step. And just getting them to back down the first time is usually the struggle.

Be consistent with it, and eventually he'll just strut back and forth on his playstand with his vocalizations and his eye pinnings. And you let him do that, and just let him be. Don't approach him. The attacky stuff stops.

Only FIVE tries?! Mine were more stubborn than that! That's actually really good...

It does work. Like I say, you don't eliminate this one, but you can get it under control. Time will eliminate it for you when the hormones calm down.

In my household? I had multiple playstands. My zons always liked the one with the big round hoop though, THESE:

http://birdcages4less.com/page/B/PROD/PA5709?gclid=CKm7ifCalMMC***6gQodIXQArA

Or a bird boing on a hanger. With a couple of toys... that was Sally's favorite. Until she got her little tree on a table. Now she never even goes back to her cage... (unless the other zon is on it. Then, THAT'S MINE!)

 

[Birdman666]

Thanks so much Birdman.

I have to find a play stand that he will use, I have one made out of PVC, he will not go on it. I also made one with some Java wood and he won't go on that one either.
Any suggestions there?

Zons tend to recoil in horror at the sight of something, or instantly fall in love with it. They are very opinionated that way.

Sometimes you just have to put them on it, and put them back on it, and put them back on it again. Then, suddenly, they love it...

It helps if there are interesting things on the playstand... Like a couple of favorite toys, or a favorite food item. Get them interested in that item, and put THAT on the playstand. Suddenly they want to be there...

 

[Birdman666]

Hey! Do everyone a favor!

How about videotaping the behavior mod, the next time he pulls this one, so we have a 100% complete instructional post on how to deal with hormonally aggressive amazon issues, complete with the progress videos...

So we can just link people to this one, and show them that this is how you deal with these behaviors...

BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT THE FIRST, AND YOU WILL NOT BE THE LAST!!!

Actually, not to break my arm patting myself on the back, but this could turn out to be one of the more useful posts in the amazon section.

 

[JerseyWendy]

Actually, not to break my arm patting myself on the back, but this could turn out to be one of the more useful posts in the amazon section.

ROFLMAO! @ the bolded part! We're only slightly full of ourselves, right? :54:

If you take the time and scroll through the extensive Amazon section, there are tons and tons of awesome articles and videos.

 

[Birdman666]

I realize it came off pretty bad. But, having an actual video of someone physically doing the behavior mods for hormonal aggression, and seeing the bird react and improve is what I meant.

If we got that on video.... because this does tend to be the issue with zons. (Well, that and vitamin A deficiencies, and seed junkie-ism...)

And that's the issue that gets these birds re-homed time after time.

And to be able to get this one on video, and use it as an example. Here's a bird that was chasing people around the room, and here's the same bird backing off and going back to his cage when confronted with this behavior mod. And here's that same bird a few weeks later, staying put, and behaving...

I just think it would be a really useful teaching tool for everyone else if he videoed the progress... because theories are one thing. Actually visually seeing it as it happens is something completely different.

 

[henpecked]

Hey and welcome to the forum. I'm just south of you in Palmetto. The actions you're describing are very common with zons who have bonded to someone and don't have good social skills. Loads of good advice here but the core of the problem is socialization. It's easier to do when they're young but you can still fix it now. 6 yrs old is still pretty young. I'd suggest,, the favorite person is careful when others are around. Don't make it a popularity contest. When a non favorite person is interacting with the bird the favorite person needs to say well clear. Yes hormones are more of an issue at this time of year but do something to "shake up" his world. Get him a little out of his comfort zone. Move his cage, change some routine, something that is out of his control. He's calling the shots and being in control. He's controlling you with his actions. have a nonfavorite person be incharge of giving him a favorite treat. He only gets that special treat from a nonfavorite person. The favorite person needs to start taking more charge and making decisions for him. Stop petting him before he's ready, put him away before he wants to go, ignore his calls for you. Leave him wanting more interaction instead of pushing him and him telling you NO. (with bites and attacks). Zons need good socialization and strong confident leader. BTW i'd keep as close to the center of action in your home as i could. PS have the nonfavorite peoples play "harder to get", don't be so "available". Don't let him drive someone away with his action if possible. If he's "striking" at the cage when they walk up,,,,stand there until he grows tired and quits. Don't let him think his aggressive behavior is helping to control his situation. loads of older threads on this subject.

 

[groovieguy]

I realize it came off pretty bad. But, having an actual video of someone physically doing the behavior mods for hormonal aggression, and seeing the bird react and improve is what I meant.

If we got that on video.... because this does tend to be the issue with zons. (Well, that and vitamin A deficiencies, and seed junkie-ism...)

And that's the issue that gets these birds re-homed time after time.

And to be able to get this one on video, and use it as an example. Here's a bird that was chasing people around the room, and here's the same bird backing off and going back to his cage when confronted with this behavior mod. And here's that same bird a few weeks later, staying put, and behaving...

I just think it would be a really useful teaching tool for everyone else if he videoed the progress... because theories are one thing. Actually visually seeing it as it happens is something completely different.

I will see what I can do.
I tried getting him on video doing his partly raised wings, shaking them and making his noise to get my attention, but the lighting was bad.

 

[groovieguy]

Thanks Henpecked for all the info.
I did another video and hope everything is correct that I put on it, I am still a newbie and am learning. ZaZu has gotten better, he isn't pacing as much and isn't partially raising his wings to get my attention. I have also taken him outside to a perch I have in the screen room and he is tolerating it.
Please let me know if the video is ok.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJCBJ3sBWPU"]Hormonal Behavior Amazon Parrot - YouTube[/ame]

 

[henpecked]

Thanks for the vid. Some zons just don't like "small people", kids. I wonder if that's the case here. Would he have acted different if you weren't so close by? IMO your son shouldn't have been so close as that he felt the need to drive your son away. When he came down that's exactly what happened. that reinforces his actions. he's exercising control over his situation. have your son interact with him from far enough away that the bird doesn't feel the need to run him off. maybe get closer when he stops pinning and flaring the tail. Your pushing the interactions to where he's forced to say NO. Instead keep your distance and play(show interest) in the peanut and wait for him to make the move to you., Avoid situations where he displays the unwanted behavior. Play harder to get and leave him wanting more of your attentions. PS you need me to send you a couple of dragon wood perches. those dowel types aren't good for his feet, sort small for his feet also. Something about 1 1/2" diameter would be better, especially a natural safe wood perch.

How does he act around you? Is he just a "loner"? Could you move his cage into the TV room, near the kitchen, somewhere there's more people/activities? I think you said you've had him for a couple of months or so?

Alittle insight into wild amazon behavior,,,only the strongest,smartest pair rule the flock. Flock members don't change much but when a new/young bird enters ,that bird naturally test the situation to see if the strongest/best bird is leading the flock. The lead bird makes the decisions, where to feed,when, on what,roost spots,etc. Most any zon will test the situation however most are comfortable so long as there's a strong,confident leader in charge. A bird that has been on his own has learned only to rely on his self and is his own "King". Socialization,socialization,socialization. once he makes a friend the next friends are easier to make. Your task is to recognize your chances/opportunities to fulfill that leadership role. make small decisions, win those small battles and avoid him controlling his situation. Good luck and try to see the world thru his eyes.

It's great for an amazon to grow up in a family environment, for everyone involved. Thanks for joining to learn more about him. The more your family interacts with him the more he becomes part of your flock. IMO my zons miss my kids now that they're grown and gone. I also know how much more my kids are aware of animals and life in general because of having pet zons. Putting effort into that relationship with your zon will pay huge dividends.

Sorry, didn't mean to write a book.

 

[henpecked]

It's great you can take Zazu out and about. Can you put stands in different areas of the house? he doesn't appear flighted. Are you the only one who can handle him? I'd guess if he steps up , he's the type of bird who would run to your shoulder. Not a good place for him, yet. How sure are you of his age? I guess i need to read more of your earlier post.

 

[henpecked]

OK , i watched the "chase" video. That was rewarding to Zazu. he enjoyed that. He got exactly the response he wanted. he's going to want to do that every chance he gets. I'm not sure what the best response to that behavior is,,, but you're rewarding it by allowing it to happen. Example,, i had a zon who would strike at everyone who came near his cage. i moved the cage into the middle of a walk area where everyone had to walk close to his cage to get by. Everyone didn't play the slightest attention to him striking out at them. After a couple of days he realized his actions did nothing to change things. people walked by regardless of what he did. After a week he would only strike out if you talked or stopped by. Of course stand there until he calmed back down before leaving. he learns aggression won't make you leave. The peoples are calling the shots and not the bird. Now his cage is still where folks have to walk pass but he can be on top 24/7 if he wants and he doesn't attack folks anymore. He kind of likes people now. BTW his cage was between the kitchen and the den , so folks where carrying plates of food. He's your best friend if you have a plate of people food, LOL.

 

[groovieguy]

WOW, I just lost my whole reply to you. This time I am doing it in Word so I don't.
Thanks Henpecked, I will try to answer all your questions:
My son is 24 y/o
I did push the reaction so I could video it (Bad on my part)
I do need to take out the smaller perches as those were with the cage but the others are
1 1/8" is that still to small? Here is a pic, but besides the size you are saying to get a natural wood perches?
He is located the heart of the house (Breakfast nook) looks out towards the pool, also kitchen and family room.

I've had him since Sept. 13th, he was kept in a small cockatiel type cage for close to 3 yrs, and never been out or handled. I was told by the previous owners he was 6 y/o
He is really good with me and no bite yet. (Knock on wood) He will want scritches and when he wants he will step up. I take him for a walk around the pool patio and also have gone through the house. He does not stay for to long of a period as he will nibble my ear and wants to go back to the cage. (Atleast that is my interpretation)
If I have him on the couch and like on my stomach he will always want on my shoulder. He doesn't stay on my hand for to long then climbs up my arm to the shoulder. The last few times I worked with keeping him on my hand. When he holds on he has such a gentle touch as sometimes i'm afraid he will fall off.
He is going to get his nails and wings done this coming week.
I removed the ladders to make it harder for him to get down on the floor, also the towel has helped with this all he has to do is see it and he backs down.
Here is another video I think this is him wanting me? Sometimes he does it for quite awhile, I ignore this behavior and it has gotten better.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qy-tB4jLN8&feature=youtu.be"]Yellow Nape Amazon - YouTube[/ame]

 

[henpecked]

He sure is a good looking,healthy looking nape. In the second video i thought he might be walking a little "stiff leg" Which could be part of a aggressive behavior but i thought he might have been on too small a perch for too long. natural perches aren't "perfect' in diameter and wear on different parts of their feet instead of the same exact place that a dowel encourages. Does he have red spots on the bottom of his "pads'? His feet shouldn't be able to reach completely around their perch, in fact it should be 1 1/2 times the size of his loosely closed foot. About 1 1/2 " for the average size zons. Different sizes would be best. I've got plenty if you're down my way.

 

[groovieguy]

I will go and get some new perches for him tomorrow. You are about a 2+ hour ride from me, thanks for the offer though.
He doesn't have any redness on his pads.

 

[Birdman666]

I've had him since Sept. 13th, he was kept in a small cockatiel type cage for close to 3 yrs, and never been out or handled.

I removed the ladders to make it harder for him to get down on the floor, also the towel has helped with this all he has to do is see it and he backs down.

Here is another video I think this is him wanting me? Sometimes he does it for quite awhile, I ignore this behavior and it has gotten better.

Yellow Nape Amazon - YouTube

For a bird that handn't been handled in that long, he's actually quite tame, especially considering the fact that he is a hormonally challenged hot 3...

Mating displays are just that. They are displays that the bird does by instinct. As long as you are not the trigger for the hormonal aggression, I wouldn't worry about bird mate issues. Where you become the trigger, that's when you need to worry about overbonding and bird mate issues. This is just normal hormonal behaviors...

And, can I say I told you so. A lot of people see toweling as a last resort. I don't. (A hot 3 amazon isn't going to start plucking cuz you toweled him... nor will he become any more aggressive than he already is. In fact, it will usually give him an attitude adjustment.) This is boundary setting. They do pick this up very fast, though they are none to pleased with it at first...

You don't change bad behaviors by letting them fester, in fact, the longer they fester, the more the bird gets confused when you go to set boundaries. New home = new rules. These are them... this is how this works. (And they accept that, for the most part.)

After a short period of time, you won't even have to show him the towel. He'll just know that this is a no-no... Seems like he pretty much gets it already! THEY LEARN QUICKLY! (Which is also why it's so easy to inadvertently train them to do things we don't want them to do...)

HUGE IMPROVEMENT ALREADY if you ask me.

He's a smart one!