Apple seeds.

[BACON]

Ok recently I posted that I'd read that apple seeds are safe, only to get shot down soooo I thought I'd look up the article I saw.

It's by a man called EB Cravens and he writes for a parrot magazine I read. Home

'The hard to kill apple seed myth'

Apple seeds are not toxic to parrots. Parrot flocks in Australia and Central America are know to go into apple orchards looking for the seeds inside of apples, discarding most of the pulp just like my psittacines will occasionally do. We have questioned veterinarians and searched bird store inquires for over thirty years for one instance of a parrot getting sick from ingesting apple seeds, and never found one. A single society finch was claimed to have died from apple seeds, but that was in fact speculation because a postmortem examination was never done.
I have been allowing my parrot flock apple seeds for over 25years with no ill effects. This is myth is basically outdated aviculture that I still read in local publications-an old legend born years ago that refuses to die because of unfounded worries about toxicity to humans and the same inferences are passed on to birds. I have eaten my apple cores and seeds for at least 2decades now, for the added nutrition they give me. I learned from my conures. I can see why parrots seek these out first, they are very sweet and tasty!! The same worries are true of many persons holding on to the myth that chewing on apricots, plum or avocado branches are toxic to parrots. Not true. Since many owners choose to be concerned about the chemical compounds in foods that parrots eat, then it's ok to offer all these, if you wish, or don't if you wish. But we should all stop proclaiming such seeds will harm our parrots. One would have to gather and feed only the seeds of dozens of apples a week for many months to envision any affects to you birds.




Ok.... Like I said, ^^not my words, something I've read. Comment, agree/disagree at your will. Just don't blame me

 

[TessieB]

I've often wondered if the apple seed is dangerous or is the insecticide used to produce a shiny red apple the true culprit.

 

[MrsKay]

That sounds like E.B.Cravens opinion. Considering the controversy over the issue I see no reason to take a risk with the wellbeing of my bird.
Speaking of myths, I wonder if an apple tree ever sprouted out of his ears after eating those seeds? Hehe

 

[Phlox]

I found this online...

LD50 for the rat taking sodium cyanide is 6440 microgram/kg rat weight

NaCN is 0.53 CN.. thus, for a rat LD50 is 3413 micrograms/kg rat weight.

An LD50 is the amount of substance it takes to kill 50 percent of the animals.

Second assumption that the same amount it takes to kill a rat will kill a human

3413 micrograms CN/kg x 130 lb/2.2 lb/kg = 201577 micrograms ~ 202 milligrams

Lets assume the paper below has the same amount of cyanide in apple seeds as in the common Vetch seed. So the cyanide compounds are found at 0.74 micromole/g of vetch seed. The molecular weight of cyanide is 12+14 = 26 so that means 19.2 microgram/g apple seed.

201577 micrograms / (19.2 micrograms CN/g apple seed) = 10504 g apple seeds

10504g/1000g/kg = 10.5 kg apple seeds x 2.2 lb/kg = 23.1 pounds of apple seeds

Of course that assumes you would be able to digest the seeds sufficiently to get the full dose and sufficiently quickly to reach the required toxic amount before it is removed from your system. And not vomit.

If you assume 5 grams apple seeds per apple that is 2100 apples

Source: Vicianin, Prunasin, and ?-Cyanoalanine in Common Vetch Seed as Sources of Urinary Thiocyanate in the Rat - Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (ACS Publications)

So assuming the same for birds, we're still taking a LOT of apples.

 

[weco]

This is part 1 of 2, the forums message post systems is character limited!





Greetings Matt,


This will be a bit long, but maybe it will answer your question and those of others who have posted to this thread and the earlier one you mentioned.


First, E.B. Cravens is Ed Cravens, a recognized aviculturist, parrot breeder writer & commentator, who lives in Hawaii and his articles go back to the early to mid 90s, possibly even earlier. In the article you cited, I’m going to pull a couple of things out & address them. Cravens states “Apple seeds are not toxic to parrots.” He goes on to state “I have been allowing my parrot flock apple seeds for over 25years with no ill effects. This is myth is basically outdated aviculture…..” He also goes on to state “The same worries are true of many persons holding on to the myth that chewing on apricots, plum or avocado branches are toxic to parrots. Not true.”


While Cravens is recognized in aviculture, he is not scientifically recognized, at least, not that I know of. While there is a plethora of information available on and from the members of this forum, sometimes we need to do our own research. In the two threads (concerning apple seeds, apricot seeds, plum seeds, cherry seeds, etc.) you’re concerned about, I have offered responses as well as did others. Many times, with the ease of accessing information today, we see something that we like; it sounds good, but is it?


One of the responses offered a hypothesis, written by a Kevin Swiss in 2009, to answer a question on Yahoo Answers (https://answers.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ageb6P.UPU0CYpx4pN5biWQExgt.) Although the response posted to our threads included a citation, the included citation was wrong as it should have reflected the information to cite Mr. Swiss’ original online posting. A hypothesis does not provide a credible answer to your question, though it might look good.


While I prefer to look for data, to back up my statements, in a more easily verified location, I did a few random internet searches and found one that I thought fit the bill. We have members who prefer to believe in alternative medicines/theories and I thought this article spoke to them:


“Dear Suzanne, Apples and apple seeds do contain a lot of powerful phytochemicals way back in the 1970’s people started eating apple seeds, large amounts of them because of the Laetril content in them, doing this for Cancer . Many of these people got sick. At the same time I had many patients eating tons of apple seeds and they never got sick, why? Because my patients were eating a whole apple for every 8 or 10 apple seeds they ate, in other words I was having my patients eat and juice whole apples You can never get yourself in trouble with nature if you remember WHOLE and a … “ answered by a Dr. Schulze….. (Search Results: apple seeds: page:)


Dr. Richard Schulze purportedly maintains an herbal remedies forum; however, the basis for his doctorial title is unknown… (Dr. Richard Schulze Herbal Remedies Forum, Page 105, :)

Alternative Medicine Forums, Blogs, News, FAQs, Surveys, Knowledgebase on curezone.org The Curezone website offers this:


About CureZone.com / CureZone.org
page updated Jan 13th 2010


Educating Instead of Medicating
The CureZone.org /.com web sites were created to allow free flow of information with the main focus on : Educating Instead of Medicating.



During the 90’s, in the early years of World Wide Web, majority of health related forums, blogs and websites were strictly about established medical treatments, and any discussion on alternative and complementary medicine was strictly prohibited.
That is why CureZone was created. The idea was to allow people to talk about anything they want to talk about, as long as they are nice to each other.
The focus is on being nice to each other, on helping each other by sharing personal xperience and any information of interest.


The focus was on spreading ideas on Health and happiness instead of medications for those who need help and knowledge.


CureZone started as a personal homepage in Norway. Today, members of CureZone are health enthusiasts from all over the world. The majority of CureZone visitors are from English speaking countries and countries where English language is common, like UK, Australia, Canada, USA, China, India, Singapore, Russia, Phillipines, Brazil etc.


The mission of CureZone is:
Educating Instead of Medicating
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Next, I searched a couple of more scientific sites and found:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Thirteen patients admitted to the Pediatric Intensive Care Unit (PICU) of Erciyes University between 2005 and 2009 with cyanide intoxication associated with ingestion of apricot seeds were reviewed retrospectively.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]RESULTS:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Of the 13 patients, four were male. The mean time of onset of symptoms was 60 minutes (range 20 minutes to 3 hours). On admission, all patients underwent gastric lavage and received activated charcoal. In addition to signs of mild poisoning related to cyanide intoxication, there was severe intoxication requiring mechanical ventilation (in four cases), hypotension (in two), coma (in two) and convulsions (in one). Metabolic acidosis (lactic acidosis) was detected in nine patients and these were treated with sodium bicarbonate. Hyperglycaemia occurred in nine patients and blood glucose levels normalised spontaneously in six but three required insulin therapy for 3-6 hours. Six patients received antidote treatment: high-dose hydroxocobalamin in four and two were treated with a cyanide antidote kit in addition to high-dose hydroxocobalamin. One patient required anticonvulsive therapy. All patients recovered and were discharged from the PICU within a mean (SD, range) 3.1 (1.7, 2-6) days.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]CONCLUSION:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Cyanide poisoning associated with ingestion of apricot seeds is an important poison in children, many of whom require intensive care.” [/FONT]This article came from a database of the U.S. government’s National Institutes of Health Cyanide poisoning caused by ingestion of a... [Ann Trop Paediatr. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Remember, Ed Cravens said they're not dangerous.....



I also found a site where people were discussing the eating of these various seeds/leaves/barks/etc.:
To be fair, you really need to read the individual postings, rather than me posting an excerpt here. The link is: seed and pit edibility: please dispel myths from my childhood... - Not About Food - Chowhound

In the end, we, individually, must make our own decisions, based on the information we have (valid, verifiable information) as to what we want to eat and what to feed our bird(s)…as I mentioned earlier, too many times we read into something we want to hear or believe, when we should be weighing the efficacy of an item/statement/hypothesis against who (individual/manufacturer/vendor) is selling/offering/providing this item/statement/hypothesis against scientific and/or verifiable data.


I will concede that I do not pick out/remove apple seeds/pips from the apples I feed my birds, but I do not feed them apricot, peach or plumb pits. In the articles/discussions that spoke of people regularly eating these toxic substances, their bodies probably have built up an immunity to the toxin(s), as is the case of wild parrots eating toxic substances, then counteracting the toxin with salts & minerals from their favorite clay licks…..our companion birds do not have those clay lick benefits, even though there are people who would like us to believe (and for us to buy) that that this “manu” has the same properties and benefits of rainforest soils…..

 

[weco]

This is part 2 of 2, the forums message post systems is character limited!


Continuation


As to your having been “shot down,” sorry if I stepped on your feelings, here is your post:

“There is a article in my parrot magazine that says the apple pip thing is just a myth?? Not sure on the others tho. Must try blue on some cherries!!! I think she'd enjoy them!!”

And while I had no intention of “shooting you down,” here is my response…..

“Although I don't know what bird magazine might print that apple seeds/pips do not contain cyanide, you might want to read a more scientific journal, because they do contain trace amounts and consuming enough can make a bird sick, especially a bird that might have a compromised immune system and not be able to overcome the toxic substance amygdalin, which, when chewed and consumed/digested, combines with digestive juices to produce hydrogen cyanide.

Some older publications have been found to have published erroneous information in past years, but that's usually attributed to incorrect data that the misinformation may have been based on outdated studies or ones lacking efficacy.....

While not a scientific journal, back in 2005, the BBC thought Scotland Yard's determination of the danger of apple seeds/pips sufficient to mention it in an article about poisons and a terrorist:

BBC NEWS | UK | The deadly recipes

It's a good idea to check several sources about whats safe & what's toxic/dangerous to our feathered friends, that one mistake may not be recoverable.....cherries are fine, but not so their seeds.....”

With avocados, there are wild parrots in Florida that have been observed eating avocados right from the trees in peoples yards; however, the fact remains avocados contain persin, which is toxic.

AVOCADO
“Many people already know that avocado can be lethal to parrots if consumed. It is not known if it is just the flesh of the avocado and/or the pit that is the dangerous part. I was not sure if I believed this to be true until I saw the results of eating avocado with my own eyes several years ago. My neighbor and I had donated a pair of African Greys to another young man who was in our neighborhood. He loved these birds and cared for them well. One morning he appeared on my front porch, sobbing, with the dead male Grey and two dead Grey babies. He hadn't even known that the birds had laid eggs nor that they had chicks. He also had the very ill female in a small cage. I asked him to bring me their food tray as it looked like a toxin to me. Indeed, there was a large partially eaten avocado in the middle of the food dish. There were scraping marks on the pit that had been made by the birds' beaks. My young friend had given them the avocado because he had a tree in his yard and the birds had been consuming more food recently (feeding the chicks, of course). Our avian veterinarian could not save the female bird either so this was the sad end to the neighborhood breeding project! “


From Aves International- Dangerous to Birds

And

Toxicity to animals
Avocado leaves, bark, skin, or pit are documented to be harmful to animals; cats, dogs, cattle, goats, rabbits,[58] rats, guinea pigs, birds, fish, and horses[29][59] can be severely harmed or even killed when they consume them.



The avocado fruit is poisonous to some birds, and the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA) lists it as toxic to many animals including cats, dogs, and horses.[60] Avocado leaves contain a toxic fatty acid derivative, persin, which in sufficient quantity can cause colic in horses and, without veterinary treatment, death.[61] The symptoms include gastrointestinal irritation, vomiting, diarrhea, respiratory distress, congestion, fluid accumulation around the tissues of the heart, and even death. Birds also seem to be particularly sensitive to this toxic compound. A line of premium dog and cat food, AvoDerm, uses oils and meal made from avocado meat as main ingredients.[62] The manufacturer says the avocado's leaves and pit are the source of toxicity, and only in the Guatemalan variety of avocados, and the fruit is often eaten by orchard dogs as well as wildlife such as bears and coyotes.[63]

From Avocado - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia maybe not scientific, but it says what it needs to say...and...I was tired of writing this book.


Thank you for reading.....hope this clarifies some things!

 

[BACON]

That's a very well written post we co thank you, I've not the time to read it properly now... But I will

1st- is there any proof/reported deaths regarding apple seeds, Ed is saying there isn't.

2nd- I never mentioned pips/stones of avocado, apricots, plums, peaches or cherries merely there branches.

It's interesting tho, because it's well known that macaws/amazons etc eat things that are poisonous/toxic to them in there wild habitat, hence the reasons that they go to clay licks etc, soooo should we have some kind of thing for our birds?? How/what I've no idea?? Maybe the birds feeding on avocado in America have found something to neutralise the toxins in them??

 

[weco]

That's a very well written post we co thank you, I've not the time to read it properly now... But I will

1st- is there any proof/reported deaths regarding apple seeds, Ed is saying there isn't.

2nd- I never mentioned pips/stones of avocado, apricots, plums, peaches or cherries merely there branches.

I know you didn't, but I was trying to address everything that was brought up in those two particular posts.....

It's interesting tho, because it's well known that macaws/amazons etc eat things that are poisonous/toxic to them in there wild habitat, hence the reasons that they go to clay licks etc, soooo should we have some kind of thing for our birds?? How/what I've no idea?? Maybe the birds feeding on avocado in America have found something to neutralise the toxins in them??

There is a product (new within the past 5 years) on the market by Rolf Hagen’s HARI, that alludes to being a clay-lick substitute, but after reading their literature, the best I can figure out is that it’s a calcium supplement - (Tums antacid tablets are safe for and can be used for calcium supplementation in our feathered friends)…..they claim it’s an alkalinizing agent (so are antacids)…off the top of my head, the alkalinizing agents I’m familiar with are calcium acetate, calcium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate and potassium citrate…their website offers the following:

Clay Cal Benefits
• As an alkalizing agent, Living World Clay-Cal elevates the Ph factor in digestive system to promote good health and resist disease.
• Living World Clay-Cal offers calcium supplement for healthy bones and body tissue development
• Living World Clay-Cal is especially good for birds needing more calcium in their diets.
• Living World Clay-Cal has the capacity to absorb and adsorb toxic secondary compounds and impurities widely distributed in plant foods and in the bird’s environment.
• Examples of toxins that our birds are exposed to would be man-made toxic chemical and bacteria, fungal toxins found in foods. Also genetically manufactured foods, non-organics.

I had forgotten, but there’s an old thread about this stuff & going back and reading through it again, I got someone else upset with me: http://www.parrotforums.com/parrot-food-recipes-diet/31878-dietary-clay.html

Here again, a person needs to do their own research on what this stuff is, does and whether it is worth the investment.

 

[Mango121913]

Very interesting, and very enlightening.

 

[kq_fan]

I have never even thought about feeding them that. But whether its true or not I don't want to risk it. Because what if she is allergic and the response is death? I don't know and I have swallowed those seeds before and im still here and so is my uncle, he ate the hole thing! So I don't know its debatable!