Birds and Vitamin A

[Moxie]

I hope that I have chosen the correct place in the forum to put this if not then my apologies.

I wanted to share some information with you all and I am not trying to make anyone look bad or anything in that nature, because all that they are doing is repeating what has commonly been believed for so long.

Vitamin A and beta carotene are not the same thing. They do not do the same thing in the body, yes some beta carotene can be converted to vitamin A in some animal bodies it does not happen in all and there are quite a number of reasons that it wouldn't convert. Liver problems, low thyroid, lack of supporting nutrients, and so on. Even when it is converted the conversion rate is so low that it would take enormous amounts of beta carotene to make just a small amount of vitamin A. If that wasn't enough beta carotene is fat soluble meaning it requires fat for it to be absorbed. If you pierce a beta carotene soft gel you will find it is oily. So without some real butter on that sweet potato then you aren't getting much out of the beta carotene in it.

Here is a pretty good article on the subject.

https://www.dsm.com/markets/anh/en_US/Compendium/companion_animals/vitamin_A.html

I am for the moment going to with hold the source of this the following information but I promise that I will share it to you all in due time.

Dietary carotenoid that serves as a vitamin A precursor or pigment in some species. Found in dark green, yellow, and orange fruits and vegetables. Mammalian carnivores cannot utilize beta-carotene and the same may hold true for birds.

Please do not rely on fruits and vegetables as the sole source of vitamin A in your parrots/ birds diets. Vitamin A is vitally important to all body processes, it is in every cell inside the body. If you need more info on vitamin A and what it does please do not hesitate to let me know and I will gather up some information for you.

Oh and one last thing... please don't kill the messenger

 

[chris-md]

Hi Moxie,

Unfortunately this is problematic. You're advocating supplementation where vets are explicitly not. I'm curious: what do you know that medical professionals do not? Especially given that in certain species, like eclectus, to supplement specifically with artificial vitamin A has been documented to create deleterious health problems.

Lastly, to harp on the low conversion rate misses the fact that the low amount largely is the right amount they should be getting. By your logic, all our parrots are nutrient deficient, and that's just not true. Many of us have the blood panels/physicals/behavioral traits that to prove they are the picture of health.

As a matter of fact, I personally opine that the "need for extra vitamin A" is often overblown. Not wrong, but perhaps inflated in its importance at a 10 when its really a 3.

So yes, saying "don't rely on food, you have to supplement' is extremely problematic.

 

[Moxie]

Hi Moxie,

Unfortunately this is problematic. You're advocating supplementation where vets are explicitly not. I'm curious: what do you know that medical professionals do not? Especially given that in certain species, like eclectus, to supplement specifically with artificial vitamin A has been documented to create deleterious health problems.

Lastly, to harp on the low conversion rate misses the fact that the low amount largely is the right amount they should be getting. By your logic, all our parrots are nutrient deficient, and that's just not true. Many of us have the blood panels/physicals/behavioral traits that to prove they are the picture of health.

As a matter of fact, I personally opine that the "need for extra vitamin A" is often overblown. Not wrong, but perhaps inflated in its importance at a 10 when its really a 3.

So yes, saying "don't rely on food, you have to supplement' is extremely problematic.

I never advocated for supplementing any vitamin, A or any other. Food would ALWAYS be the preferred choice over any synthetic vitamin. Providing some animal protein would be more than adequate. I do not believe that they require large amount but I do know that they do require some.

I also didn't suggest that any parrot is nutritionally deficient. I keep reading on this forum to feed fruits and vegetables as a source for vitamin A . I am merely trying to give correct information. If you would prefer that I not give correct information with links from creditable sources then I will not. I do however believe that you overlooked one important sentence in the original post.

Mammalian carnivores cannot utilize beta-carotene and the same may hold true for birds.

 

[Laurasea]

That link is mostly very old sources, and seems to be directed at livestock with some dog and cat thrown in.

All creatures evolved to get need nutrients from food. Captive animals do not have access to foods they evolved to eat. Especially live stock that is kept on over grazed pastures in abnormally dense animal concentrations . The soil itself becomes deplete, especially in selenium.

I enjoy conversations, and learning, and new ideas. But I would want to see information and science articles more directed to avain. As they are separated from other animals by 300 million or more of evolution.

Dealing With Vitamin A Deficiency in Birds

This links to article about parrot poaching, and vitamin A deficiency. It talks about the differnt make up of vitamin A, and about finding tge needed source of this in the diet, like feeding sweet potatoes ect.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...rrot+nutritional+#d=gs_qabs&u=#p=YGucZ5e6R74J

This one is interesting as the sex and age of parrot as well as being paired or single effects dietary needs.
And one i was reading , there is a big difference in ground dwelling birds, verse parrots,, and a huge difference in parrots from tge America's verse old world parrots, abd parrots from more aired places. For example budgies evolved to be very good at storing " vitamins and nutrients " as they evolved in an area less nutrients dense than tropical rain forest parrots living in a high biodiversity nutrients rich area. ( should saved thst one I guess),
https://zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1748-1090.1998.tb02903.x

 

[chris-md]

I never advocated for supplementing any vitamin, A or any other.

Except where you say:

Please do not rely on fruits and vegetables as the sole source of vitamin A in your parrots/ birds diets

Not sure where else you would get it from, if not supplemented? Or why you're talking about mammalian carnivores?

I also didn't suggest that any parrot is nutritionally deficient. I keep reading on this forum to feed fruits and vegetables as a source for vitamin A .

Except the whole premise of your post is that we're not giving enough vitamin A...

You give some good basic biology, thats not in doubt. Beta Carotene is a precursor to vitamin A - some of us know that, most dont, so we use "Vitamin A" a as a catch all term. Yes its available in leafy greens and orange/red colored fruit. I think perhaps you're falling short of tying these very real facts to what your point is, which maybe could be explained better.

Are you trying to say give them more meat? Give them more sources of beta carotene? What is the point of the post? What are you trying to say? If its not "give them more vitamin A", then you've definitely lost your intended message.

 

[Laurasea]

I've been doing lots if reading. And many times find that a formulated diet like pellets may be to high in vitamin A. That eating foods with the precursor to vitamin A, parrots get the proper amount.

The information out there on parrot diets is all over the place, with almost all sources sites the lack of nutrition studies in parrots.

I definitely want to be feeding the best diet possible. I have one science article study in Amazon, that an all pellet diet is not the best.
All agree an all seed diet is bad. But when it comes to pellets the information is all over the place ....pellets are bad to much soy, incorrect levels of vitamins, not formulations for individual species needs. Or that pellets are the greatest thing ever, feed only pellets. Or pellets degrade, go rancid, oxidation, nutrition depletion from the formulations to processing, and preservation, to the actual nutrients when the parrot eats the end products. I can find info on both sides...

But I always find recommended to include fresh foods like veggies

So provide more info. We all want healthy parrots!

 

[SailBoat]

Interesting discussion!

The important thing to remember is that discussion in a forum setting have serious limitations in transferring information as a slight slip in word usage and the individuals intended message is at best on a sliding scale.

IMHO, and as stated above, supplementing a 'diet' must start with blood testing and 'if' a deficiency is uncovered then changing the 'diet' as the first step.

Also as stated above, there are major differences between Parrot species and their separate evolution on the different landmasses around this World.

At my advance age, I have seen major shifts in the definition of a Healthy Diet for Parrots. The long historic goal of a single 'diet,' the Pellet, which was seen as the salvation for all Parrots is now being seen as problematic for an ever increasing number of species.

Why do we say that the diet needs to be based around Veggies and too a less degree fruits is that the common diet provide Companion Parrots is the cheapest wild bird mix available locally.

To sum this up.

- Perfection is a truly a Wonderfull thing. But with the vast variation in Parrot species, a single diet is not the answer.
- Supplements without understanding what your specific Parrot needs is a waste of time and money.
- Adding supplements to drinking water is a waste of time and money.
- The 'flash' new member question, never to be heard from again requires a directional push, hence the effort to include Veggies into the diet...
- Best to include one's sources upfront as it /they help greatly to understand one's point.
- With the exception of Scott, darn few of us are capable of a perfect post.

All errors above have been computer generated!