cockatoo hybrids..?

[yazzmin]

I've just been looking around the internet for baby cockatoos and I found a few people selling hybrid cockatoos. so far I've seen Galah X Sulphur Crested and Galah X Short billed Corella babies that are either for sale now or have been sold, and they were all significantly more expensive than regular toos.

it got me wondering, what are the effects of creating hybrid cockatoos? from what I know, apparently it's okay to cross breed Macaws, but not Lovebirds, and I can find absolutely nothing about hybrid cockatoos. I'd love to buy one of these babies because they are super gorgeous but I'm not so sure I'm comfortable with buying something there is so little information on. I really don't want to fall in love with a bird only to have it get sick and die prematurely. if anyone has any experience with or knows anything about hybrid COCKATOOS specifically please share your knowledge :b

thanks


•edit•
I forgot to mention I HAVE found a little information on hybridization of cockatoos, but nothing on Australian ones. I figured its probably different, because people seemed to be against the cross breeding of M2 and U2's because of how different their personalities and natural habits and instincts are. I thought it might be different in the case of Australian native cockatoos because they are so similar that I almost always see flocks of corellas, sulphur cresteds and galahs eating together, as well as some wild hybrids.
also there's not much of a risk of messing up the gene pool for future generations, because all of the toos I mentioned are so highly populated here they're considered pests in certain areas.

 

[lee62]

Not having a go at you Yazzmin but I''ll be honest here I have really strong feelings regarding x-breeding different species/breeds of anything & don't apologise if this upsets anyone. Why humans want to bugger around with every animal by x-breeding them begiles and annoys the hell out of me (polite version), we are not god they are the way they are for a purpose, they don't survive in the wild if they do happen to xbreed.

Just look at what happens in the dog showing/breeding world and the breeds of dogs that are bred knowningly with defects, but hey, it looks good & these dogs have to live with the defects. And to be honest I don't have alot of time for people who buy the x's either. The only reason xbreeding occurs is it makes MONEY for the breeder, it has jack to do with any benefit for the bird/dog/animal. IMHO

 

[moni.k]

I have come across a few sites that have information on the cross breeding of cockatoos. I do know for a fact that in the wild, cross breeding does occur, although it isn't very common. The crossbred birds that have reached adulthood have not been sighted to mate and produce.

I totally understand what you mean about beauty, they are absolutely stunning. My favorite is the galah x goffins. However, beauty is as far as it goes. Although there is a basis of common cockatoo behavior, each 2 subspecies are different from each other in instinctual behaviors. I feel that crossing two subspecies can cause confusion to the bird later on and I don't see them as being great pets. I feel that it is something that is quiet new in the domestic world and wouldn't trust it. There isn't enough information on behavior, personality, health, etc. that would make me trust and believe they would be a great pet.

IMO I also don't believe in crossbreeding animals. Not that we are playing "god" but because it brings confusion and stress onto the animals as well as people. A prime example is wolf hybrids, although they may be beautiful. The animal is in constant confusion between the strong survival instincts of the wolf and the domestic part of the dog. In the end, they become too unpredictable and are in many cases locked away or euthanized because they are "dangerous". I would hate for the story to be repeated with these majestic birds.

 

[KatherineI]

I don't like crossbreeding either, pretty much for every reason already sighted. The unpredictability being the biggest one. Yes, they're pretty, but that's where it indeed ends.

I don't like it in dogs, cats, horses or birds. It's not so bad with Macaws, because a lot of them have been cross bred for so many years that it's easier to know the personality. But most cross breeds do not tend to be able to reproduce.

Yes, cross breeding in the past has been used with much success to create a numerous amount of animals we come across today. But a large majority of them where bred with a specific purpose in mind, and being pretty or aesthetically pleasing was usually least among them. I wouldn't bring a cross bred parrot home, but that's just me. Too's especially can be unpredictable enough as they are, but I can't imagine what breeding two different Too's could create.

 

[MonicaMc]

There is a lot of confusion about hybrids... and to be honest, it's hard to say anything in specific about hybrids because there are so many different "levels" of hybridization - from subspecies, to species within the same genera to species outside of their genera, and rarely, outside of their family.

Do I condone the act of hybridization? No, cause I don't like to see it, on any level! But, hybrids still interest me! A LOT! My reply will take several posts and it will be long... but I hope it is of interest!

Not having a go at you Yazzmin but I''ll be honest here I have really strong feelings regarding x-breeding different species/breeds of anything & don't apologise if this upsets anyone. Why humans want to bugger around with every animal by x-breeding them begiles and annoys the hell out of me (polite version), we are not god they are the way they are for a purpose, they don't survive in the wild if they do happen to xbreed.

Just look at what happens in the dog showing/breeding world and the breeds of dogs that are bred knowningly with defects, but hey, it looks good & these dogs have to live with the defects. And to be honest I don't have alot of time for people who buy the x's either. The only reason xbreeding occurs is it makes MONEY for the breeder, it has jack to do with any benefit for the bird/dog/animal. IMHO

There are a lot of hybrids out there that people don't even realize are hybrids. Many people unintentionally hybridize birds without realizing it, both on a subspecies as well as a species level. This isn't about playing "God" - it's about being plain ignorant. Money is also another factor, yes. Imagine if you are a big time breeder with huge aviaries of different species reproducing, and all you produce are pure birds. Now, your customers are pretty satisfied with your birds, but what if they suddenly decided they wanted the option to buy hybrids as well? You can either refuse to sell hybrids to your loyal customers, forcing them to go elsewhere (which may also result in them purchasing from other buyers their pure species) or you can fill that need and start producing hybrids. Do I agree with it? No, but from a business stand point, it makes sense to supply your customers with what they want - as long as what you produce is healthy.

Contrary to popular belief, hybrids do occur in nature. And they do survive. And they do reproduce. There are hybrid swarms and hybrid rings. Now, we can argue whether or not the hybrids in the wild are naturally occurring or not due to human encroachment, but the point stands, they do occur. In parrots, we have the Adelaide Rosella, which is a hybrid between a Crimson and Yellow Rosellas. Depending on the region that the Adelaides are from will depend on their colorations. They range from the reds of the Crimsons, to the oranges which are the result of the two species hybridizing to the yellows of the Yellow's. It really depends on which species is more prominant within the hybrid offspring. Another example? Lorikeets. Apparently, Rainbows, Musks and Scalys have been hybridizing two and three ways.

You can see some examples of the hybrid lorikeets in the following link (photos of both wild birds and a captive one)

Flickr: Search Hybrid Parrots

And the following link describes ring species and how gulls have been naturally hybridizing with other gulls.

Ring species - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've also personally noticed an increase in hybrid ducks and geese at ponds - although I believe this is more to idiots letting their domestic waterfowl loose in said ponds when they no longer want to or can care for their animals, and these birds in turn are reproducing with the wildlife.

Another member mentioned cockatoos hybridizing in the wild. There are several photos of such hybrids and occasionally an interesting word or two about such hybrid offspring.

There's also a few polar bear x grizzly hybrids that have been shot and killed - in the wild. I don't know if any of these hybrids have reproduced, though. Reading the following article I just found, I'm going to guess that they probably are.

Surge of hybrid polar-grizzly bear sightings befuddle scientists | Alaska Dispatch

As far as hybridizing being unhealthy for the offspring - that's not always true. It really depends on how closely related the parents are. The closer the parents are, the higher chance of healthier offspring. In fact, done right, hybrid offspring can be healthier than the parents due to the multitude of genes.

There is hybrid vigor (a term I've heard multiple times supposedly coined by dog breeders), which is where the offspring are healthier than the parent species, then there is outbreeding depression. Hybrid vigor is strongest in first generation offspring and less so in future offspring - unless you bring in a third, or fourth species into the mix. It's all about the amount of genetic diversity that's "available", and whether or not those genetics may benefit the birds. It shouldn't matter in captivity, but who knows.

Wikipedia on Hybrid Vigor
Heterosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and Outbreeding Depression
Outbreeding depression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Short one on Hybrid Swarms - which is what the Adelaide Rosella population is
Hybrid swarm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An interesting species - the Whiptail Lizard. Some reproduce via parthenogenesis and others do not. In other words, the entire species of those that reproduce via parthenogensis are female. Males do not exist. Females fertilize their own eggs (aka unisex), although it still requires at least two females for this to occur. And it is also believed that these species are the result of hybridization. (parthenogenisis has occured in other species, but that's going OT some)
Teiidae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I know it may sound like I'm arguing that hybridization is "ok", but truth is, I can argue either side of the coin! I don't like to see it happen, but I'm also saying that, if you do it right, it's not that bad. I'd personally rather see a responsible hybrid breeder than an ignorant one. That is, one that purposely produces hybrids that do not appear like pure species and sells the offspring as what they are; hybrids. I *DON'T* want to see someone stick two birds together that appear similar but are two different subspecies/species and then sell the offspring as pures. Sad thing is, this occurs frequently.

I have not heard of any health problems in subspecies hybrids in eclectus, conures, senegals, cockatoos and amazons. In species to species, I have not heard of any health problems in Alexandrines x Indian Ringnecks, Rosella Hybrids and Lorikeet hybrids. For that matter, I can't think of any in Amazons and African Greys. I *have* heard of health problems in Cockatoo, Macaw, Lovebird and Conure hybrids though.

I'm not trying to change your opinion on hybrids, only merely trying to "open up" your brain, since hybridization isn't as black and white as many people seem to think it is. I used to think the same way as I was led to believe that all hybrids are bad and that all hybrids have issues, but that's not always the case. I hope the information in this post may help broaden your view on the topic of hybridization.

 

[MonicaMc]

I have come across a few sites that have information on the cross breeding of cockatoos. I do know for a fact that in the wild, cross breeding does occur, although it isn't very common. The crossbred birds that have reached adulthood have not been sighted to mate and produce.

I totally understand what you mean about beauty, they are absolutely stunning. My favorite is the galah x goffins. However, beauty is as far as it goes. Although there is a basis of common cockatoo behavior, each 2 subspecies are different from each other in instinctual behaviors. I feel that crossing two subspecies can cause confusion to the bird later on and I don't see them as being great pets. I feel that it is something that is quiet new in the domestic world and wouldn't trust it. There isn't enough information on behavior, personality, health, etc. that would make me trust and believe they would be a great pet.

IMO I also don't believe in crossbreeding animals. Not that we are playing "god" but because it brings confusion and stress onto the animals as well as people. A prime example is wolf hybrids, although they may be beautiful. The animal is in constant confusion between the strong survival instincts of the wolf and the domestic part of the dog. In the end, they become too unpredictable and are in many cases locked away or euthanized because they are "dangerous". I would hate for the story to be repeated with these majestic birds.

You are right that hybridising two different birds, be it different subspecies (Citron Crested Cockatoo x Lesser Sulphur Crested Cockatoo or Galah x Western Galah) or different species (Galah x Goffin or Umbrella x Moluccan), may result in a conflict of behaviors within the hybrid offspring. This has been noticed in Peachface Lovebird hybrids. The hybrid offspring have been seen confused when it comes to nest building. They don't know whether to tuck the nesting material in their rump feathers like peachfaced lovebirds do or to carry it in their beaks like the "eye-ring" species do.

I've heard both sides of the coin in regards to behaviors in the large hybrid parrots. Some owners say that their hybrids are better in personality and behavior than both the parent species and others say that their hybrid birds are more neurotic than both parent species and have a higher chance of plucking than the pure species. This is mainly in regards to macaw hybrids, mind you... but many owners seem to have perfectly happy birds without any issues. Ya, sure, the birds may lean towards one species or another in behavior, but they don't exactly stand out compared to their pure species counterparts. Most owners of hybrids believe they are excellent pets! No worse than keeping a pure species. And there are many owners out there that don't realize that they own hybrids. If you own a green cheek conure, a black capped conure, a senegal, or any other common species with subspecies, there's a high chance that your bird is a hybrid.


I know there are hybrids out there that are 30+ years old, and some that are probably older, or their lineage goes back over 30 years of hybridization. It's not exactly "new" when it comes to parrot breeding, especially in eclectus when breeders used to think that males and females were two separate species, and once breeders realized that they are the "same" species, breeders started putting males and females together without any thought to subspecies. The same has occured in other species of parrots. Breeders being unable to correctly identify different subspecies (let alone species) and breeding willy nilly. I have heard that they are trying to rework the classification of different species, while still trying to figure out the different traits and characteristics of subspecies.



It's hard to compare dog hybrids to parrot hybrids, when you get down to it. All dogs are one species that were supposedly descendend from the timber wolf - although I question whether or not all breeds *did* descent from the timber wolf or not. I have heard that wolves (regardless of species) and the first few generation wolf hybrids (to domestic dog) do tend to make bad pets because they are timid and shy creatures that do not do well with strangers or new situations. Truth is, parrots as a whole are not domesticated. I have a first generation captive bred mitred conure and to me, he seems no different to any other conure out there that has been bred for multiple generations within captivity.

Here's something to ponder... supposedly, hybridization was used to create some of the domestic animals that we have now-a-days. What if the reason that parrots aren't domesticated is because we haven't been hybridizing them? (rhetorical, just food for thought)

Wikipedia has a list of domesticated animals and some that are semi-domesticated or domestication is unclear. Kind of interesting to look through it!
List of domesticated animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Domestication - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia <--- Hybrid domestic animals

And back to the subject of wolf hybrids... well, I met one that was 63%(?) wolf, and the rest was a mix of husky and german shepherd and I don't recall what else. This particular dog supposedly took after the GSD in him, without the hyperactive personality of one - and he howled! I don't know what generation hybrid he was, but he did not have the bad personality traits that many wolf dogs supposedly have. (friendly, fine with new situations, new people, new dogs, etc) He was a sweet and gorgeous dog! And the day his human had to give him up due to personal life, it tore my heart to pieces. He let out the most mournful and sorrowful cry that I've ever heard from a dog, and I wanted to stop and cry. In fact, I nearly did! If I could have, I would have snatched him up in a heart beat! Luckily, he found an amazing human the very next day!

 

[MonicaMc]

I don't like crossbreeding either, pretty much for every reason already sighted. The unpredictability being the biggest one. Yes, they're pretty, but that's where it indeed ends.

I don't like it in dogs, cats, horses or birds. It's not so bad with Macaws, because a lot of them have been cross bred for so many years that it's easier to know the personality. But most cross breeds do not tend to be able to reproduce.


Yes, cross breeding in the past has been used with much success to create a numerous amount of animals we come across today. But a large majority of them where bred with a specific purpose in mind, and being pretty or aesthetically pleasing was usually least among them. I wouldn't bring a cross bred parrot home, but that's just me. Too's especially can be unpredictable enough as they are, but I can't imagine what breeding two different Too's could create.

There's a difference between crossbred dogs, [domestic] cats and horses vs undomesticated parrots. For the most part, all dogs are the same species, all cats are the same species and all horses are the same species. However, within each species, there are different breeds. With the exception of English budgies and *maybe* show cockatiels, breeds do not exist in parrots.

Comment about macaws and the comment after it? Not exactly true. Most hybrids can and do reproduce. It's actually rare to come across a hybrid parrot that can't reproduce except in macaws.


Cockatiel x Galah - Fertility/Fecundity unknown
Pyrrhura x Large Conure - Fertility/Fecundity unknown
Rosella x Kakariki - Fertility/Fecundity unknown
Lorikeet x King Parrot - Fertility/Fecundity unknown
Conure x Amazon - Fertility/Fecundity unknown
Princess Parrot x Scarlet Chested Parakeet - Fertility/Fecundity unknown

Polytelis Hybrids (Princess, Superb, Regent) - Fertility/Fecundity unknown (I would guess Fertile)

Large Conure x Mini Macaw - Fertility/Fecundity unknown (I would guess Fertile)


Lorikeet Hybrids - Fertile as far as I'm aware
Cockatoo Hybrids - Fertile as far as I'm aware

Indian Ringneck x Alexandrine - Fertile
Other Psittacula Hybrids - Unknown but probably fertile

Australian Ringnecks - Probably Fertile

Rosella Hybrids - Fertile
Large Conure Hybrids (minus Patagonian, Thick Bills, Slender Bills, Astrals and Golden Conure hybrids - unknown) - Fertile
Pyrrhura Hybrids - Fertile
Amazon Hybrids - Fertile
Eclectus Hybrids - Fertile
African Grey Hybrids - Probably Fertile
"Eyering" Lovebird Hybrids - Fertile

Peachface Lovebird Hybrids - Sterile


The first ones labeled as "Fertility/Fecundity unknown" are hybrids that are so rare that there's very little information out there about them, let alone whether or not these birds can reproduce. The ones labeled as "Fertile as far as I'm aware" are those that I have not heard of any sterility within these hybrids. I'm sure there probably is, if two species that are not closely related were to be bred together - say an umbrella cockatoo and a black palm cockatoo. In fact, I am unaware of any hybrids from the black cockatoos, although the Handbook of Avian Hybrids lists that the black cockatoos have hybridized within their own subspecies (not species), and that there are wild hybrid zones. What I mean is that I am unaware of any black cockatoo hybrids to white/pink/grey cockatoos. It also mentions a Gang Gang x Galah hybrid... wonder what that would look like! Apparently, the Gang Gang's have also been hybridized with the Bare Eyed Cockatoos. Anyway, as far as the more common hybrids, well, they are pretty fertile in general.


And then we have macaws. Macaws are interesting. For as long as we've been hybridizing macaws, I have yet to hear of a hybrid that is 6th generation out from the pure species. I might not have spoken to the right people, but the point stands. Most of the hybrid macaws that you see are first to third generation hybrids. It is not common to see hybrids beyond that because many of the hybrids are sterile. I've even heard of one report that two hybrid offspring were born with internal birth defects that resulted in the birds having to undergo surgery to correct it. As common as some of the hyacinth hybrids are out there, I have only heard of one confirmed report of second generation hyacinth hybrids, and their offspring died. I am unsure if the offspring died due to 'failure to thrive' aka 'high chick mortality rates' (because of being hybrids) or if it's because of their parentage. The parents are siblings, and are the result of a catalina x hyacinth hybrid.

Hyalina hybrid macaws - a set on Flickr

 

[MonicaMc]

I've just been looking around the internet for baby cockatoos and I found a few people selling hybrid cockatoos. so far I've seen Galah X Sulphur Crested and Galah X Short billed Corella babies that are either for sale now or have been sold, and they were all significantly more expensive than regular toos.

it got me wondering, what are the effects of creating hybrid cockatoos? from what I know, apparently it's okay to cross breed Macaws, but not Lovebirds, and I can find absolutely nothing about hybrid cockatoos. I'd love to buy one of these babies because they are super gorgeous but I'm not so sure I'm comfortable with buying something there is so little information on. I really don't want to fall in love with a bird only to have it get sick and die prematurely. if anyone has any experience with or knows anything about hybrid COCKATOOS specifically please share your knowledge :b

thanks


•edit•
I forgot to mention I HAVE found a little information on hybridization of cockatoos, but nothing on Australian ones. I figured its probably different, because people seemed to be against the cross breeding of M2 and U2's because of how different their personalities and natural habits and instincts are. I thought it might be different in the case of Australian native cockatoos because they are so similar that I almost always see flocks of corellas, sulphur cresteds and galahs eating together, as well as some wild hybrids.
also there's not much of a risk of messing up the gene pool for future generations, because all of the toos I mentioned are so highly populated here they're considered pests in certain areas.

Sorry for my long winded replies. Now for yours. As I mentioned to a previous poster, not all hybrid macaws are "healthy" - there is sterility and a small amount of birth defects seen in hybrids. Some hybrids may have fertility problems, although it is unclear yet as to how much. Fecundity may be low in some hybrids. Hybridizing macaws is no different than hybridization in any other species out there. Depending on the closeness of the two species will depend on the overall health of the offspring. The least negative thing? (if it exists) Infertility and a conflict of behaviors. The worse? High chick mortality rates, birth defects and who knows what else.

I honestly haven't heard of hardly any issues within hybrid cockatoos. The one that I can recall is of a cockatoo that has FDB (Feather Destructive Behavior) because of Ovarian Cysts. It seems as if Dr Perry believes these issues stem from the fact that the bird is a hybrid, but I have my questions on the authenticity of that. In fact, I wonder if there are other [pure] parrots who may be plucking for the same reasons. However, there is no data to support that. I did find reference to an overly hormonal lovebird (blue black masked to be specific) that was thought to possibly have ovarian cysts and started plucking, but not proven. Then again, someone on this forum lost their green cheek x sun conure hybrid due to cancer at a young age. There really isn't enough data, let alone anything scientific, to say that there are in fact problems with hybrids from closely related species.


https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.469164399762908.107448.227528937259790&type=3


In short, if you want a hybrid, I'd say go for it! It's not the birds fault that they are hybrids and they still need loving, caring owners! If you don't want a hybrid, don't get one. Plain and simple. Love the bird for *WHO* he is, not *WHAT* he is. Pay more attention to the birds personality rather than how the bird looks, and you can't go wrong if you find a bird who's personality matches/fits with yours!

 

[MonicaMc]

Actually, I did mention that dogs, cats and horses are domesticated and parrots aren't.

I really didn't go over an ethical vs moral thing because everyone's opinions on hybrids vary, and many people don't really understand the entire hybrid debate, so are quite often ignorant about 'the other side'.



You mentioned mutations. Mutations and hybrids are not the same thing. They can be, as is the case of Alexandrine mutations in Australia, but otherwise, they aren't. Mutations are also rarer in larger species because it takes longer for these species to mature and to reproduce, thus a chance of a mutation randomly popping up is not very high... unless you mean that breeding for anything other than wild type birds for the benefit of the birds themselves...

Maybe I should say that as long as you have a "yellow" bird and a "blue" bird, you can always breed back to the normal, wild type species. It could take many generations and test breedings to get a wild type bird with no visual or split mutations, but not impossible. Once a bird is a hybrid though, the bird is always a hybrid - but there are breeders out there that believe that after X-amount of generations back to one parent species, you can 'breed out' the hybrid traits - which is true, but the bird still has hybrid blood.

But then I could throw in the argument that mutations occur naturally in the wild, and it can be something as subtle as the length of the beak changing to accommodate the birds diet, which I would then point you towards evolution being seen within Darwin's Finches.

"Instant" Evolution Seen in Darwin's Finches, Study Says



Granted, it is not a feather mutation, but it is still a mutation nevertheless. The article goes on to explain that the fourteen different species of finches on the Galapagos Islands all evolved from one species. Depending on what they fed on changed how they evolved into the birds that they are today.


So you can say that a mutation can result in a new species that somehow benefits the birds. What we see in captivity though, with all the colors and sizes? Ehhh... probably not.



The blue yellow naped amazons? Originated in the wild! And there's another blue amazon that may have also originated in the wild.
Blue Mutation Yellow-Naped Amazon | Voren's Aviaries Inc
The Blue Parrot Returns! - City Parrots -


And there are many cases of albino and pied animals in the wild. Does it benefit them? Not at all except perhaps for those species that live in snowy areas but these animals have been seen growing to adulthood.

 

[OgyG]

Hello to every body,
I have three baby birds hybrid cockatoos, the first chick is 10 months old, the other two are at 1.5 months old.
Parents: Sulphur Crested cockatoo (dady) and cockatoo Alba (mommy).
Parents have created a couple in love. This is natural selection.
We just tried to create a good environment for our birds.
We did not think about breeding, the birds just fallen in love each other.
Everything else is done by nature.
Excuse me for the mistakes.

 

[MonicaMc]

I would not consider that "natural selection" as the parents did not have appropriate mates to choose from within their own species, and well, it also occurred within captivity. That makes it completely unnatural.


I would love to include them in an online album for hybrid parrots! You can either create your own Flickr account (if you have Yahoo, then you should have access to Flickr) or I can upload them with your permission and any information you'd like to include about them?

Flickr: Hybrid Parrots

 

[OgyG]

MonicaMc
I'll be happy if you upload photos in online album for hybrid parrots. Thank you/
About parents:
Kapiton (dad) is 21 years old, living with us 5 years.
Janna (mommy) is 10 years old, living with us 1 year.
Tusya is the name of our first baby, Svetik (Sunshine) and Luchik (Sunbeam) is names of little babies.
My other birds - pair amazons, Ricko is Venezuelan Amazon (yellow winded amazon) and Vishka is surinam amazon (Amazona ochrocephala).
All birds live together in the daytime and fly freely in the apartment.

 

[MonicaMc]

Flickr: MFids' stuff tagged with cacatuaalba

OgyG, thank you! I've uploaded four of the images that you have shared! Let me know if you want me to correct anything I may have gotten wrong, or if there is anything you'd like me to edit out/in or change!