Extreme toe tapping/wing flipping?

[ortootto]

Toe tappin wing flippin here too, for 5 days long by now.
To the extreme. Only the male, the red one is thriving.

Birds are now completely off from seeds and pellett (strong and loud *****ing).
Added calcium and magnesium, while new diet consists of dark green leaves, carrots and some peas.

Symptoms are less bad, wing flip is over. But they screech and almost starve the poor fellas. They lost about 40grams of bodyweight.
By this morning (day 5) toe tap is almost over but not completely.
I gave em a bit of plain rice mixed with veggies and broccoli.
Now they feed big time.

I hope the symptoms will be over soon.
The vet said neither Ca nor Mg can be overdosed orally. Birds are about 7 months old.

I dont know if i did it right, any advice, tips and hints are welcome!!!
I know seeds and pellets are far from ideal but these two are addicts and i know i am hated now because of giving greens only.
Anyone of you who encountered TT / WF let me know what you did to eliminate it.
Thanks

 

[ortootto]

this is the patient

 

[Anansi]

Okay, let's tackle first things first. I'm a bit unclear as to the stage of transition from seeds and pellets to dark greens, carrots and some peas. And I'm also unclear as to whether you are adding calcium and magnesium via supplements or if you mean you've added foods rich in those nutrients.

As for the transition, it's important that you understand that you should never try a "hard transition" in the way that you have. I say this because parrots are not like some other animals. Some can even be stubborn enough to starve themselves to the point of death rather than making a hurried switch to a new type of food. I know you were only trying to do what is best for them, and that is commendable. But a 40 gram weight loss is alarming, especially over the course of 5 days, and an indicator that things are going terribly wrong.

Now, if I'm understanding your post correctly, it sounds as though the symptoms of toe-tapping and wing-flipping have decreased since switching over to the new diet. If so, it would appear that the symptoms were indeed due to the previous diet. But that said, if your ekkies still have not fully transitioned to their new diet you should supplement their new stuff with some of their old and make the change far more gradually. Even if this means a temporary resurgence of toe-tapping and wing-flipping.

It's better to be dealing with those symptoms for a bit than to risk starving your ekkie. You have to prioritize risks to health. Know what I mean?

Also, if you did mean that you are providing calcium and magnesium via supplements, I would highly advise doing so ONLY at the direction of a certified avian vet who has a proven knowledge of eclectus parrots. (Unfortunately, specialized knowledge of eclectus parrots is not as common as one might hope.) For the most part, all the necessary nutrition can be provided by a fresh and varied diet. Which leads to my next point.

From what you've posted, it sounds as though your ekkies could use a greater degree of variety in their diets. This is for two reasons. One, great variety is the only way to ensure a complete and well-balanced diet when feeding fresh foods. And two, adding a tastier selection of fruits to the otherwise comparatively bland (though vitally important) mix of dark greens and such encourages them to eat more.

Here is what I currently feed Maya and Jolly: (6-8 types per feeding) various sprouts (nutritional powerhouses!), carrots and pumpkin (rich in vitamin A!), bell peppers (red, yellow, orange and green), jalapeno peppers, Jamaican peppers, chili peppers, squash (butternut, green and yellow), blueberries and pomegranates (among the most nutritious of fruits!), snap peas, broccoli (rich in vitamin C!), cactus pears, starfruit, bananas, grapes, kale, turnips, radishes, brown rice, quinoa, cucumbers, endive, dandelion (another nutritional powerhouse!), sweet potato (cooked. And another rich source of vitamin A), red swiss chard, granny smith apples, papaya, African horned melon, hominy, oatmeal (sans sugar or flavoring), kiwi, barley, calendula flowers, fennel, star anise, chamomile flowers, milk thistle, elder berries, rose hips, hibiscus, bee pollen, chocho beans and garbanzo beans, as well as Volkman's Fancy Soak and Simmer for the majority of his legumes and grains.

Twice a month, I'll give some hard-boiled egg (with the crushed shell for calcium). Slightly more frequently during a molt. And an assortment of unsalted nuts, seeds or even millet spray for their treats. (Remember that seeds are not the devil. Lol! When fed at appropriate levels, they can be beneficial. I never feed more than maybe 1 and a half teaspoons of seeds in a day.)

At first when you make all of this stuff available, there will be a lot of waste. But keep at it. Consistency and variety will eventually win them over.

Oh! The issue with the OP's ekkie turned out to be a sensitivity to passionfruit, btw. But there are lots of different possible causes of toe-tapping and wing-flipping in ekkies aside from pellets or seeds. So just to make sure you are informed about other possibilities, here are 2 threads that can get you started:

http://www.parrotforums.com/eclectus/61598-how-long-before-toe-tapping-ends.html

http://www.parrotforums.com/eclectus/61889-okay-let-s-talk-abv-pdd-toe-tapping.html

Don't hesitate to come back with more questions if you have them!

 

[ortootto]

Thanks Anansi,

this is very useful info. I supposed of course that dumping the 'old' diet to a totally new one is a harsh measure, yet the symptoms were so tough I felt I must take drastic means immediately. The bird who is usually an energy bomb (nomen est omen the name is Turbo) became passive, mute and sat on one leg only (not because of being comfortable, but because of being annoyed by his shaking left leg). Even the smaller in size female started to go after the ill male successfully, not to mention that he seemed to consider chewing his own leg. Was really scary. He seemingly was annoyed by the shaking leg.

All time long I consulted our vet (the best one in the country) especially when it came to proper dosing of Ca and Mg. (supplements from the pharmacy)
After 2 days of this bland leafy green (+ carrots) diet I reinstated parts of the old diet just to give the birds a smoother transition. I measure their bodyweights almost daily ever since I have them.

By now the male has regained its active behaviour and the feathers of the female has also become shinier.

We have the birds for not more than 4 months time or less, so I admit we still are experiencing to find the proper balance in their nutrition. Beforehand we had an alexandrine for about 13 yrs and his nutrition was a different world (much easier).

I thought I have read lots on proper nutrition to the ekkies, but it was obviously insufficient.

By now as the male is more or less fine (will find out in hours as I get home), I am considering takin him to the vet for a blood test to get to know his figures.

Again, thanks for the precious advice!
Cheers

 

[BruceTheQuail]

I had our eckies in to our avian vet several weeks ago. This fellow is supposed to be one of the best in the business, and I've been to him with various exotics over the years though this was the first time I'd been there with our eckies. Just for interest, these were his views as far as I can recall them :
1. female eckies tend to find a nest and occupy it , so they dont get a lot of exercise and have a tendency to get overweight. Ours was quite overweight. He attributes the tendency because hollow logs are a premium so once one is found they dont move a lot;
2. he thinks that eckies have a far leaner diet than people tend to believe. His view is that if you wanted to live off the land in the areas you find eckies, you'd starve in a flash. In Australia they tend to live is small areas of forest that border on scrub;
3. he has seen a number of eckies this year on pellet diets. Each one was vitamin deficient. Ours were quite vitamin deficient. He thinks that 99% of information about pellets relate to commercial chicken pellets, with the parrot pellets essentially being an experimentation from that;
4. his recommendation is a good quality diet budgie seed on alternate mornings with pellets the other mornings. Fruit and veggies/sprouts in the afternoon, sprinkled with soluvet. Or vice versa.

I've put the eckies on to that diet and they are really looking good, like better than I've seen them. The main thing for us is to keep them away from sunflower seeds (which we were using as a training prompt) because of the high fat content.

Signs of vitamin deficiency included that the boy's beak hadnt gone fully orange yet (still quite a bit of black), the scales on their feet would flake if rubbed, the little bumps on the bottom of their feet were flattened, and the cillia in their beak werent prominent. Also the colour wasnt going to the end of their chest feathers which made them look as though they had a dark edge.

 

[Keatz]

Hi, for the first year that I had my eclectus, he also suffered from extreme toe tapping. He exhibited all the symptoms you described. In really bad episodes, his leg would spring up and down and hit his perch, which made it impossible for him to sleep. Each episode usually lasted four or five nights. About eight months ago, I took him to my local vet. She suggested I take him off birdseed entirely, with the exception of sprouted seed, of which he gets about a tablespoon with his vegetables each day. She also suggested I feed him pellets. They make up about twenty percent of his diet. (I buy pellets that are specifically formulated for eclectus.) Since then, he has not had a major toe tapping incident again. He had one mild toe tapping incident, which occurred soon after I started feeding him quinoa. I don't know whether the quinoa was really responsible or not, but to be on the safe side, I stopped feeding it to him.
Hopefully you will discover your eclectus' trigger and the toe tapping will disappear.

 

[Anansi]

Hi, for the first year that I had my eclectus, he also suffered from extreme toe tapping. He exhibited all the symptoms you described. In really bad episodes, his leg would spring up and down and hit his perch, which made it impossible for him to sleep. Each episode usually lasted four or five nights. About eight months ago, I took him to my local vet. She suggested I take him off birdseed entirely, with the exception of sprouted seed, of which he gets about a tablespoon with his vegetables each day. She also suggested I feed him pellets. They make up about twenty percent of his diet. (I buy pellets that are specifically formulated for eclectus.) Since then, he has not had a major toe tapping incident again. He had one mild toe tapping incident, which occurred soon after I started feeding him quinoa. I don't know whether the quinoa was really responsible or not, but to be on the safe side, I stopped feeding it to him.
Hopefully you will discover your eclectus' trigger and the toe tapping will disappear.

The quinoa may well have been the cause, as some ekkies have exhibited a particular sensitivity to protein in their diets. I'm not saying that quinoa is bad, mind you. It's usually a wonderful part of an ekkie diet in the right portions... unless your ekkie has that specific sensitivity.

Could you post the exact brand of eclectus geared pellets that you use? I ask because my flock gets a complete diet via a varied selection of fresh foods, and as such I'm not really very familiar with any potentially eclectus friendly pellets that are out there. I know that pellets are usually somewhat demonized when it comes to ekkies, and in some cases for good reason, but I do understand that the ill-effects come from an overdose of the nutrients provided. As such, i try to keep an open mind to the possibility that a given pellet might actually be good for them if it has been formulated with their particular dietary needs in mind. And especially when used in the supplementary fashion (20%) that you've described.

 

[ortootto]

Hi All,
Now both birds are on a 60-70% mixed chopped veggies diet, once a day limited amount of fruits (figs, banana, apple, or whatever we can get), 2tblspoons of sprouted oilseeds and a little pinch of Silybum marianum.
We still havent gotten to the vet to have the full blood panel yet, but i suspice the cause may have been either vitamin A deficiency and/or sensitivity to corn.Huge challenge their diet is!
I do also have roudybush high breeder pellets but when the symptoms came this was the first thing we took out from the birds diet.
By now this seems less sensible.
Another thing is that the birds seem to be highly addicted to sugary fruits like banana for instance. I am aware that sugar/carbs should be limited. As soon as they get to know banana is present in the household, both start to scream and protest for it.The two would easily feed a whole banana, then they sustain peaceful attitude for hours.
The birds also mimicking each others voices and calls and the hen even started wing flippin as she realized that the male gets a bit more cuddling when we felt so awful about his TT/WF. In case of the hen WF turned out to be fake. She is truly a little gangster and the male always following her in whatever the activity is.
They are about 7 months old.

What thinks?

 

[Keatz]

Hi, for the first year that I had my eclectus, he also suffered from extreme toe tapping. He exhibited all the symptoms you described. In really bad episodes, his leg would spring up and down and hit his perch, which made it impossible for him to sleep. Each episode usually lasted four or five nights. About eight months ago, I took him to my local vet. She suggested I take him off birdseed entirely, with the exception of sprouted seed, of which he gets about a tablespoon with his vegetables each day. She also suggested I feed him pellets. They make up about twenty percent of his diet. (I buy pellets that are specifically formulated for eclectus.) Since then, he has not had a major toe tapping incident again. He had one mild toe tapping incident, which occurred soon after I started feeding him quinoa. I don't know whether the quinoa was really responsible or not, but to be on the safe side, I stopped feeding it to him.
Hopefully you will discover your eclectus' trigger and the toe tapping will disappear.

The quinoa may well have been the cause, as some ekkies have exhibited a particular sensitivity to protein in their diets. I'm not saying that quinoa is bad, mind you. It's usually a wonderful part of an ekkie diet in the right portions... unless your ekkie has that specific sensitivity.

Could you post the exact brand of eclectus geared pellets that you use? I ask because my flock gets a complete diet via a varied selection of fresh foods, and as such I'm not really very familiar with any potentially eclectus friendly pellets that are out there. I know that pellets are usually somewhat demonized when it comes to ekkies, and in some cases for good reason, but I do understand that the ill-effects come from an overdose of the nutrients provided. As such, i try to keep an open mind to the possibility that a given pellet might actually be good for them if it has been formulated with their particular dietary needs in mind. And especially when used in the supplementary fashion (20%) that you've described.

Hi. Of course, there's no way of telling whether the quinoa really caused Oscar's toe tapping since I merely established a causal relation between the two, but several days after I started feeding the quinoa to him, he started toe tapping. Since it was the only new food I had introduced to his diet, I eliminated it, and his toe tapping disappeared after about four nights. In this instance, it was just a mild toe tap that seemed to flair up when he became restful.
The pellets I feed him are Vetafarm Paradise Pellets. It claims to be formulated for eclectus. The pellets are manufactured here in Australia. I had read somewhere that Toronga Zoo in Sydney feed the same pellets to their eclectus. The bag suggests that the pellets can make up about eighty percent of the bird's diet, but I prefer to give Oscar a handful a day.
The reason why I feed Oscar pellets is that he is a fussy eater. He rejects orange coloured food, and I figure that the pellets will provide him with the nutritional requirements he's missing by not eating certain foods. (I did, however, recently purchase a gadget that turns vegetables into spaghetti and he seems to like carrot when it is spaghetti shaped.)
I am aware of the problems that people have written about with feeding pellets to eclectus, but several vets now have suggested feeding pellets to Oscar. He's been on them for about eight months now and has not exhibited any of the problems that people describe. In fact, it would seem the inverse: it was only after I removed bird seed from his diet and started feeding him pellets that I noticed an improvement in his general health.

 

[Teddscau]

What I've taken to doing when seeking out a new avian vet for my ekkies, aside from checking out their credentials, is to call and ask the vet a few questions specifically geared toward eclectus parrots. Helps to narrow the field quite a bit. (I took on this habit after wasting $125 on a visit with a vet who told me that I was slowly killing my EKKIE by feeding him fruits and veggies rather than Harrison's High Potency... which he happened to have on hand if I chose to arrange for a constant supply. Really?!?)

Wow. I would have given that guy a piece of my mind. Honestly, Harrison's High Potency!? Yeah, that sounds like an awesome thing to feed to ekkies. If I recall correctly, Harrison's recommends that High Potency for ekkies -_-. I don't even really understand the idea behind the High Potency. The website says to give it to parrots that are overweight, underweight, active, inactive, sick, healthy, and everything in between. How would extra fat and protein help with obesity? Eww, and they reccomend the HP for birds with liver and kidney disease. Yeah, that's possibly the worst advice anyone has ever given.

 

[Anansi]

Hi All,
Now both birds are on a 60-70% mixed chopped veggies diet, once a day limited amount of fruits (figs, banana, apple, or whatever we can get), 2tblspoons of sprouted oilseeds and a little pinch of Silybum marianum.

HUGE improvement over the original diet. I'm not familiar with either oilseeds or silybum marianum, however. Though figs are excellent foods for ekkies in the wild, as they are high energy foods and male ekkies can fly in excess of 40 miles in a day, they can be highly fattening for a more sedentary eclectus. Personally, I'd only give figs as a rare treat unless your ekkie is an active flier.

...Another thing is that the birds seem to be highly addicted to sugary fruits like banana for instance. I am aware that sugar/carbs should be limited. As soon as they get to know banana is present in the household, both start to scream and protest for it.The two would easily feed a whole banana, then they sustain peaceful attitude for hours.
The birds also mimicking each others voices and calls and the hen even started wing flippin as she realized that the male gets a bit more cuddling when we felt so awful about his TT/WF. In case of the hen WF turned out to be fake. She is truly a little gangster and the male always following her in whatever the activity is.
They are about 7 months old.

What thinks?

Yeah, a whole banana is waaaaaaaay too much sugary goodness for even 2 ekkies. Hahaha! I think you'll just have to get better at hiding bananas when you've got them. There's nothing wrong with feeding banana occasionally, but too much is definitely no good. Not to mention that if they're filling up on banana, they're not eating other stuff that might be more nutritious.

As for the wing-flipping mimicry, while ekkies certainly are smart enough, I wouldn't count on it having been an act. I think the best course is to proceed as though it was exactly what it appeared to be.

...The pellets I feed him are Vetafarm Paradise Pellets. It claims to be formulated for eclectus. The pellets are manufactured here in Australia. I had read somewhere that Toronga Zoo in Sydney feed the same pellets to their eclectus. The bag suggests that the pellets can make up about eighty percent of the bird's diet, but I prefer to give Oscar a handful a day.
The reason why I feed Oscar pellets is that he is a fussy eater. He rejects orange coloured food, and I figure that the pellets will provide him with the nutritional requirements he's missing by not eating certain foods. (I did, however, recently purchase a gadget that turns vegetables into spaghetti and he seems to like carrot when it is spaghetti shaped.)
I am aware of the problems that people have written about with feeding pellets to eclectus, but several vets now have suggested feeding pellets to Oscar. He's been on them for about eight months now and has not exhibited any of the problems that people describe. In fact, it would seem the inverse: it was only after I removed bird seed from his diet and started feeding him pellets that I noticed an improvement in his general health.

Wow. Orange is a rough color to pick for an aversion, given how many Vitamin A rich foods sport that color. (Like carrots, pumpkin and squash!) As for the negative perception of pellets, I do think a large number of the brands have earned that rep fair and square. But several members of this forum have given glowing testimonials about ekkie specific pellets that have apparently been working quite well for them. While I probably won't be trying it out with my own flock, I appreciate you posting the name of the brand so as to give our members possible options.

And I think it's great that you transitioned your ekkie off of a seed heavy diet. It's largely due to so many eclectus parrots having been fed a diet composed almost entirely of seeds that their life expectancy is listed around 30 years instead of the 60-70 that it should be. I think seeds are okay if kept to about 5% of the total diet.

What I've taken to doing when seeking out a new avian vet for my ekkies, aside from checking out their credentials, is to call and ask the vet a few questions specifically geared toward eclectus parrots. Helps to narrow the field quite a bit. (I took on this habit after wasting $125 on a visit with a vet who told me that I was slowly killing my EKKIE by feeding him fruits and veggies rather than Harrison's High Potency... which he happened to have on hand if I chose to arrange for a constant supply. Really?!?)

Wow. I would have given that guy a piece of my mind. Honestly, Harrison's High Potency!? Yeah, that sounds like an awesome thing to feed to ekkies. If I recall correctly, Harrison's recommends that High Potency for ekkies -_-. ...

Right? I respect Harrison's in general for parrots other than eclectus, but they are definitely no good as a total diet for ekkies. They are not designed for them. And high potency would be the worst to suggest, given that the issue is a food too rich in nutrients and such. But none of that matters when weighed against the chance to make an extra buck, eh? Smh.

 

[greytness]

decrease his protein intake. Cut out the nuts and corn, too. And Harrison's high performance is too much for ekkis. Should only be on the regular course.

 

[Keatz]

Wow. Orange is a rough color to pick for an aversion, given how many Vitamin A rich foods sport that color. (Like carrots, pumpkin and squash!) As for the negative perception of pellets, I do think a large number of the brands have earned that rep fair and square. But several members of this forum have given glowing testimonials about ekkie specific pellets that have apparently been working quite well for them. While I probably won't be trying it out with my own flock, I appreciate you posting the name of the brand so as to give our members possible options.

And I think it's great that you transitioned your ekkie off of a seed heavy diet. It's largely due to so many eclectus parrots having been fed a diet composed almost entirely of seeds that their life expectancy is listed around 30 years instead of the 60-70 that it should be. I think seeds are okay if kept to about 5% of the total diet.

It's very difficult to get Oscar to eat orange coloured food. Whether it's pumpkin, sweet potato, carrot or orange, and no matter how I prepare it (mashed, grated, etc), he rejects it.
Even though I only give Oscar a handful of pellets a day, some days he only eats a couple and other days, he eats more.

 

[Anansi]

Have you tried serving him up carrots or sweet potato in either oatmeal or birdy bread?

 

[Keatz]

Have you tried serving him up carrots or sweet potato in either oatmeal or birdy bread?

Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a try. Can I ask how you prepare the oatmeal?

 

[Anansi]

Have you tried serving him up carrots or sweet potato in either oatmeal or birdy bread?

Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a try. Can I ask how you prepare the oatmeal?

Use the regular flavored oats (not sweetened), add water and allow it to simmer while stirring until it starts to thicken. And then turn off the flame and grate/chop the carrots or sweet potato (and any other fruits or veggies you'd like to add) and mush it into the mix. Allow it to cool until it is only very warm and then serve.

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[Keatz]

Have you tried serving him up carrots or sweet potato in either oatmeal or birdy bread?

Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a try. Can I ask how you prepare the oatmeal?

Use the regular flavored oats (not sweetened), add water and allow it to simmer while stirring until it starts to thicken. And then turn off the flame and grate/chop the carrots or sweet potato (and any other fruits or veggies you'd like to add) and mush it into the mix. Allow it to cool until it is only very warm and then serve.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Thank you very much for that. Much appreciated. I have some raw oats in the pantry and will give it a try.
I hate to bother you with incessant questions, but I have one more. I found some food for sale called "Eclectus Blend". But I'm a bit iffy about it and was wondering what you thought. It claims to provide "the higher Vit A levels" for eclectus. I don't like the sound of "higher" levels, even though Vitamin A is crucial to eclectus. Also, I'm not entirely convinced by the list of ingredients. For instance, it contains peanuts, which I once fed to Oscar, if only because the people I bought him from recommended them, and he had an allergic reaction. It also contains banana chips, but I've always been skeptical about banana chips because most of them are cooked in oil and are sugary. Anyway, I would appreciate your imput. Here's the full list of ingredients:

Wheat, Sunflower Seed, Safflower Seed, Coconut, Cracked Maize, Peanuts, Dehulled Oats, Flaked Corn, Banana, Rye & Barley Flakes, Pineapple, Green Peas, Rice Flakes, Pumpkin Seeds, Walnuts, Sundried Tomatoes, Rolled Oats, Red Bell Peppers, Papaya, Apple, Carrot, Apricots, Almonds, Sesame Seed, Sorgum, Currants, Pasta, Japanese & White French Millet, Soyabean Meal, Ground Corn, Ground Wheat, Molasses, Wheatgerm, Alfalfa Meal, Brewers Yeast, Quinoa, Egg White, Kelp, Beet Pulp, Chlorophyll, Vitamins, Herbs & Spices

 

[Anansi]

No worries. Feel free to ask any questions you'd like. I'm not thrilled about the "higher" levels of Vitamin A, either. Not to mention the presence of peanuts is a definite issue as well. Not only for ekkies, but for parrots in general. Peanuts in and of themselves aren't the problem so much as their susceptibility to contamination by fungal toxins. These toxins can lead to the dangerously stubborn respiratory infection known as aspergillosis.

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[Taw5106]

Just seeing this and jumping in. I have a very hormonal female Ekkie, a Green Cheek Amazon and a Congo African Gray. I feed them all fresh chop based on my Ekkie's needs, they all benefit. I do a base of brown rice and add a lot of dark greens for calcium like collard greens, okra, and spinach. A lot of bell peppers, all colors, carrots, peas, corn (treat), a lot of fruits, pomegranate is the Queen's favorite, but bottom line I make rice and have been chopping seasonal fruits and veggies to be their main stay with added rice as a carb. Treats are fruits, and nuts. Thankfully I haven't had toe and wing tapping yet!! I change up their veggies and fruits daily too.


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[Anansi]

Just seeing this and jumping in. I have a very hormonal female Ekkie, a Green Cheek Amazon and a Congo African Gray. I feed them all fresh chop based on my Ekkie's needs, they all benefit. I do a base of brown rice and add a lot of dark greens for calcium like collard greens, okra, and spinach. A lot of bell peppers, all colors, carrots, peas, corn (treat), a lot of fruits, pomegranate is the Queen's favorite, but bottom line I make rice and have been chopping seasonal fruits and veggies to be their main stay with added rice as a carb. Treats are fruits, and nuts. Thankfully I haven't had toe and wing tapping yet!! I change up their veggies and fruits daily too.


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I didn't know that Buzz and Buddy were also on the fresh foods only diet, too! Nice! Yeah, so many people view the whole "fresh only" as an ekkie thing, but in truth a properly varied fresh diet is excellent for any parrot. Your birds are a great example of this. So is April's (Kiwibird's) Kiwi.

One thing though, Trace. From what I've researched, spinach has properties that tend to block the body's ability to absorb calcium. (Not permanently, just for the duration of that meal or maybe that day?) For this reason, I tend to go with broccoli for the calcium, or the mainstay powerhouse, dandelion.