Help Alexandrian that don't leave the nest

[sokkary]

Hello every one this is my first post here and i'm looking for help

i've pair of alexandrine parrots they are not tamed, how ever male can accept to take food from hand when there is no nest attached to the cadge

the problem is that the male doesn't leave the nest at all only leave it for feeding and he female as well

its not that they prepare to breed the do this all time and on last march the female put tow eggs but they was not fertilized


i'm willing to breed them and get fertilized eggs can any one help, the cage is on inside breeding room where i've to other indian ring pair that breeds successful on the same room


please help,

 

[sokkary]

this is the cage fro any advise

 

[sokkary]

image of the cage for any advice might help

 

[noodles123]

May I ask how you acquired these birds and what your ultimate intentions are?


The cage is far too small for even 1 of them. Is this the daily cage? No matter your intentions, you must get a bigger cage (make sure it is non-toxic metal--aka, no copper, zinc, lead, or toxic paints over the metal + appropriate bar spacing).

They are bonded as a pair, so taming will be difficult but you can at least start building trust with your birds slowly. You are going to need to spend a LONG time building trust (I left the door of my cage open and allowed my bird to go in and out freely for months before she trusted me enough to step up). Also, you need to consider adding sources of stimulation (bird-safe chew blocks, shredding toys etc). DO NOT buy snuggle huts (they are dangerous). Always introduce a new toy slowly (birds get scared of new things), so leave the toys near cage for a few days and play with them near the bird (while the bird watches). Do they ever get out of their cage?

In terms of perches, you will want multiple perches in your new cage and you will want some of them to be a rough textures (BUT NOOOTTTTT sand-paper). Pummice is common and that works. Dowel perches wear the bird's food in the same places and can lead to bumble foot, so you will want a variety of size appropriate textures and shapes.

Water should be changed AT LEAST 1x daily (often more)
Food should contain pellets and seeds (not just seeds) + fresh fruit/veg (read up on bird safe veg/fruit, as they are not all safe for birds).

Make sure there is a source of calcium (cuttlebone or something) in the cage since they are a male/female pair.

Bonding--- start with taking time to just let the bird get to know you.
Try to get bird comfortable with eating food from hand after that.
Then, consider placing food on top of cage to encourage the bird to come out etc.
DO not try to physically contact your bird right away.
You need to upgrade living standards and start back at square one.

Breeding: If you are wanting these birds to breed, etc, then you need a much stronger knowledge of parrot health, behavior and care beforehand.
These birds are bound to be mentally unhealthy in such a small and stifling environment. Laying eggs can kill a bird if it isn't in proper health or lacks nutrition. Egg binding is very dangerous. The current conditions are not healthy or fair to your birds at all.
For perspective, imagine adopting 2 kids and placing them in a 6x8 foot room with bare walls and never allowing to leave. Birds are intended to fly miles a day....so for them to just sit in such a cramped space with no diversion is harmful. That having been said, knowledge is power, but with knowledge comes obligation. If you didn't know much about birds, then you have come to the right place. I hope that this information is helpful to you!

 

[Betrisher]

Hello sokkary!

You don't say where you live. I'm wondering whether you are in India or Pakistan? If that's the case, are you able to find supplies for pet birds in your area? I know it can be difficult in some places and also peoples ideas on what's necessary for the health of their birds can differ.

I've found that Alexandrines don't often do well in a cage the size of yours. They are very acrobatic flyers and need to be able to fly or hop from perch to perch. They also need to be able to stretch their wings to their fullest extent and exercise by flapping. I don't think your birds can do that in the cage you have.

If you can't find a much bigger cage, then yes it's a great idea to have your birds out of the cage during most of the day. That way, they can exercise to be healthy and happy. Alexandrines need a lot of vegetables and some fruit in their diet. Feed seeds if that's all you can get, but do try to add plenty of chopped vegetables as well. You can check in our dietary section to see which vegetables are safe and which are poisonous.

For now, do try and get a much, much bigger cage for your birds. That will make them a lot happier because they will feel safer in a cage that keeps people at a distance from them. My own cage is very big: it's two metres high, two metres wide and a metre deep. My birds can exercise themselves in there because I have many swings and ladders and ropes for them to play on. When I open the cage, my birds are happy to come out because they trust me.

So, work with your birds by giving some food (eg. a taste of fruit or a seed) and always moving slowly around them and speaking gently. It may take more time than you think, but if you keep doing this, your birds will eventually respond.

If you have any other questions, please ask them! We're happy to help!

Betrisher

 

[charmedbyekkie]

Hi Sokkary! Where on this big globe of a world are you located? I've seen similar setups where I live, so knowing roughly where you're located might help in contextualising the advice forum members can give you.

 

[Laurasea]

Yes, as stated by all above, they are in need of a much much much larger cage, with toys, you can make them yourself from cut out cardboard shapes, paper fringe, plastic toddler or baby toys, lots of do it yourself ideas on line for parrot toys. Your birds hide in the box because that they feel safe, being in such an exposed cage sitting on the floor is not natural to a parrot and leads to chronic stress, chronic stress also effects health and fertility... The parrots also need several different size in diameter perches from parrot safe wood, and wood or other natural parrot safe materials to chew on.. Welcome to the community, and thank you for being honest, sharing pictures, even if that subjects you to critics, we just want to help you up lift the care of your parrots to higher ethical standards.

 

[LordTriggs]

yeah I wonder why...

couldn't be that you have 2 parrots in a DOG CRATE that's too small for one let alone both of them that you've got on the floor where they're most scared. Don't breed these birds. You're not going to make money off them, they've most likely been dried up anyway unable to have any more young. People don't often sell pairs that are making viable offspring. You need to do a metric tonne of research on what caring for a parrot is actually like and you need to start getting some cash together to get them a massive cage, toys, good quality food, visit to a CERTIFIED AVIAN VET (not some back alley vet who will see birds. Someone who has gone through specific education to allow them to actually treat a bird)

how would you feel being stuck in a cell you can barely outstretch your arms in with a cell mate? That's what these guys are currently going through

 

[itzjbean]

This looks like a travel cage...think BIGGER! They need more space to be happy and thrive. With this setup they can barely stretch out their wings or get around. Before you start breeding and expecting eggs you need to think about the care you are giving them.

What is their diet? Are you willing to upgrade their cage to something much larger to accommodate their needs? Are you willing to do more research about proper care and ownership before breeding them? There could be many reasons why they are not laying fertile eggs, but a bigger cage and a well rounded diet (fresh fruits and veggies, pellets, a quality seed mix) is a good start and then we can help you once you've made some proper changes.

 

[Betrisher]

I'd just like to ask members to please be aware that not everyone lives in a place where large cages, avian vets and pelletted diets can be easily obtained. Whatever your feelings might be about the correct way to keep a parrot, please respect the human being who has come here and honestly asked for our wisdom.

The reality of sokkary's situation might be very different from yours and mine. As it stands, he wants to do his best by his birds. Perhaps a word of encouragement rather than censure?

Betrisher

 

[Laurasea]

I'd just like to ask members to please be aware that not everyone lives in a place where large cages, avian vets and pelletted diets can be easily obtained. Whatever your feelings might be about the correct way to keep a parrot, please respect the human being who has come here and honestly asked for our wisdom.

The reality of sokkary's situation might be very different from yours and mine. As it stands, he wants to do his best by his birds. Perhaps a word of encouragement rather than censure?

Betrisher

That is very well said! We Americans think we are doing great, but then ChristaNL from the Netherlands let's us know they have even higher standards , their cage size is larger ect. There is a variable standard of care even for humans , I am a single person living in a home, where I think the norm is extended family living in a home.

 

[charmedbyekkie]

I'd just like to ask members to please be aware that not everyone lives in a place where large cages, avian vets and pelletted diets can be easily obtained. Whatever your feelings might be about the correct way to keep a parrot, please respect the human being who has come here and honestly asked for our wisdom.

The reality of sokkary's situation might be very different from yours and mine. As it stands, he wants to do his best by his birds. Perhaps a word of encouragement rather than censure?

Betrisher

Can attested to difference in availability of options. I live in a country where ekkies and CAGs are kept in cages that are at most 30 inches tall, and 24 inches by 22 inches for wingspan. Finding a store that sells a cage any bigger is near impossible - you have to find a company that will export a bigger cage over to you (check how many of these bird cage websites allow international shipping - hardly any). And for me, I'm looking to get Cairo a Avian Adventures Hacienda Dometop Bird Cage - 48" X 34" X 70" - shipping alone will cost me a couple of hundred US dollars (not to mention how much that cage actually costs by itself). It's something that I'm justifying the cost for by selling my baby grand piano.

Then finding toys that are an appropriate size and safety level? I've given up trying to find things in this country. We're constantly buying toys from overseas - so not just the cost of the toy, but also the shipping and taxes (*cringe).

And my gosh, fresh chop ingredients are so tricky. Half of the Western lists of good parrot food, I can't find locally. And the food I can find, half are not mentioned in the Western lists (and some names haven't been translated), so I have no clue if they're safe. Cairo eats almost the same thing with little variation - maybe one veggie is different each round of chop. I feel bad about it, but I don't have much choice if I want Cairo and his sensitive tummy to be safe.

Then the whole vet situation - 0 certified avian vets. Of the two vets who are part of the Association of Avian Vets, only one does blood tests, but those blood tests don't show if they have any diseases. So we would have to arrange to ship the blood overseas for that kind of testing.

And I think most importantly for newcomers here - the culture. Everyone around you is telling you one thing. And this forum says another. Your local community brushes off concerns you learn from this forum. Who do you listen to? The people you know around you, or people who (largely due to cultural differences) appear more aggressive?

It's frustrating and confusing at times. I know where I stand since I'm quite used to grey areas, but not everyone is familiar with straddling two worlds.

 

[EllenD]

I'm confused as to what you want to have happen with them...Are you wanting to breed them, or are you wanting to tame them and have them be pets? Because if you're not wanting to breed them anymore and you want to start working with them on a daily basis to be pets, then the first thing you need to do is remove the nest-box, because as long as it's there, they are going to continue to mate, be hormonal, and there is no chance you will ever be able to tame them...

And as already mentioned, regardless of whether you want to keep them as breeders or you want to try to tame them and have them be pets, they absolutely cannot live in a cage that small!!! That's the size of a travel cage for them for very short trips, not to live in. And that's very likely the reason that they are laying infertile eggs, at least one of the reasons. Theses are medium parrots who fly dozens of miles a day naturally, so cramming them up in a tiny travel cage with nothing to do all day long is very unhealthy for them, both physically and psychologically...So please, either buy a cage 5 times larger than that one, at least, or get them out of there and let them live in your home, because you shouldn't have one Alex in there, let along two of them...And I'm not saying this to be mean, but to impress upon how bad this is for the health of your birds...

Again, if you are wanting to tame these two, the first thing is to get rid of the nest-box immediately, get them into a very large cage, and then it's going to take working with them separately (you can't work with them together in the same room, as they are a bonded pair and they will not pay attention to you if they can see each other), and working with them every single day...You may also want to separate them into their own, individual cages that are sitting side-by-side, if you can't get them to stop breeding, though I don't think that will be an issue if you are able to provide them with a cage large enough to properly house 2 Alex's...But it's going to have to be a very, very large cage...

Just for reference to show you what we are talking about, my Senegal Parrot, who is half the size of one of your Alex's, lives in a cage that is at least 5 or 6 times as large as that cage, by himself, as does my Green Cheek Conure, my Quaker Parrot, and my Cockatiel....And you have 2 Alex's in that cage...So it's that big of a deal.

 

[noodles123]

I'd just like to ask members to please be aware that not everyone lives in a place where large cages, avian vets and pelletted diets can be easily obtained. Whatever your feelings might be about the correct way to keep a parrot, please respect the human being who has come here and honestly asked for our wisdom.

The reality of sokkary's situation might be very different from yours and mine. As it stands, he wants to do his best by his birds. Perhaps a word of encouragement rather than censure?

Betrisher

It was my understanding that the question was about wanting to breed more birds (given the current resources, whatever those may be). I may be wrong, but after re-reading, it seemed to me that breeding was the goal. If larger cages are not an option, it seems unethical to bring more birds into the equation (If assuming the basic resources needed are unavailable due to location- which may or may not apply to the OP). I understand that not all people have access to CAVs and pumice perches etc, but a suitable cage size is essential. These are living creatures, so if the minimum housing and care requirements cannot be met, then ownership is illogical.

Sadly, people's good intentions mean little to parrots. They don't care about where you live or how much money you have. They want to fly and interact and keep busy.

I don't keep and breed seals or hippos because my bathroom and tiny tub are inappropriate environments for keeping either. That having been said, when compared to me, there are (arguably) people and organizations out there who could simulate a more suitable environment/ provide resources for these animals (zoos, private organizations etc). The point is, based on the resources I have, breeding seals or hippos is out of the question lol (even if other people are able to do so, I am not). It isn't personal...It is just the reality of my situation.

My point is, if tiny cages are the only option (which may or may not be true), then that is not a suitable situation for breeding more birds of that size (in any country--birds are birds--they don't understand when people can't access what they need to live a suitable life in captivity)..biology is biology.
After all, these creatures are designed to fly many miles daily, while foraging and living in flocks. Therefor, such an animal cannot (in good conscious) be contained within such a small space, especially when untamed/cage-bound....if the logistics make proper care impossible, then breeding is the wrong choice.

I am just trying to be honest and I hope this doesn't come off as snarky. Again, I think it is possible that the OP just needs a few pointers and that he/she can correct the situation. That having been said, if this is as good as it gets....then babies will only cause further space/health problems.


Here is a PDF from the Global Federation of Animal Sanctuaries which outlines minimum care standards, and while the website is based in AZ, they have sanctuaries all over the globe:

https://www.sanctuaryfederation.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Arboreal-Perching-BirdsJuly2013HA.pdf

 

[Betrisher]

It was my understanding that the question was about wanting to breed more birds (given the current resources, whatever those may be).

I think sokkary wants to breed his birds once he has made friends with them. Whether either of those things happens is still a moot point.

If larger cages are not an option, it seems unethical to bring more birds into the equation (assuming the basic resources needed are unavailable due to location). I understand that not all people have access to CAVs and pumice perches etc, but a suitable cage size is essential. These are living creatures, so if the minimum housing and care requirements cannot be met, then ownership is illogical.

I absolutely agree with you! However, in some countries what's 'ethical' and what's 'kind' are vastly different to the standards we have. There are still people in Australia who keep Sulphur Crested Cockatoos in a cage that's only 2' x 2' x 2'! Why? Because that's what everyone and his granny always did! Every second verandah in our street had a cocky in a cage that size when I was growing up. It's appalling, but that's the way it was and still is in some peoples' minds.

Have you not seen the photos of Alexandrines and Ringnecks for sale in Indian markets? They're crammed into tiny cages, shoulder-to-shoulder so they can barely move, let alone stretch their wings. They wait there for days or weeks until someone buys them and puts them into a cage like sokkary's. No matter what *we* think or believe is 'right', this is the way it *is* in some places.

I don't keep and breed seals or hippos because my bathroom and tiny tub are inappropriate environments for keeping either. Are there people and organizations in the world who have the proper environment/resources to keep them? Arguably.. (zoos and private institutions near large bodies of water), but based on the resources I have, breeding seals and hippos it is out of the question.

Exactly! And thanks to the excellent education you have received you know better than to subject an animal to perceived unkindness. I would remind you, though, that keeping birds in cages or rooms and depriving them of free flight with a flock and access to the outdoors is still arguably 'cruel'. 'Kindness' and 'ethics' are both concepts that differ widely between cultures. In the developed world, we have the luxury of treating animals as sentient beings. In other places, animals are treated like - well - like animals. Please remember that in some places, even the people have trouble finding space enough and food enough to live well.

My point is, if tiny cages are the only option (which may or may not be true), then that is not a suitable situation for breeding more birds of that size (in any country--birds are birds--they don't understand when people can't access what they need to live a suitable life in captivity). That is just reality of a bird's biological needs.

You're absolutely correct! In an ideal world, all of what you say is true! In the real world, if a person comes by a bird to bring a bit of companionship into his life, why *shouldn't* he keep it in the best way he can make shift to do? Every one of us keeps a bird imprisoned in a human home without access to a flock or ability to forage naturally or to fly on annual migratory paths. The best we can ever hope for is to approximate 'good' conditions. Some can manage that better than others, depending on what's available to them.

After all, these creatures are designed to fly many miles daily, while foraging and living in flocks. Therefor, such an animal cannot (in good conscious) be contained within such a small space...if the logistics make proper care impossible, then breeding is the wrong choice.

I absolutely agree with you! But I can also see another point of view which says 'These birds are freely available and I could have one to befriend and make a pet of. Why shouldn't I, when everyone else around me is doing the same?'

My intent is to educate. If appropriate ownership is impossible, encouraging breeding is not a good idea....

I know that and I agree wholeheartedly - only, *I'm* not the custodian of the owner's moral compass and neither are you. What he does with his own birds is completely up to him. And remember: the birds can't/won't breed if they're physically or psychologically unable to.

I am just trying to be honest and I hope this doesn't come off as snarky.

I'm afraid it does. You're *telling* the owner to do and buy things that he, quite possibly, cannot do or buy. If manzanita perches aren't in the shops, then how on earth is he supposed to buy one? What if there aren't any shops where he lives? Or what if the shops with bird supplies are a day's travel away?

Again, I think it is possible that the OP just needs a few pointers and that he/she can correct the situation. That having been said, if this is as good as it gets....then babies will only cause further space/health problems.

There haven't been any babies yet. Do you *really* think a pair of Alexes would even *dream* of breeding in a cage that size? They may mate, but I doubt they'd nest, given their minimum requirements for a nest-hollow. If they have a scrape of shredded material to call a 'nest' and they're clinging to it, then that's not surprising, considering how exposed they must feel in that cage. But pounding the guy to do better isn't going to help him change long-held beliefs.

My little Mum used to say 'you can often do more good with a teaspoon of honey than with a bottle of vinegar'. I think she was right!

 

[noodles123]

I never said anything about manzanita perches or any of that--- if you read my post originally, it wasn't nearly as harsh as others. The only reason I am "educated" is because people were honest with me and because I had access to materials that taught me what to do and what not to do. That is a favor for which I am grateful. Also, I spent much of my youth in West Bengal India in a very poor town outside of Kolkata, so....In my old town (Khardaha), people who had any animals were basically upper-middle-class, if not rich (people with dogs were even more privileged and rare, as dogs were viewed a spreaders of disease- due to the large number of feral dogs, but there were parrots as well). Hinduism and Islam both emphasize the importance of caring for animals.

I agree with what you said---I am not saying OP has malicious intents...I am glad they are asking and I am hoping it is for the right reasons (and not for some profit venture)

Yes, caging birds at all is entirely unnatural...that is why if it is done, it must be done to a bare minimum standard...It is crazy even with a huge cage, which is why something so small is not suitable for a bird who doesn't get out ever.

I didn't pour on the vinegar.. Again, the breeding thing is what upsets me most.

"But pounding the guy to do better isn't going to help him change long-held beliefs." Do you know him/her personally? Do we know these are long-held? Do we even know his/her country of origin?

 

[Betrisher]

I never said anything about manzanita perches or any of that--- if you read my post originally, it wasn't nearly as harsh as others. The only reason I am "educated" is because people were honest with me and because I had access to materials that taught me what to do and what not to do. That is a favor for which I am grateful. Also, I spent much of my youth in West Bengal India in a very poor town outside of Kolkata, so....

SInce you know how different standards can be worldwide, why do you expect 'a minimum standard' when there simply isn't one?

I agree with what you said---I am not saying OP has malicious intents...I am glad they are asking and I am hoping it is for the right reasons (and not for some profit venture)

Yes. But can you see that *all* the negative posts he received are not exactly welcoming or warm-and-fuzzy enough to help him change his viewpoint? I just answered yours because it was the last one at the time I was reading.

Yes, caging birds at all is entirely unnatural...that is why if it is done, it must be done to a bare minimum standard...It is crazy even with a huge cage, which is why something so small is not suitable for a bird who doesn't get out ever.

But who gets to set the 'minimum standard'? I have friends in parts of the world where that cage is perfectly acceptable. How are they supposed to know it's completely wrong?

I didn't pour on the vinegar.. Again, the breeding thing is what upsets me most.

Yeah. I'm sorry, but y'did. And the owner will breed or not breed no matter what *you say* is OK.

"But pounding the guy to do better isn't going to help him change long-held beliefs." Do you know him/her personally? Do we know these are long-held? Do we even know his/her country of origin?

No, of course I don't know him personally. But some aspects of his post hinted at where he comes from and made me feel bad that he was being descended upon by too many members saying too many negative things when he only honestly asked for help. If the guy lives in downtown New York, I doubt anyone would sell him that cage for two Alexes to inhabit.

If a group of people fronted up to you and baldly stated 'your cage is wrong, your birds' diet is wrong and for that matter your entire intentions are wrong' would *you* roll over and reply 'Oh! Of course you are correct! I am seventeen species of dolt and I will capitulate immediately to your superior way of thinking'? I don't think you would. You'd feel humiliated and hurt and you'd probably go away and not come back.

Telling people they're wrong in response to their very first post is not the best way to change their ideas, whether they're 'long-held' or not. Asking questions is probably the best way to change those birds' situation, but it might be that sokkary will never post again. I hope he does, though.

 

[noodles123]

I do get what you mean...
I think you are as stubborn as I am, and I appreciate your philosophical approach. The bottom line is that nature should determine the standards, and by that definition we are all guilty. That having been said, 10 feet is better than 10 inches, even if it isn't 10 miles.
Also- I only said his cage was wrong (+breeding unless cage was changed). The rest of my post was composed of suggestions.
OP never even said what he was feeding his bird, so I couldn't have accused him/her of providing the wrong diet.

 

[Betrisher]

Again, noodles123, I agree with you wholeheartedly! I am *exactly* as stubborn as you are!

I think we've managed to have a really productive discussion without shedding anyone's blood. Thank you for listening and being considerate. Let's all just hope that sokkary can come by a much bigger cage and give his birds a good life!

 

[noodles123]

yay- I agree- again haha--Is that why we both have cockatoos?!?! LOL!
And Sokkary, you are always welcome!