My First Parrot ! Female Vosmaeri Eclectus :-)

[OutlawedSpirit]

Clipping is a very personal choice, and not only can it vary from person to person, it can even vary between birds in a household.

Myself, I would never clip Tiki because being blind, I think having his flights add an extra balance measure makes him feel more secure. The chicken was clipped when I got her, so I'm waiting until her flights grow back in to decide whether to leave get flighted or not. Depending on how she acts, she may stay flighted, or I may clip her. If I think she puts herself at more risk being flighted, I will clip her, but of not, I won't.

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[Violet_Diva]

I'm glad you had such a good day with her, today! The most wonderful feeling, isn't it?

Let me just mention something else that often leads to bites. Not that anything I've read in your posts indicates that as a problem, but i'll say it just in case. Uncertainty is quite frequently the culprit. And this uncertainty can affect your bird in two different ways.

In one scenario, she might perceive uncertainty or fear in your body language. Remember that birds are far more adept at reading body language than we are. So if she sees that you seem a bit on edge, it automatically puts her on edge as well. Why? Because she lacks the context for your uneasiness. Another bird would see in her body language that she didn't intend to attack and, as such, would be very relaxed in his/her approach. So if she didn't have any intent to attack, seeing any nervous behavior on your part would automatically put her on edge. "What's your problem?"

Second scenario is a bit more direct. When she attempts to step up, she may reach out with her beak for a better grip. If you flinch or pull away, if even slightly, you're messing with her balance. And any person who feels like they're going to slip usually does what in that moment? Tightens their grip! Same thing happens with birds.

Again, not sure if that pertains to you or not, but thought I'd put it out there since there is a bit of a nippiness issue.

Now... to clip or not to clip. Well, I personally never clip. I think it's healthier for your bird in the long run, both physically and psychologically. And a bird should definitely never be clipped at Bella's age, as she is still fledging and developing flight skills is very important for a young bird's cognitive and emotional development.

On this forum, we maintain that whether or not to clip is a personal choice, and condemnation of one choice or the other is very much discouraged. So keep in mind that my stance on never clipping is my own personal opinion. But there is just such beauty in watching a bird in flight. They take so much obvious joy in it.

Anyhow, here is a great link to a video about fully flighted birds in the home: Myth-busting! Parrot Training - Indoor Free Flying - DUCK!! Pet Parrot Free flight Skills - YouTube

And here are links to threads with one of my own birds doing his flying thing:
http://www.parrotforums.com/eclectus/57168-you-get-out-what-you-put.html
http://www.parrotforums.com/eclectus/60496-jolly-maya-training-update-blooper-reel.html

I tried coconut oil on her veg supper like you suggested, she definitely ate more than usual, but she did favour the peas and sweetcorn still! Maybe I'll take the peas and sweetcorn out of the mix next time to see whats next in line in her food 'pecking order'... that's a terrible pun, I do apologise! Maybe she'll just squawk at the remaining veg... I'll let you know how it goes! I did find your comments about Bixbys and Jollys food disapproval very amusing. Im glad I'm not the only one getting in trouble for being a bad chef! May I ask, how often can I give Bella the oiled veg? I'm guessing it's not great to give all the time. I have ordered some 'natures harvest soak mix' and 'parrot dinner' (pulses) to soak, as I've found out that the breeder had also been feeding these. Initially when I got her she was eating everything I gave her, but now she's getting super picky, so she wont be getting the right balance of nutrition. So I'll keep trying new things and different combinations. Im sure I'll work out a good balance and routine if I just keep trying.

I found your comments about 'uncertainty' interesting. I had read that you must act 'confidently', but this flip-side explanation you give makes more sense to me. Maybe I was feeling uncertain in the early days, maybe that's why I got bitten so much! I'm pleased to say that I've never freaked out by pulling away or retracting from a bite with any kind of scary haste or shouting. I've been very accepting of her 'testing the perch' with her beak as I did expect an amount of this. Initially I thought it was best to let her fully express herself as I thought it would help me understand her better. I know one time early on when I tried to get her to step up and she lunged at me, it was probably just because she was enjoying being where she was and didn't want to move. So I guess it's up to me to get her to want to move, I can't believe how motivational treats are! I was wondering: Should treat rewards be given indefinitely for obedience and good behaviour or will verbal affirmation alone be sufficient enough at some point?

I very much enjoyed your videos. My partner was amazed with what you've managed to achieve. I think he's getting more excited about what might be achievable with Bella. I showed him the video of your son calling Jolly over, and I told him "that could be you one day if you put the work in!" I must say I found your videos inspiring. I've been trying to devise a plan to teach Bella colours and shapes. I figured if I got some plain wooden shapes I could request she "touch" a particular shape and then reward her when she does. Then later on it wouldn't be too difficult to introduce coloured ones and just keep rewarding when she's correct. I know I'm probably getting ahead of myself here, but I think it's important for me to plan things out before implementing them in order to avoid confusion, remain consistent and maximise learning potential. I feel like I'm trying to work out how to best work things out, like each learning step needs to be a bridge to another so that each thing learnt aids the understanding of the next thing. If I can teach her to "touch" with her beak, I might be able to teach her "take" where she holds something in her beak. If I can teach her "come here" then I should be able to teach "bring here" using the same vocal tone. It all seems so possible!

Another question: Do you think she could learn by example? Like, if I verbally request my partner 'does a trick', and she sees me giving him the pomegranate reward, would she be encouraged to copy? Now I've written that I feel a bit daft for asking, but it makes sense in my head! I don't know if I 'think parrot' enough, or if I just think I think parrot! <- I hope that makes sense!

I'm very looking forward to spending time with Bella and having fun interacting with her! I will be sure to share any progress or problems in the hope that you may be able to advise me based on your experience. Sorry for rambling on for so long! And thanks again for all your input so far, great stuff!

 

[Violet_Diva]

Nor do I clip, and as Stephen posted it is a deeply personal philosophical choice we respect within the forum. Accidents do happen, so I strive to be extraordinarily careful with windows and doors!

Thanks for the reply. My instict is telling me not to clip, but I guess I just need to keep focus on realising just what can be dangerous and how. And in general the answer is most things! I would never leave her unattended and out of her cage as I understand parrots to be quite like toddlers in that regard. I naturally like to look for the potential in things so I'm hoping that this will aid my ability to see potential harm in things too in order to avoid any accidents. I guess her behaviour over time will push me one way or the other, but I'm hoping we will be able to overcome any behavioural obstacles and avoid clipping.

 

[Violet_Diva]

Clipping is a very personal choice, and not only can it vary from person to person, it can even vary between birds in a household.

Myself, I would never clip Tiki because being blind, I think having his flights add an extra balance measure makes him feel more secure. The chicken was clipped when I got her, so I'm waiting until her flights grow back in to decide whether to leave get flighted or not. Depending on how she acts, she may stay flighted, or I may clip her. If I think she puts herself at more risk being flighted, I will clip her, but of not, I won't.

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Thank-you for your excellent explanation as to why you would or wouldn't clip your particular birds. I like your open-mindedness and the frankness you've expressed. I like that you will only decide based on the individual needs of the bird. I think I'm going to take this approach with my Bella. I guess it's a bit like doing a personal 'risk assessment' with pros and cons.

 

[Anansi]

I tried coconut oil on her veg supper like you suggested, she definitely ate more than usual, but she did favour the peas and sweetcorn still! Maybe I'll take the peas and sweetcorn out of the mix next time to see whats next in line in her food 'pecking order'... that's a terrible pun, I do apologise! Maybe she'll just squawk at the remaining veg... I'll let you know how it goes! I did find your comments about Bixbys and Jollys food disapproval very amusing. Im glad I'm not the only one getting in trouble for being a bad chef! May I ask, how often can I give Bella the oiled veg? I'm guessing it's not great to give all the time. I have ordered some 'natures harvest soak mix' and 'parrot dinner' (pulses) to soak, as I've found out that the breeder had also been feeding these. Initially when I got her she was eating everything I gave her, but now she's getting super picky, so she wont be getting the right balance of nutrition. So I'll keep trying new things and different combinations. Im sure I'll work out a good balance and routine if I just keep trying.

Hahaha! Puns are quite welcome, here! The trick, btw, with the favored foods is not to put so much of it that she can get herself somewhat full on those bits alone. Especially if the favored food isn't particularly nutritious. (Fortunately for you, pomegranates are quite nutritious. Sweetcorn? Not so much.) Cut them up into small enough pieces that everything is all mixed together. Variety helps in this regard. Here is a typical example of how I prep their food:

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As for how often coconut oil can be used, I personally use it for every evening meal. (I feed 2 main meals per day. One in the morning and one in the evening, with treats given during training sessions between.) Coconut oil is quite healthy for them. But all things in moderation. I only melt a little bit into their food. Maybe a fifth of a teaspoon per food bowl? Enough to whet their appetites without overdoing things.

I found your comments about 'uncertainty' interesting. I had read that you must act 'confidently', but this flip-side explanation you give makes more sense to me. Maybe I was feeling uncertain in the early days, maybe that's why I got bitten so much! I'm pleased to say that I've never freaked out by pulling away or retracting from a bite with any kind of scary haste or shouting. I've been very accepting of her 'testing the perch' with her beak as I did expect an amount of this. Initially I thought it was best to let her fully express herself as I thought it would help me understand her better. I know one time early on when I tried to get her to step up and she lunged at me, it was probably just because she was enjoying being where she was and didn't want to move. So I guess it's up to me to get her to want to move, I can't believe how motivational treats are! I was wondering: Should treat rewards be given indefinitely for obedience and good behaviour or will verbal affirmation alone be sufficient enough at some point?

Treat rewards don't need to be given indefinitely. Initially they have to be given every time so that they make the association between doing as you ask and tasty goodness. And the treats should always be given in tandem with enthusiastic praise. Eventually the praise will also be associated with treats. At that point you can reward with treats just often enough to maintain the association. For instance, Jolly's recall is now at 99% (that 1% is attributable to times when unfamiliar people are in the house and he's initially hesitant to fly past them to get to me). So I only reward for basic recall on a maintenance basis every once in a while, now that coming to me has become a reward in and of itself. (Hahaha! Just read that last bit over. How conceited does that sound? "Come to me and I shall reward thee with my very presence!" ROTFL! But y'all know what I mean.) This maintenance of association treating also applies to the "step up", "shake hands" and "go to perch" commands. I do, however, reward every time for the more complex skill sets like fetch, spin, dip or "color discernment" (Basically, color discernment is fetch taken to the next level. Now I place 2 rings of different colors in his treat cup and tell him which color ring I'd like him to fly over to me. That deserves a treat every time! I've got to get around to doing an updated video of that. Maybe today or tomorrow?)

I very much enjoyed your videos. My partner was amazed with what you've managed to achieve. I think he's getting more excited about what might be achievable with Bella. I showed him the video of your son calling Jolly over, and I told him "that could be you one day if you put the work in!" I must say I found your videos inspiring. I've been trying to devise a plan to teach Bella colours and shapes. I figured if I got some plain wooden shapes I could request she "touch" a particular shape and then reward her when she does. Then later on it wouldn't be too difficult to introduce coloured ones and just keep rewarding when she's correct. I know I'm probably getting ahead of myself here, but I think it's important for me to plan things out before implementing them in order to avoid confusion, remain consistent and maximise learning potential. I feel like I'm trying to work out how to best work things out, like each learning step needs to be a bridge to another so that each thing learnt aids the understanding of the next thing. If I can teach her to "touch" with her beak, I might be able to teach her "take" where she holds something in her beak. If I can teach her "come here" then I should be able to teach "bring here" using the same vocal tone. It all seems so possible!

Another question: Do you think she could learn by example? Like, if I verbally request my partner 'does a trick', and she sees me giving him the pomegranate reward, would she be encouraged to copy? Now I've written that I feel a bit daft for asking, but it makes sense in my head! I don't know if I 'think parrot' enough, or if I just think I think parrot! <- I hope that makes sense!

I'm very looking forward to spending time with Bella and having fun interacting with her! I will be sure to share any progress or problems in the hope that you may be able to advise me based on your experience. Sorry for rambling on for so long! And thanks again for all your input so far, great stuff!

You are so very welcome! It's my pleasure, especially since you are asking all the right questions.

I'm so glad that you and your husband found the videos inspiring. Eclectus parrots are such special birds and so very intelligent. And the thing is, once you awaken their love of learning new things that eagerness takes on a life all it's own! Jolly and Maya - and Bixby (eclectus) and Suzie (cockatiel) before them - inspire me with their intelligence and the continual revelation of their increasingly colorful personalities.

Training is not only about teaching them specific behaviors. It's also about bridging the gap in communication between you and your bird. They basically speak an entirely different language, based more on subtle yet complex body language than we are capable of ever fully perceiving. So when you manage to teach them a behavior, they get excited too! Because it's yet another way in which we can communicate with one another.

But I digress. The portion of your quote above, in purple? That line right there showed me that you will probably be a natural when it comes to training. Yes, whenever possible, one learning step should indeed be a bridge to another. For instance, when teaching Jolly and Maya to fetch, I began by simply giving them a colored ring and then holding my hand out beneath them and asking for it. They chewed and chewed away at the ring, but eventually they lost interest and dropped it. Incidentally right into my waiting hand. Once this happened, I praised enthusiastically and rewarded with a favored treat. After a few times the lightbulb went off and they understood that the goal was to drop the ring into my hand. Where was the bridge? Every time I gave them one of the rings, I would say the color of said ring twice. "Blue ring. Blue ring" Why? So they would passively learn the color while I'm teaching them something else entirely. Building the blocks for color discernment even as I'm teaching the basic concept of fetch.

And as for your question about whether birds can be taught by example, I would definitely say yes! Though I would amend that by saying it can make a great teaching aid. I wouldn't rely on it as the main weapon in my arsenal... though some birds can indeed learn solely via example. For instance, (and leaving out the ultimate example of voice mimicry) my dearly departed cockatiel, Suzie, learned to wave as he (yeah, Suzie turned out to be a boy! Lol!) said "Hello, baby!" But this behavior was definitely not due to any training by me! He'd simply picked it up watching us wave whenever we greeted him. Birds never cease to amaze me.

For a more famous example of this, look up Irene Pepperberg and her work with the famous African Grey, Alex. There are videos where she would do exactly as you asked, having a human assistant successfully perform an action the grey had done incorrectly, and then rewarding said human assistant. This served to both teach by example and inspire via competition. Amazing stuff!

See? You weren't daft for asking at all! Rather intuitive, actually.

 

[Teddscau]

All of my guys are fully flighted. My budgies live in an aviary in the basement that I designed with their safety in mind (special toxin-free paint, marmoleum floors, stainless steel hardware, no plywood, etc.). Although Noah can definitely get into trouble, I don't clip him. Sure, flying can get you into trouble, but it can also save your life. I just make sure the fan's off and all that before I take him out of his cage.

If Noah was bigger, I'd get him an aviator harness so we could go for walks/flies outside. Have you considered getting Bella an aviator harness once she's trained?

Has anyone tried mixing wheat germ into their parrots' food to get them to eat it? Wheat germ is an excellent source of B-complex vitamins, and the toasted wheat germ has a sweet, nutty taste to it that I assume most parrots would love.

 

[Violet_Diva]

Anansi
Thank-you sooooooo much for your reply. I really appreciate you taking the time to give such comprehensive and thorough responses to all my queries.
Thanks for the example photo of the feed. I usually dice everything too, but as she's being picky recently, I have tried to cut things in different ways to see if it generates more interest. The only reason I was apprehensive about the oil is that it just 'felt unhealthy' adding oil to food, but after looking into it a bit it does seem to be full of goodness and not as bad as I initially thought! So I think I will continue to use a little on her veg from now on.

I did laugh at the:
"Come to me and I shall reward thee with my very presence!"
I hope Bella will end up feeling like being with me is a reward. Im sure we'll get there!

Im glad you seem to think I'm on the right track with regards to my training approach, even with my very limited understanding of the parrot world thus far! And thanks for the breakdown of how you taught your guys to recognise & drop the rings. Again, this is just going to spur me on to try and do as much work with my Bella as she thinks is fun. Obviously I don't want to push her or have her doing things for hours on end! At the moment she seems to look forward to our little sessions (presumably because of her anticipation of the food rewards at this stage) but I hope that in time, she will have a feeling of accomplishment from doing things and will enjoy spending time with me.

Irene & Alex are amazing! It's so sad that he passed away. I can't believe how much he learnt to communicate! Though that's now set the bar quite high! I notice he recognised shapes by the number of sides which is an interesting approach.

A little bit off topic, but we used to have a stray cat called Ellie (also departed) that turned out to be a boy! So we called him L.E. which strangely ended up standing for 'Little Egg'. Im not quite sure why we decided to call a cat 'Little Egg' - but we did!

Had a bit of a disaster today. I went to write in my feed diary on my phone and it was GONE! I'd been using a draft email and just been editing it each day. I definitely didn't delete it, and I've tried searching, syncing, checked deleted folder - nothing. So I'm a bit gutted :-( I had every meal she had ever had since being with me logged. So now I'm feeling a bit disheartened. Also the same with my pigeon diary too! I never knew draft emails could just dissappear like that. Had I of known, I would have taken screen grabs or - heck - just written it with pen and paper! So I guess I'd better start again... *sigh*

Thought I'd better end on a positive note - So today I did the "come here" request and got her to fly from her perch to my arm a few times! So that's one more to add into the mix whilest were having our little sessions.

Thanks again for all your insight Anansi

 

[Violet_Diva]

All of my guys are fully flighted. My budgies live in an aviary in the basement that I designed with their safety in mind (special toxin-free paint, marmoleum floors, stainless steel hardware, no plywood, etc.). Although Noah can definitely get into trouble, I don't clip him. Sure, flying can get you into trouble, but it can also save your life. I just make sure the fan's off and all that before I take him out of his cage.

If Noah was bigger, I'd get him an aviator harness so we could go for walks/flies outside. Have you considered getting Bella an aviator harness once she's trained?

Has anyone tried mixing wheat germ into their parrots' food to get them to eat it? Wheat germ is an excellent source of B-complex vitamins, and the toasted wheat germ has a sweet, nutty taste to it that I assume most parrots would love.

Your basement aviary sounds great. I wish it was standard to have basements in England - We could really do with the additional space here!

I had thought about a harness. Then I read some threads about people taking months / years and still not being quite there yet! Which made me think it may not be a practical option. But since Bella has responded so well to training the past few days, I'm feeling more like it could be a viable option in the future.

I haven't tried wheat germ, but from what you say, it sounds like a potential winner. I too would be interested to know if anyone else has tried it. I might give it a go. Thanks

 

[Violet_Diva]

So todays training consisted of...

"Touch" - her touching my finger gently with her beak
"Step Up" - stepping up onto my arm / various perches
"Come Here"- flying to my arm / various perches
"Beak" - me touching her beak
"Toes" - me touching her toes

I still try to say "Poop" just before she goes (if I happen to catch her at the right time), or just after, followed by a "good girl" and treat

"Shower" when I spray her with water
"Look" when showing her something
"Yummy" when she's eating
"Beautiful" when she stretches her wings out

I got her to "Come Here" and fly over and land on my lap!
And from there I offered her an open palm of pomegranate arils and proceeded to gently pet her back / head whilest she ate ("Stroking" was introduced!) It would be amazing if one day she could verbally request things of me. But equally I won't be disappointed if she chooses not to speak - as long as we understand eachother!

I'm so happy that she didn't freak out. It's the first time I've been able to have this kind of contact with her. Im slowly gaining her trust day by day and hopefully strengthening our bond too!

Im really enjoying not being bitten!

 

[Anansi]

Sweet! Loving this post! You're doing a great job with her, setting up clear associations and definite rewards for desired behavior. You're not forcing interactions, but rather inviting them and rewarding her for doing as asked. Following this trend, she'll come to want exactly what you do. All the time your bond growing stronger.

Only two things I'd point out. The first is in regards to petting her back. You should be careful with this, as the back region and under the wings can be erogenous zones for birds. prolonged stroking in this area can give her the wrong idea and put her into a rather amorous state of mind. Granted, she's young yet for hormonal behavior. But it's just something you should train yourself to avoid. I'll usually allow myself to give maybe one such stroke before switching my petting attentions exclusively toward their heads, necks and chests.

Second thing is less urgent, as it's a matter of preference. But I usually say the word "poop" right as they release (try to be consistent, here. Pick before or after, but not both.) without any treats. If they poop in a desired place, or especially if they get off of me in order to avoid pooping on me, I praise them enthusiastically for the behavior... but still no treats. Why? Because I don't want them holding their poop in the hopes of dropping a fresh one in front of me for a treat. Know what I mean?

Now, this doesn't happen in every case. I'm sure lots of people do it that way without issue. But it could happen, so I choose not to risk it.

 

[Violet_Diva]

Just to clarify, the contact with her back was minimal. I tried to use the technique I use on feral cats, where (once I've gained some proximity trust with them) I make contact with the back of their neck and either stroke down their back gently or, as they try to evade the contact they will subsequently get a full body stroke down their back from their own attempt to move away (which feels nice). I don't chase them or anything. I remain still and wait until they come near again and repeat the single stroke technique until they realise I'm not chasing or attacking or hurting them and eventually they start coming to me to be stroked. So the single stroke is what I went for initially. But as she seemed to have little reaction to the contact I moved my attention to try her neck and then her head. Is the back of the neck a safe place to touch? Or is that a sensitive place too? I don't want to confuse the poor girl, but like you said she is still only a baby really. So hopefully I won't be having to deal with any hormonal issues just yet!

Thank-you so much for pointing out about the "Poop" thing. In all honesty I'm a bit annoyed with myself for not thinking / realising the potential risk there! Im very grateful you brought that to my attention. I will definitely be giving just verbal praise from now on for that one, and will be super consistent with my timing too! Many thanks

 

[Anansi]

You're welcome!

And no, the back of the neck should be fine. The entire neck back and front, actually. For the most part, the trouble areas are the back, under the wings, and the vent area.

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[Violet_Diva]

Bella is definitely much more confident and comfortable and happy and is generally more outgoing and playful as time goes on. I'm getting to learn her many noises and what they mean and she is becoming a wonderful friend. I truly believe that she now looks forward to seeing me as much as I look forward to seeing her. She let's me stroke her head now, but if she's not keen she opens her beak at me to tell me to stop. She's pretty good at following my hand signals and verbal requests when treats are involved

She has acquired more toys for her cage (all of which I have modified as there always seems to be parts that I can see potential for danger in!) I can spend ages just enjoying her antics.

She gives me something wonderful to look forward to every day. Getting Bella has definitely changed my life for the better. The extra level of care required for looking after her has given me more of a sense of purpose and I find myself always busy planning things to do and things to buy to (hopefully) enrich her life as much as she has enriched mine

 

[Anansi]

Loving this update on Bella!

Hmmm... but what is an update without pictures? Cough-cough! Hint-hint!

 

[Violet_Diva]

Bit more progress today, she let me touch her wings without any protest! I figure, if I just keep physical contact fairly minimal (by this I mean don't push her for prolonged periods) but frequent (daily) she will warm up to handling more.

There's definitely much more mutual trust going on! I had her on my lap on my dressing gown for quite a while today. She usually gets restless and ends up flying over to her tree stand after a couple of mins. So I'm quite optimistic about her having many more prolonged snuggles in future!


Sitting like a little chicken...


Noticing me admiring her...


Asking for a treat...


Demanding a treat...


Confirming her cuteness!

 

[Anansi]

Hahahaha! Love these pics! She's such a cutie!

"Asking for a treat... Demanding a treat" Hilarity!

 

[itchyfeet]

oOoh my goodness! I've never noticed the yellow on their tails before! It looks like she's been resting on a wee tin of paint - gorgeous!

 

[Violet_Diva]

Hahahaha! Love these pics! She's such a cutie!

"Asking for a treat... Demanding a treat" Hilarity!

I've been trying to snap a few pics to share for a while, but she has a tendency to be a blur rather than the typical photogenic frozen perch potato I keep reading about.

 

[Violet_Diva]

oOoh my goodness! I've never noticed the yellow on their tails before! It looks like she's been resting on a wee tin of paint - gorgeous!

In terms of commonly kept Eclectus, the Vosmaeri subspecies of Eclectus is the only one that has the wide yellow tail band and yellow vent feathers. The more common Red Sided and Solomon Island don't have the striking yellow dipped tips.

 

[Violet_Diva]

Micro-update:

She let's me touch her wings if her mouth is full of sprouted seeds!

Her harness is in the post, winging it's way to us (couldn't resist)

So her harness training is beginning next week, I wonder how difficult it's going to be... well, there's only one way to find out!