Needs input on how long it takes to full recovery after antibiotic treatment

[Birds lover from Hawaii]

Aloha fellow members! I am a new member from Hawaii. I joined this forum hoping some of you may have similar experience dealing with a bacteria infection affected a senior bird.

We (my husband and I) owns a 27 year old Senegal parrot called BB since 1994. BB have always been healthy, active and never needed to be seen by a vet in the past 27 year.

On August 9, he was diagnosed with bacteria infection in the crop after a gram stain test. Antibiotics (Cipro 20 mg) was prescribed for 10 days. He has more appetite and more energy but regurgitation movements (stretching neck to swallow food down) continued but less frequent and no weight gain.

On August 23, another gram stain performed and we were told result was "Almost Normal" which we did not ask what it actually means. We asked our vet why the regurgitation movements have not completely stopped. He did not provide a clear answer but emphasized a balanced nutritional diet is very important. He advised us just to feed him mainly Harrison's pellets without any other choices not even apples as birds like humans always prefer to eat junk food. We thought maybe he does not want us to feed him any sugary food in case of a relapse. It was tough to talk to a vet outside the clinic while the rain started to pour. We listened to his advice but there were no further improvements and his condition worsened.

On September 29, we took BB to another vet for an emergency visit as he was so weak, couldn't eat or drink and kept his balance. His previous medical result was forwarded to the new vet. The gram stain result shown large quantities of gram negative bacteria. He recommended to do a culture test and we agreed. Meanwhile he has given us the same antibiotics (Cipro) but at 50 mg twice a day and given BB the first dose. We were surprised to see BB can immediately eat as soon as we reached home and got better and better throughout the day. We can see improvements to his appetite and energy level but still no weight gain and regurgitation movements continued but less frequent.

On Oct 1, vet told us the culture result came back that Klebsiella is the bacteria which is one of the worst kind for both human and birds. He also said Cipro is the right one to use and told us to continue to monitor BB. A followup visit scheduled on Oct 8.

On Oct 5, we panicked as BB condition seemed worsened (congested, dull not able to eat) and felt we couldn't risk till Oct 8. We made an emergency visit and a gram stain test was performed again. To our surprise (we think the vet looked surprise too), result shown no Gram Negative Bacteria seen, all clear! He told us to stop giving Cipro and keep the original appointment (2 days later) for a recheck just to be safe. He has also given us another antibiotic called Sulfatrim for emergency use. To our surprise, BB condition suddenly improved when reached home and was able to eat and improved throughout the day.

Oct 6 - Considered a good day, regurgitating movements continued but less frequent sometimes just swallowing movements can be seen.

Oct 7 - Not so good but not as bad as Oct 5, not eating much, regurgitating swallowing movements more frequent.

Oct 8 - A good day again same as Oct 6. We asked our vet why one day good one day bad. He told us it's probably due to BB undergoing a Convalescence period after getting off the antibiotics. That is a recovery period from very sick to normal health. It's quite normal for the ups and downs in the first few days but duration vary by individuals. He did another gram stain (poor BB) just to be sure and the result came out same no more bad bacteria, only good flora exists. This is probably due to the Avian Probiotics we have been feeding him during treatment.

Oct 9 - Today is same as Oct 7 but slightly better, can eat a little more and but tired and sleepy. Regurgitating swallowing movements continued and woke him up several times due to that.

Our vet said we just have to be patient to wait for BB to get over this curb which may take time. It appears that there are nothing more we can do besides wait patiently.

We just don't understand why he still need to have those regurgitating swallowing movements after all the bacteria is clear.

Appreciate your thoughts and feed backs if you have ever come across similar situations. Much thanks!

 

[Skarila]

Aloha fellow members! I am a new member from Hawaii. I joined this forum hoping some of you may have similar experience dealing with a bacteria infection affected a senior bird.

We (my husband and I) owns a 27 year old Senegal parrot called BB since 1994. BB have always been healthy, active and never needed to be seen by a vet in the past 27 year.

On August 9, he was diagnosed with bacteria infection in the crop after a gram stain test. Antibiotics (Cipro 20 mg) was prescribed for 10 days. He has more appetite and more energy but regurgitation movements (stretching neck to swallow food down) continued but less frequent and no weight gain.

On August 23, another gram stain performed and we were told result was "Almost Normal" which we did not ask what it actually means. We asked our vet why the regurgitation movements have not completely stopped. He did not provide a clear answer but emphasized a balanced nutritional diet is very important. He advised us just to feed him mainly Harrison's pellets without any other choices not even apples as birds like humans always prefer to eat junk food. We thought maybe he does not want us to feed him any sugary food in case of a relapse. It was tough to talk to a vet outside the clinic while the rain started to pour. We listened to his advice but there were no further improvements and his condition worsened.

On September 29, we took BB to another vet for an emergency visit as he was so weak, couldn't eat or drink and kept his balance. His previous medical result was forwarded to the new vet. The gram stain result shown large quantities of gram negative bacteria. He recommended to do a culture test and we agreed. Meanwhile he has given us the same antibiotics (Cipro) but at 50 mg twice a day and given BB the first dose. We were surprised to see BB can immediately eat as soon as we reached home and got better and better throughout the day. We can see improvements to his appetite and energy level but still no weight gain and regurgitation movements continued but less frequent.

On Oct 1, vet told us the culture result came back that Klebsiella is the bacteria which is one of the worst kind for both human and birds. He also said Cipro is the right one to use and told us to continue to monitor BB. A followup visit scheduled on Oct 8.

On Oct 5, we panicked as BB condition seemed worsened (congested, dull not able to eat) and felt we couldn't risk till Oct 8. We made an emergency visit and a gram stain test was performed again. To our surprise (we think the vet looked surprise too), result shown no Gram Negative Bacteria seen, all clear! He told us to stop giving Cipro and keep the original appointment (2 days later) for a recheck just to be safe. He has also given us another antibiotic called Sulfatrim for emergency use. To our surprise, BB condition suddenly improved when reached home and was able to eat and improved throughout the day.

Oct 6 - Considered a good day, regurgitating movements continued but less frequent sometimes just swallowing movements can be seen.

Oct 7 - Not so good but not as bad as Oct 5, not eating much, regurgitating swallowing movements more frequent.

Oct 8 - A good day again same as Oct 6. We asked our vet why one day good one day bad. He told us it's probably due to BB undergoing a Convalescence period after getting off the antibiotics. That is a recovery period from very sick to normal health. It's quite normal for the ups and downs in the first few days but duration vary by individuals. He did another gram stain (poor BB) just to be sure and the result came out same no more bad bacteria, only good flora exists. This is probably due to the Avian Probiotics we have been feeding him during treatment.

Oct 9 - Today is same as Oct 7 but slightly better, can eat a little more and but tired and sleepy. Regurgitating swallowing movements continued and woke him up several times due to that.

Our vet said we just have to be patient to wait for BB to get over this curb which may take time. It appears that there are nothing more we can do besides wait patiently.

We just don't understand why he still need to have those regurgitating swallowing movements after all the bacteria is clear.

Appreciate your thoughts and feed backs if you have ever come across similar situations. Much thanks!

I am so sorry to hear that BB is ill!!! I really hope he has a speedy recovery soon!!

My question here would be from what was the culture done, the crop directly or from the dropping (stool)?

The stool one can be a false negative, especially after a treatment. I truly hope in your case BB is truly bacteria free.

As someone who ended up in a hospital many many times due to food poisoning, i wouldn't be surprised he just needs recovery time, keep on those probiotics if needed and good diet.

Interesting the vet mentioned low sugar/starch diet, that also goes for yeast infections. Ask the vet how possible is it that bacteria is gone, but due to low number of bacteria the yeast took over? Yeast in crop is also pretty common. This is just an idea what to ask.

 

[Birds lover from Hawaii]

Thanks Skarila!

The culture was done using the gram stain swap sample from the crop.

Both vets confirmed there is no yeast/fungi infection found as we are concerned about secondary infection as well.

First vet did not mention low sugar/starch diet but insisted we should force him to mainly eat the Harrison's pellets. We were just guessing why he said don't even feed apples as we thought bacteria/yeast feed on sugar so to avoid the bacteria to return better avoid those food for the time being.

Second vet told us that we should never abruptly force the bird esp a sick one to eat just pellets. BB condition is serious we should try to help him to gain weight asap and to feed him all kinds of healthy food and not just pellets. We really like this vet as he is approachable, exchanged emails back and forth many times promptly. He took the time to listen to all our concerns patiently and discussed with us his thoughts and recommendation for our baby. He is a good vet even though he is not a certified one.

 

[Skarila]

Thanks Skarila!

The culture was done using the gram stain swap sample from the crop.

Both vets confirmed there is no yeast/fungi infection found as we are concerned about secondary infection as well.

First vet did not mention low sugar/starch diet but insisted we should force him to mainly eat the Harrison's pellets. We were just guessing why he said don't even feed apples as we thought bacteria/yeast feed on sugar so to avoid the bacteria to return better avoid those food for the time being.

Second vet told us that we should never abruptly force the bird esp a sick one to eat just pellets. BB condition is serious we should try to help him to gain weight asap and to feed him all kinds of healthy food and not just pellets. We really like this vet as he is approachable, exchanged emails back and forth many times promptly. He took the time to listen to all our concerns patiently and discussed with us his thoughts and recommendation for our baby. He is a good vet even though he is not a certified one.

Oh good, shouldn't have doubted the vet's work.

The pure pellet diet baffles me, while Harrison's is one of the best pellets, I also do not see reason why not to feed veggies at least. Avoiding starchy/sugary veggies and fruits is good, to make sure you don't give a chance for the yeast to grow. Please ask if you're allowed to use Apple cider vinegar in the bird's water - just ask first, don't offer it before the vet confirms.

Harrison's high potency should help in this case to build up some weight. I would give some fresh veggies for sure, when our foster budgie had Macrorhabdus bacteria/yeast (it's... complicated) it was a nightmare to make him eat anything else than millet, and he should've eaten at least some greens, according to our vet.

I'd offer at least some greens, I simply cannot imagine sennies being on pure pellet diet... We also have a 10 y.o. Senegal, she'd make such a drama if she doesn't get her cooked seed/leguminose mix and her veggies and fruits daily.... Heck, even my conure gets pissy if he doesn't get his pepper.

 

[SailBoat]

The Probiotics can be an issue as a group they are not industry standards and as a result, some are great and others are junk.

Sugar and salt are two items that should be minimized in a companion Parrots Diet.

Neck Stretching is a process that birds use to adjust or reposition things in their crop. It is common for individuals to call it regurgitation movement.

A balanced Fresh food diet is very important and Veggies being a size about part of that diet is very important.

 

[Littleredbeak]

I have a est 25 year old OWA and I gave her organic grass fed kefirr for good bacteria when she was on antibiotics for an upper respiratory infection. If your bird has good flora I stick to what you are doing. I glad you found a great vet. In the weight gain department I have always given them whatever they will eat. If you offer the healthiest food and your parrot isn't eating it then it's worthlesss. I also feed harrisonss high potency and my love birds love it!( none of the birg birds do) I did some research because my one love bird started regurgitating his foor and it was because his diet was too protein enriched so now he gets a little bit instead of the all you can eat option.

 

[Birds lover from Hawaii]

The Probiotics can be an issue as a group they are not industry standards and as a result, some are great and others are junk.

Sugar and salt are two items that should be minimized in a companion Parrots Diet.

Neck Stretching is a process that birds use to adjust or reposition things in their crop. It is common for individuals to call it regurgitation movement.

A balanced Fresh food diet is very important and Veggies being a size about part of that diet is very important.

Thanks SailBoat! Agree with you on the Probiotics. There is a story on this front if you are interested to read:

1) I have done research online and have read a lot of comments on this forum.

2) Bought the Healthy Gut Avian Probiotics from Equa Holistics (https://equaholistics.com/) after the first vet said it's fine to use it even though it contains Corn Maltodextrin.

3) We asked second vet if it's a good idea to use Probiotics and he said yes and he suggested a brand called Proviable Forte by Nutramax. He had his technician shown us the package and there are 3 packs inside with 15 capsule in each. We bought one pack of 15 thinking this brand may be better than the one from Equa Holistics. Vet advised just to pinch a small hole let the power out and sprinkle on his food.

4) Checked out Proviable Forte later and shocked to find out it's made for dogs, cats and horses. Called the company and asked them if I can use it on pet birds and they said they have never done any study on birds. At that point we hesitate if we should use it and did not understand why our vet recommended this brand as mammals and avian are different.

5) Called Equa Holistics and spoken with the president of the company. She told me she is the one responsible for mixing the formula for all the products. She has patiently listened to my story and concerns and have reviewed the ingredients of the Proviable Forte. She told me there are some common ingredients between two products so it may not harm our bird, however, there are also some not too good ingredients (magnesium stearate, titanium dioxide, gum arabic, gelatin, fructooligosaccharide). She said as a daily supplement probably fine but not a good idea for a bird who is so sick.

I have also asked her that it is almost impossible to produce a Probiotics that could be 100% matched to birds in the wild fed by their own parents and different geographic location and species. She totally agreed and explained that the makeup of her formula is based upon domesticated birds gut flora even though it could never be 100% but it's targeted mainly for birds. If you look at their website, they have specific probiotics made for dogs, cats, horses, reptiles, poultry even for rabbits.

She also asked where I bought her product and I told her Amazon and she said should be quite fresh. She has even offered to send me a free bottle freshly made from her end.

6) Due to the above, we have decided to continue to use the Avian specific product.

7) Recent gram stain result confirmed there are good bacteria flora in his crop.

Neck Stretching is a process that birds use to adjust or reposition things in their crop. It is common for individuals to call it regurgitation movement.

Totally understand about the concept on regurgitation movements but excessive and frequent movements causing not able to consume enough food resulted in weight loss and sleep is the biggest concern now. We are not sure the slow recovery is due to aging, high dose of antibiotics, too much stress over vets visits and not to mention total 5 times of gram stain swap tests in two months.

I am interested to know if anyone have similar experience and how long usually the symptoms disappear during the recovering period. If so, did the ups and down happen to your birds too during the discovering period?

 

[Birds lover from Hawaii]

I have a est 25 year old OWA and I gave her organic grass fed kefirr for good bacteria when she was on antibiotics for an upper respiratory infection. If your bird has good flora I stick to what you are doing. I glad you found a great vet. In the weight gain department I have always given them whatever they will eat. If you offer the healthiest food and your parrot isn't eating it then it's worthlesss. I also feed harrisonss high potency and my love birds love it!( none of the birg birds do) I did some research because my one love bird started regurgitating his foor and it was because his diet was too protein enriched so now he gets a little bit instead of the all you can eat option.

Glad to get a response from someone who also has a senior bird. I have difficulties getting info from pet owners who have senior birds as old as mine.

Thanks for the great tip on the Harrison's High Potency pellet. i have never thought about that as from memory this is only for weaning and breeding birds; birds switching from seed and birds never have Harrison's before. BB have been on Harrison Life Time Coarse for past 27 years. Due to the regurgitation issues, he appears not able to eat or can eat only very little of the pellets. We have also bought the Harrison's Power Treat but these are all hard pellets and needs energy to eat. One good thing is as long as he can eat it, the pellets are easily dissolvable by his crop juice. We tested it out by soaking it in water.

Can't agree more that you said "In the weight gain department I have always given them whatever they will eat. If you offer the healthiest food and your parrot isn't eating it then it's worthlesss.

At this stage, we can only be grateful that he can eat and sleep comfortably and not waking up by the constant regurgitation movements.

 

[Birds lover from Hawaii]

Oh good, shouldn't have doubted the vet's work.

The pure pellet diet baffles me, while Harrison's is one of the best pellets, I also do not see reason why not to feed veggies at least. Avoiding starchy/sugary veggies and fruits is good, to make sure you don't give a chance for the yeast to grow. Please ask if you're allowed to use Apple cider vinegar in the bird's water - just ask first, don't offer it before the vet confirms.

Harrison's high potency should help in this case to build up some weight. I would give some fresh veggies for sure, when our foster budgie had Macrorhabdus bacteria/yeast (it's... complicated) it was a nightmare to make him eat anything else than millet, and he should've eaten at least some greens, according to our vet.

I'd offer at least some greens, I simply cannot imagine sennies being on pure pellet diet... We also have a 10 y.o. Senegal, she'd make such a drama if she doesn't get her cooked seed/leguminose mix and her veggies and fruits daily.... Heck, even my conure gets pissy if he doesn't get his pepper.

Thanks again Skarila for replying! Two persons suggested Harrison's High Potency that I have never thought of. I will rush to the first vet clinic to get one tomorrow.

Since both test results shown all clear, no yeast infection found. What is the purpose of adding apple cider vinegar to his water? We have noticed BB hasn't been drinking any water for a long time but his poops looks normal and not dry. We asked the vet and he said it's okay as long as he eats. Maybe he has drank some and we just didn't see it.

BB has been eating fresh snap peas, carrots and apples, almond, pecan and Harrison's pellets. The amounts of food he consume depends on the good or bad day episode.

We just wish the second vet is right and hope that the regurgitation movements getting less and less and the ups and down finally become better day by day and not fluctuating which is really hard to watch.

So did you foster budgie continue to have symptoms after treatments and slowly back to normal? If so, how long?

 

[Skarila]

Thanks again Skarila for replying! Two persons suggested Harrison's High Potency that I have never thought of. I will rush to the first vet clinic to get one tomorrow.

Since both test results shown all clear, no yeast infection found. What is the purpose of adding apple cider vinegar to his water? We have noticed BB hasn't been drinking any water for a long time but his poops looks normal and not dry. We asked the vet and he said it's okay as long as he eats. Maybe he has drank some and we just didn't see it.

BB has been eating fresh snap peas, carrots and apples, almond, pecan and Harrison's pellets. The amounts of food he consume depends on the good or bad day episode.

We just wish the second vet is right and hope that the regurgitation movements getting less and less and the ups and down finally become better day by day and not fluctuating which is really hard to watch.

So did you foster budgie continue to have symptoms after treatments and slowly back to normal? If so, how long?

ACV (apple cider vinegar) is often suggested when yeast infection is suspected, or when you want to keep the yeast infection away. Your vet said well that the bird should eat as well if it drinks. It's usually highly diluted - I honestly do not remember what was the ratio, hence I'd ask the vet for it.

Also thank you for giving such an extended explanation on the probiotics, you sure did your extended research!!

As for the poor budgie, he was already in a terrible state when we saved him from an awful home. He was on a very certain medicine which is successful against Macrorhabdus as this is not exactly a bacteria nor a yeast - it's evolution was stuck somewhere in between, which is why it is so hard to get rid of! We were administaring the medicine daily, I was so afraid he will die sooner of stress rather than the illness. From the illness he couldn't absorb almost any nutrients and he was always hungry, terribly underweight and his droppings were abnormal. After 4 weeks of the treatment and living hell for him, Sunny (the budgie) got much much better at week 6-7, and the tests have shown negative. It was quite of a hell for me too as I had to clean daaaily everything and desinfect as we also had our other budgie (who also got 2 weeks of treatment as a precaution), that thing is apparently highly infective. Sunny got some weight back, but not by a lot. Sadly he passed away just 3 months after the treatment, just 2 days after he joined a new beautiful and friendly flock.

Another weird thing I have seen recently by our other budgie is that she will regurgitate unwillingly when under whole lot of stress. Like, heavy molt, annoyed, weak. This happened only when she was at her lowest during the molt...

Sorry for the wall of text :x

 

[Birds lover from Hawaii]

Did you find out the reason of the passing?

 

[Laurasea]

It sounds like you have been doing a great job taking care of your sick baby . I hope full recovery happens soon.

I had 7 very sick burds with chlamydia. It took Months , and several relapses to have them recover.
My sickest Penny, very nearly died. It took all the medicine, supplemental warmth, and hand feeding baby burd formula 4 times a day for over two weeks, then probably a month more of one or two support feeding of baby burd formula as she started eating on her own.
My avian vet, said, as she was likely septic, had liver inflammation, ect... it takes a while to fully recover.

I also am a very big believer in feeding Greek yogurt with live cultures, one of which is acidophilus, every day when on antibiotics. Sbd i try fir twice a month fir all my burds. I would feed weekly but I hate yogurt, so I feed it when I get it. It is a safe food, and years ago many breeders added it to baby burd formula when Raising chick's. My avian vet said it would cause no harm, but thought it might nit really help. But now she is a believer as it helped mine with regurge. Before I had had the sick outbreak I have fed yogurt off abd on for years.
You will find pro and no information on web. But from my own personal experience, I strongly recommend giving it a try. Many people with chickens are also big believer.

I hope your burd recovery continues. Do track weight weekly

 

[Birds lover from Hawaii]

Thanks Laurasea! I have in fact read quite a lot of comments regarding probiotics including yours of course on this forum. The reason why I chose the Healthy Gut Avian Specific powder as we are very sure that our bird will not eat yogurt. As all of you know how picky and sensitive parrots are and BB is one of those really stubborn guys. He will walk away as soon as he sees or sense any food that he has never seen before and not even eat his familiar food f it is right next to the suspicious object. That's why I have to do such extensive research to find the right product. Just double check the powder we use does have Acidophilus. Since you mentioned it helps your birds with regurgitation, maybe we should try to give our bird a little more.

One thing to ask you is during the recovery period after treatment and confirmed all is clear, did you birds continue to have symptoms ie regurgitation for a long time and then slowly back to normal?

 

[Birds lover from Hawaii]

It sounds like you have been doing a great job taking care of your sick baby . I hope full recovery happens soon.

I had 7 very sick burds with chlamydia. It took Months , and several relapses to have them recover.
My sickest Penny, very nearly died. It took all the medicine, supplemental warmth, and hand feeding baby burd formula 4 times a day for over two weeks, then probably a month more of one or two support feeding of baby burd formula as she started eating on her own.
My avian vet, said, as she was likely septic, had liver inflammation, ect... it takes a while to fully recover.

I also am a very big believer in feeding Greek yogurt with live cultures, one of which is acidophilus, every day when on antibiotics. Sbd i try fir twice a month fir all my burds. I would feed weekly but I hate yogurt, so I feed it when I get it. It is a safe food, and years ago many breeders added it to baby burd formula when Raising chick's. My avian vet said it would cause no harm, but thought it might nit really help. But now she is a believer as it helped mine with regurge. Before I had had the sick outbreak I have fed yogurt off abd on for years.
You will find pro and no information on web. But from my own personal experience, I strongly recommend giving it a try. Many people with chickens are also big believer.

I hope your burd recovery continues. Do track weight weekly

Laurasea:

Two members mentioned about stress that made us wondering if his excessive regurgitation movements may be due to stress from multi vet visit; irritation from multi gram stain testing; medicated by syringe (throw up a couple of times); and the side effect of the strong dose of antibiotics that completely wiped out the bacteria in 6 days.

Vet mentioned to keep him warm using heat pad if condition worsen. We thought since we cover his cage at night and we are in Hawaii so it may not be needed as the internal temp is about 26 F. Now we noticed BB always likes to be near the area where the sunlight shines into the room. This prompted us that we may need to keep him warmer at night when he sleeps. We are going to buy a heat lamp to make him sleep better.

 

[Laurasea]

I'm not a fan of heat lamps. Be very careful. Radiant heat is better.
Yes all you mentioned, is going to keep things irritated, its a balance act to treat but nit over treat them

 

[Birds lover from Hawaii]

Thanks for all the good advice!