Old vs Modern techniques...

[RavensGryf]

Yes! It does make sense to me. Thanks Mark. From following other threads, I know there are people here who firmly believe ONLY in the other method (Heidenreich's as an example), but as was discussed before in this thread, these old school ways for certain birds DO give results and I know this, I just wanted to see some support since my other group chastized me for it and made me question the old tried and true.

As I went to try the 'other method only' this time around with Raven... target training, (passive) positive reinforcement - even after some time, we got nowhere with a bird who isn't big on food treats, and who's first priority was to prove to me that he will get his way no matter what.
I had to show him what I needed him to do and if I needed it done NOW because I have to leave the house for example, he doesn't get a choice (as I look at my watch) or bedtime, or whatever which needs to be done at a certain time and can't wait til he feels like it.

I have not had to towel him, but I do gently pry his foot up to step up. If we have time, then I ladder him, put him down and repeat. He will yell and complain, but he does GET IT. If he is not "doing anything important" such as eating, preening, sleeping, he will not step up most times because he is testing me. He looks at my finger then back up at me, looks at my finger then back at me again. Or he'll act like he wants to come out, then bite. I ignore his painful (yet still not full strength bites) and stare him in the eye with a firm no. With that, I will say "gentle... gentle" in a soft voice while having calm body language. He finally is GETTING BETTER about that and will many times tone down his bites and make them softer, since he is learning what "gentle" means, and that biting isn't getting him anywhere. Of course still had bad days though like all of us.
This is an exceptionally stubborn bird in my experience who will try to test me constantly (especially for a species not known to be this way) so thank you again to all who support the "old school" methods being appropriate for CERTAIN BIRDS. If the bird is NOT scared, and is being very headstrong and seeing just what he can get away with for the heck of it, I know that the "old school" ways do produce faster results. I've done it before, and it is not cruel. Of course then the positive reinforcement comes like Birdman said, just in a different way.

OF COURSE that being said - with a scared or timid bird, different methods are called for as to not cause the bird to become more fearful or untrusting. That should be common sense!

*It all depends on the bird* how we go about it, but there will ALWAYS be controversy on this topic!!!

I think it all boils down to "There's more than one way to skin a cat" ... not that I want to skin cats :52:

 

[Ambermai]

I am a 90% follower of the positive reinforcement theories. But my thing is always, if a bird is smart enough to say "step up" when I'm getting my other bird to step up, or to make a "kiss" sound when he sees me kiss my husband, he know that when I say "no" and "stop it" that he's being bad. In fact, the other day I did something I NEVER thought I'd do - I threw the cage cover over my smaller bird's cage when he was screaming his head off for me in another room (he'd been in the cage for literally all of 30 seconds when he started). And you know what? He stopped. I don't know whether it was the shock of having me do that or what, but it worked just that one time when my ears needed a break.

 

[MonicaMc]

Personally, I believe in positive reinforcement training. Birds don't have to be food motivated in order to train them using positive reinforcement training, but it can certainly help to start the process, and it is possible to try and create food motivation in a bird that doesn't appear to be food motivated at all.



[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22aAorUrwrI"]Stevie Bird the Umbrella Cockatoo with Lara Joseph - YouTube[/ame]




[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4DjiRJu5gQ"]Part 1 - Target Training B&G Macaw with Barbara Heidenreich at Rodies Feed & Pet Supply - YouTube[/ame]


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnlHAHKmP5c"]Part 2 - Target Training B&G Macaw with Barbara Heidenreich at Rodies Feed & Pet Supply - YouTube[/ame]




[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEPmNtrZkXg"]Part 1 - Syringe Training Scarlet Macaw with Barbara Heidenreich at Rodies Feed & Pet Supply - YouTube[/ame]


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdQNvJBvuVY"]Part 2 - Syringe Training Scarlet Macaw with Barbara Heidenreich at Rodies Feed & Pet Supply - YouTube[/ame]

 

[RavensGryf]

I know you do Monica... and I respect the methods and the idea behind positive reinforcement, and all the work that goes into it. I integrate some, and depends on the particular bird what I feel I should do. I admit I am still a fan of old school too. It has always produced quicker results for me, and in birds like Raven who are bonded to me, it hasn't hurt our bond.

I think it just boils down to different means to the same end

 

[MonicaMc]

There can be behavior differences between birds trained via the two different methods. With positive reinforcement training, and done correctly, you empower the bird to learn. You teach the bird what to do instead of what not to do.

Parrots who are taught through the old methods of flooding and negative reinforcement (i.e. introducing newspaper or a towel to force a parrot to obey) may get what is known as 'learned helplessness'. That is, regardless of the outcome the bird has no choice and simply 'gives up'. The bird hasn't learned what to do, rather they only learn what not to do and end up doing nothing. I do not agree that a parrot should be scared into doing something if there is no need for it. (stepping up, for example)



Parrots can live for 15-80+ years, so I think it's an unrealistic expectation of new owners to have their birds be tame and friendly within 1-3 weeks. Not to say that it can't happen, but there is no need to rush the bond!


I also believe that positive reinforcement, when done correctly, can produce results just as fast, if not faster than the old methods! And of course this may also depend on the birds and what motivates them. Nervous and/or frightened birds may require more time to settle in than birds who quickly warm up to new situations.

 

[Delfin]

The hard bit is to gain the experience to know what techniques to match to a particular bird without causing adverse effects. not really old or modern techniques. We, has Parrot people need to adapt and improvise so we can teach the up and coming parrot people and their parrots a better way to bond.

 

[Birdman666]

On some levels, you figure out what the bird responds to and do that...

One size does not fit all.

I am a results first kind of person. If it isn't working, try something else. Keep trying until you find something that works. ALL of these techniques are based on someone's theory and reasoning...

As long as there is no hitting, or starvation, or sensory deprivation, it's all useful.

So go with what works!

 

[RavensGryf]

Parrots who are taught through the old methods of flooding and negative reinforcement (i.e. introducing newspaper or a towel to force a parrot to obey) may get what is known as 'learned helplessness'. That is, regardless of the outcome the bird has no choice and simply 'gives up'. The bird hasn't learned what to do, rather they only learn what not to do and end up doing nothing. I do not agree that a parrot should be scared into doing something if there is no need for it.

I've never used a towel or anything extreme personally. Maybe the techniques I prefer would be called Old School "lite"... as I don't have that severe a situation. When Raven isn't doing anything "important" where he shouldn't be disturbed such as sleeping, eating, playing, he one day decided he just doesn't want to step up anymore. He looks at my finger looks at me, back to my finger, back at me, etc. I take my index finger and gently touch his toe, if no result and I know for a fact he's being obstinate, I'll gently pry up a foot and step him up. He is SO much better right now! My technique is also to talk to him about why I'd like him to step up, and point to where were going (point to his playstand with a sweeping 'out' of the cage motion with my finger and arm while telling him nicely where we're going, where favorite toys and treats are). That's a good reinforcement too. Now for a bird who is new and scared, then yes I'll adopt newer methods.

With the biting, it was never blood drawing, but hard enough to see if he could bully me. I believe I have this nipped in the bud (for now until hormones come at which time I'll just be careful with my flesh). I'd look him in the eye with a firm no. Didn't remove my finger, CALMED my body language and in a very relaxed soft voice hold my finger right near his beak and say "gentle, gentle...". "NO (if trying), gentle... gentle." "good boy!!" He's extremely smart. He "gets it". NOW he hasn't tried the biting like he was, he will sometimes do a noticeably much more gentle bite, OR mostly now, no bite at all but will complain, but no more beak. When he finally gets to his "reward" he sees he had nothing to worry about anyway lol. I do see your ideas Monica, I'm just among those who don't agree with it 100% of the time

As long as there is no hitting, or starvation, or sensory deprivation, it's all useful.

What?! No sensory deprivation? LOL!

 

[Birdman666]

What?! No sensory deprivation? LOL!

You might be unpleasantly surprised to learn how many people use the cage cover as a more or less permanent solution to the pesky bird noise problem...

Some get covered for days on end at the slightest peep...

And those are the ones that end up psychologically damaged.

We fostered a macaw that was kept alone in a STORAGE UNIT for 32 years!

is right! That bird had a wonderful personality, and they ruined him, because he was half-bonkers from sensory deprivation!

IDIOTS!

 

[RavensGryf]

Oh NO!!! Now that's heartbreaking! That's even hard to believe. A storage unit?!!!

Why don't the idiots just give their bird away or at least sell it when they realize they don't want them anymore?? Man. That's just unreal that people could do things that. Then again I could believe it. You unfortunately hear about people keeping and torturing other humans...

 

[Anansi]

32 years?!?!?!? Seriously? Unbelievable! Were you ever able to get him to an emotionally healthy place again, Mark? At least relatively?

And Julie, as for which techniques are best, I had something of an aha! moment a few months back. I was watching a number of different training videos from a variety of people. I was also doing tons of research. And everyone had something different to say, you know? So I kept wondering which technique I should adapt. Everyone seemed so certain of their methods. And so many were so certain that the others were wrong, despite their demonstrated successes.

Anyhow, one day I was talking to a friend of mine, and she was explaining why such and such was a bad parent because she employs methods A and B, when book X clearly states that....

And THAT'S when I had my aha! moment. Just as I started telling her that books are just a guideline, but that REAL parenting happens between the lines. No child is cookie cut. They're all wonderfully different! Why wouldn't it be the same with our fids?

So read the books. Do the homework. Research the techniques. Then, after careful consideration, take what works for you and your fid and toss the rest I say! ;-)

 

[Birdman666]

Not completely. He is one of only about two birds I was not successful with. And that bird really did have the biggest macaw personality of all the birds I've ever worked with. He was a large, smart, attention oriented dominant male macaw, with all the perks (and hazards) that come with that. (One of the reasons I always liked working with "the biters" is that a large percentage of the time, these were the really friggin' smart birds, that just had attitude, and weren't going to suffer fools gladly. This bird, and my Ruby were both amazingly smart!)

It's funny... he was the sweetest da##ed bird... BUT he was so over the top attention oriented that he would go bonkers, and become dangerous when you stopped paying attention to him.

That was the bird that accidentally took my finger down to the bone, when I turned to get him some fresh water. He just grabbed hold of my finger to keep me from leaving, but he didn't know his own strength... I very nearly lost the tip of that finger.

Then, when Sarah was playing with him, and it was time for dinner or homework, he actually got down on the floor and chased me, for making her stop... [Don't take my person away from me EVER!] I had to couch cushion him more than once. (And this was a large shamrock macaw.)

I was paying attention to my amazon one day, and she made a B-Line up the playstand. Picked up my amazon by the wing, and threw her across the room! (Then took over the playstand and started dancing for me, and doing his goofy attention games. NONE BUT ME!)

By the same token, take that bird out to the park, or where ever, and that bird showed off for everyone. Could not get enough attention! And if someone wasn't paying attention, she would be goofy until they were... JUST HUGE PERSONALITY BIRD...

But he was dangerous with people at times. Loving, but dangerous.

That bird ended up being permanently placed in an outdoor macaw flight at a rescue. There was a female shamrock macaw in that flight, and 32 other birds, so now he has a mate, and he has constant attention from others of his own kind. Within three weeks of being placed in the flight, he became the dominant male/flock leader of the flight.

It HURT to place him. We LOVED that bird! BUT it was absolutely the right thing to do, and it worked out best for everyone...

And oddly enough, after that experience, I decided not to foster anymore...

BUT THEY TALKED ME INTO JUST ONE MORE - WHICH ENDED UP BEING MY MAGGIE.... THE MOST LOVING AND BONDED GW MACAW YOU WILL EVER MEET... AND WE'VE BEEN INSEPARABLE FROM PRACTICALLY THE MOMENT SHE ARRIVED IN MY HOME.

I call that a happy ending for all concerned!

 

[Birdman666]

Oh NO!!! Now that's heartbreaking! That's even hard to believe. A storage unit?!!!

Why don't the idiots just give their bird away or at least sell it when they realize they don't want them anymore?? Man. That's just unreal that people could do things that. Then again I could believe it. You unfortunately hear about people keeping and torturing other humans...

He was a huge personality bird, and a large, dominant male. They didn't want to give him up, but they didn't want to deal with his $hit either. So they kept him in a storage unit, and interacted with him when it was convenient for them...

Life in solitary for 32 years. That is recognized by the geneva convention as a form of slow torture.

 

[JerseyWendy]

PERFECTLY stated, Stephen! :emoticonc

 

[Anansi]

Why thank you, daaaahling!

 

[MonicaMc]

I've never used a towel or anything extreme personally. Maybe the techniques I prefer would be called Old School "lite"... as I don't have that severe a situation. When Raven isn't doing anything "important" where he shouldn't be disturbed such as sleeping, eating, playing, he one day decided he just doesn't want to step up anymore. He looks at my finger looks at me, back to my finger, back at me, etc. I take my index finger and gently touch his toe, if no result and I know for a fact he's being obstinate, I'll gently pry up a foot and step him up. He is SO much better right now! My technique is also to talk to him about why I'd like him to step up, and point to where were going (point to his playstand with a sweeping 'out' of the cage motion with my finger and arm while telling him nicely where we're going, where favorite toys and treats are). That's a good reinforcement too. Now for a bird who is new and scared, then yes I'll adopt newer methods.

With the biting, it was never blood drawing, but hard enough to see if he could bully me. I believe I have this nipped in the bud (for now until hormones come at which time I'll just be careful with my flesh). I'd look him in the eye with a firm no. Didn't remove my finger, CALMED my body language and in a very relaxed soft voice hold my finger right near his beak and say "gentle, gentle...". "NO (if trying), gentle... gentle." "good boy!!" He's extremely smart. He "gets it". NOW he hasn't tried the biting like he was, he will sometimes do a noticeably much more gentle bite, OR mostly now, no bite at all but will complain, but no more beak. When he finally gets to his "reward" he sees he had nothing to worry about anyway lol. I do see your ideas Monica, I'm just among those who don't agree with it 100% of the time

I'm glad you don't use anything extreme! I really love a post that Lara Joseph did saying that behavior is always occurring.

If you teach a behavior, then grow lax in the rewards for said behavior (food, attention, treats, toys, praise - whatever it is!) or stop rewarding the behavior altogether, then the bird may grow lax in performing the behavior as requested. This can easily be seen in step up and a bird going from stepping up wonderfully to only stepping up occasionally or not at all. If the bird no longer finds it rewarding enough to step up, then why should he?

I think this is an issue that many owners may come across since it's so easy to continue requesting the bird to do a behavior but then not always hold up our end of the bargain and reward the bird for said behavior.



As far as biting, I really think it helps to know why the bird is biting in the first place. I find that many people inadvertently teach birds to bite because they aren't paying attention to the birds body language, force the bird into a position the bird is not comfortable with, which then leads to biting. If a person can understand why a behavior is happening, then it may give the person a new perspective, thus making it easier for them to have patience and connect with the bird.

I've come across quite a few people who say that their birds are aggressive or that their bird hates them because the birds bite. I've asked these people if the bird is aggressive or frightened and explained the differences between the two. It was like a light bulb clicked on and when these people realized that their bird was terrified and was biting out of fear, they were then able to go slower and work with the birds fear issues rather than working against them.




Honestly though, when working with a bird that bites, it doesn't necessarily matter to the trainer that uses positive reinforcement training why a bird bites! If they know what they are doing then they are not going to put the bird in a position that will result in a bite! It *does* matter to the owner though, when the owner doesn't know how to read bird body language and doesn't know when to back off.

Biting is an extreme form of communication. That is something that many people fail to see and understand.

 

[henpecked]

Wow,, I'm staying out of this one...

 

[henpecked]

Well,, that didn't work. The biggest difference I see, years ago folks who offered insight into parrot behavior ,where folks who'd studied parrots in the wild.now days it's phy majors who apply their learning to parrots.Not saying there's nothing to be learned, but there's a lot to be said for the old school. I'm old school, i've learned alot lately, and continue to learn everyday. My "roots" are from my experiences, it helps me to understand what i witness in companion parrots. As unpopular as it may be, breeding has taught me much. I'm not puzzled by many behaviors because i see the connection with natural instinct. it's like diet, variety is best, but don't write off the old school folks. BTW notice i don't consider myself any sort of behaviorist, i avoid that and offer "insight" instead.How you handle/understand is up to you and what works. The goal after all, is your relationship with your companion.

 

[RavensGryf]

If you teach a behavior, then grow lax in the rewards for said behavior (food, attention, treats, toys, praise - whatever it is!) or stop rewarding the behavior altogether, then the bird may grow lax in performing the behavior as requested. This can easily be seen in step up and a bird going from stepping up wonderfully to only stepping up occasionally or not at all. If the bird no longer finds it rewarding enough to step up, then why should he?

My other parrots (current and past and even a couple larger)- once they knew 'step up', it was automatic from then on. The one time when ever so occasionally Robin won't step up is when he's jealous of me spending time with Raven exclusively, then when I finally decide to come say hi to him, he'll run away as fast as he can lol! Few minutes later he's a lover again. I hear you though. Raven is a bit different in that he requests that I tell him the 'reason' I want him to step up first.


As far as biting, I really think it helps to know why the bird is biting in the first place.

Yes! I agree with you.

I've come across quite a few people who say that their birds are aggressive or that their bird hates them because the birds bite. I've asked these people if the bird is aggressive or frightened and explained the differences between the two. It was like a light bulb clicked on and when these people realized that their bird was terrified and was biting out of fear, they were then able to go slower and work with the birds fear issues rather than working against them

That way, when you step back to observe 'why' the parrot is trying to bite, you can see clearly how you need to go about dealing with it.

 

[RavensGryf]

Wow,, I'm staying out of this one...

Hahahahahahaha!!!