Old vs Modern techniques...

[MonicaMc]

Then it's great that he eagerly stepped up!


From what you say, it doesn't sound like you employed the hard core techniques and did take a softer approach. I do think that is preferable to using force or coercion.

 

[Delfin]

I'm a little late in replying about the cruelty inflicted on birds. has I read the stories, a tear in my eye and a lump in my throat formed. The extent of cruelty that people are capable of is beyond belief. I believe that has much has we want to payback the cruelty to these people. We are just lowering ourselves to their level. Instead they should be fined and jailed by the judicial system. But it would be hard to find a suitable punishment for 32 years of solitary confinement of a bird or kicking a crate around with a bird inside.

 

[RavensGryf]

Unfortunately the legal system here let alone anywhere in the world will never change to consider pets as any more than property.

 

[Birdman666]

I do think that techniques such as flooding and negative punishment do work, but not in the birds favor. In some birds, it may even result in a bird that "does nothing" because they are too afraid to do anything. Sure, they can be handled, you might even be able to pass them on to other people, but it's not by choice.


I'd rather see birds eager to do something because they know it'll mean good things happen rather than birds who are reluctant to do something because it's a bad experience for them.

Well, I don't see this as punishment...

The birds I was working with were in most cases so aggressive and so fearful that left to their own devices, they would rot in their cages and fight to the death anyone who tried to remove them from it. When you allow them to fester like that for long periods of time, the problem only grows worse...

Yes, toweling them and forcing them to come out is hard on them at first, but what happens is, once you get them over the hump, where they are no longer clinging to their little protected space, and they begin to experience life again - THEY DISCOVER THAT THEY ENJOY IT.

Waiting for them to "be ready" could take years. This gets them out the first day. Sitting out on a playstand away from the cage, getting interacted with.

Yeah, the first few weeks, they are panicking, and unsure, and snippy...

But once that little switch in their brain goes off... and they figure it out, then it's all golden from then on out.

KEEP IN MIND, MY RED LORED, WHO WAS GOING TO BE PUT TO SLEEP BECAUSE SHE WAS TOO FAR GONE, NOW LIVES OUTSIDE OF HER CAGE (FROM BEING CAGE BOUND AND REFUSING TO LEAVE) AND ACTIVELY "COURTS ME." If I damaged her psychy by forcing her out of the cage, and handling her with a towel, that wouldn't be the case. But she's been my shoulder bird for about 12 years now...

Sometimes, it's necessary.

Like when I did rehab and release with wild birds. You had to be deliberately cruel to them in the process at one point, so that they did not lose their fear of humans. To me, that was always the hardest part, but it was a very necessary one. You can't have wild owls and vultures and such just walking up to people in the park...

So, you try to hide your identity to some extent when working with them, and before they get let go, they are put through a series of things intended to spook them around humans.

It seems cruel, but it isn't necessarily so. Without that wild fear based instinct, they are sitting ducks.

 

[Birdman666]

I've actually never heard of, or done the flooding/muddling technique.

Sounds kinda dumb to me. It really does sound like something that is likely to backfire, big time. Push on a bird like that, he's liable to get annoyed, or if he's fearful, think he is being attacked, which triggers "bite mode."

I do put biters on the floor and make them sit there. And I do use the towel, and give the bird the choice between step up nice, and the towel.

I have toweled cage bound birds that wouldn't respond to "normal" methods, to get them out of the cage. (They get toweled for grooming anyway. It's something they have to get used to at some point.) I don't consider that cruel. It's sometimes necessary. Cruel-er is leaving a miserable bird to fester.

Positive reinforcement is always, always, always the preferred method. I agree with that. And basically, breaking down the behaviors into steps and teaching it to them with attention and food rewards has been my most successful methods in terms of behavior modification.

But aggressive dominance issue birds? What most folks consider "positive reinforcements" often only serve to reinforce the behaviors you are trying to train them out of. You only reinforce the GOOD behaviors. There has to be a clear boundary set, especially with large macaws. If you don't do that, the bird will not acknowledge any boundaries, and will fight you when you go to discipline him. Which leads to inconsistent behavior, and behavior problems.

Consistency is the key.

 

[JerseyWendy]

Just a gentle reminder to keep this civil, folks.

 

[Birdman666]

Just a gentle reminder to keep this civil, folks.

I was actually agreeing with her...

 

[Birdman666]

I do think that is preferable to using force or coercion.

Toweling is not a first step. That is a last resort, when the other techniques fail, or don't make progress within a reasonable (6-8 weeks) period of time.

Most birds don't need that.

So, in many ways we do agree.

 

[JerseyWendy]

I was actually agreeing with her...

My comment was directed to ALL contributing members. A thread such as this can easily get out of hand, especially when folks are dead set in their ways.

 

[Birdman666]

i was actually agreeing with her...

a thread such as this can easily get out of hand, especially when folks are dead set in their ways.

hey! You talkin' to me?! :d

 

[RavensGryf]

Thanks Wendy! I think we've all done such a great job at keeping this long thread civil despite all our different opinions... As the OP I've been thrilled about that!

 

[RavensGryf]

I've been reading this thread as it grew, but haven't posted til now...

This is the same topic that can be applied to every living creature.... birds, dogs, cats and especially human kids... What is best, the way we were raised or more modern approaches??? Well, as with everything in life, its all about compromise in my opinion. For this topic, there is no right or wrong... its not black or white, its a whole lot of gray. Much like my approach to dealing with health - its not all modern med or all holistic - its the two meshed together. I believe in modern medicine, but I also combine that with ancient approaches of the East and have had great results.

Something I haven't seen, or I missed, one major point in this debate - what type of bird... not just the individual bird, but what size bird? I would never worry about toweling a cockatiel or even the conures and we can ignore their bite (bad behavior). But with Ivory or Max, no way in heck can you ignore that. Ivory is a much more sensitive natured bird, so she does not challenge to be the dominant bird. But Max, oh yeah, big boy has issued that challenge about every day with one person or another. He's not mean or aggressive, he's an awesome bird, but he is a large male bird that if we ignored his 'bad behavior', we'd literally create a monster. Ivory responds to lots of positive reinforcement, but Max needs us to respond in the manner the flock dominant would respond to his challenge and in nature, that sure as heck is not ignoring it. He needs to be backed down from his challenge, much like the dominant male in his flock in nature would show he was bigger and badder, best to go off and mind your manners.

Comparing a bird to a toddler has always been a great example and just like a human toddler, you need to set boundaries, they need to know what is right and wrong. And they need to know that breaking the rules or misbehaving there are ramifications. Happens in flocks of birds every minute of everyday, if we follow the hierarchy that is effective in nature, then yes, the birds that share our home need to be told what they did was wrong, not ignore it and hope they do the right thing next time.

Reality... its easy to ignore a conure nipping at your finger for no reason; actually try that with a cockatoo or macaw and see how well it really works. No matter how much positive you give when they are sweethearts, if you don't address the challenge, they think its also right and you're gonna have one heck of a battle on your hands!

This thread has been very interesting to read and follow, thanks to Raven for another great topic!!

Thanks Jen, Raven said 'you're welcome' Yes it's been an interesting topic, and I absolutely agree -IMO also there is no black and white. Just like with children of different temperaments, you might be much more effective and MORE QUICKLY get results with some techniques over others.

I do believe in addressing the dominance challenge instead of ignoring it. There have been studies of wild birds that point to no one dominant, but there is always a hierarchy going on within a group ANY living creatures ...and in the wild they do not just go away and ignore each other.

The new school of training I believe, is based largely on basic principles of psychology in the human arena... which also works for animals, BUT in many instances as many of us agree, other techniques are very effective and needed in certain situations. Even for human children! That should say something.

Though some may not agree, I think that with a dominant bird who wants nothing more than to bite that target stick to splinters is going to take WAY more time to learn each broken down step (which is not what they do in the wild anyway), and while ignoring and not ADDRESSING dominant bad behavior in SOME way or another, well, I don't personally think that is nipping the problem in the bud in the MOST effective manner necessarily. 100% PR will work beautifully for some birds, though bringing this human based psychology to EVERY bird will leave some loopholes...

 

[Birdman666]

And again, you have to be particularly careful with emotionally fragile birds, especially pluckers, where even small changes in environment or training methods could trigger that neurotic downward spiral...

Those, to me, are the trickiest birds of all to work with.

Amazons, and Macaws are pretty hardy psychologically. They "get over it" quickly. And they are stubborn and contrary birds, so a certain amount of coersion is often required at first. And just about as quickly they can go from don't pick me up, to don't put me down. It's just a matter of what ever gets them over that first little "trust" hump.

 

[MonicaMc]

Birdman, I've always gotten the impression from you that if a bird doesn't come out/off their cage on the first day, it never will. I don't agree with this. Jayde, my newest girl, came to me unhandable and hadn't been handled in 6+ months. She is a young bird, and I can't say that she was abused, but I never forced her off her cage or away from it. I allowed her to choose when to come off her cage which still worked!

I got her June 6th of last year. Within days, without using any force or coercion, she was on my shoulder by her choice. Now? She'd rather be on me than on her cage! At first, her cage was her "baby blanket" and there were times she would start to freak out and make worried noises. Any time she started to feel uncomfortable, I *always* took her back to her cage. At first, she'd stay a while and didn't want back up on me, but that was ok. As time progressed, she got to the point that she just wanted to touch her cage and that was enough for her. She no longer makes those worried noises any more when she's with me. Actually, the last time she made the noise was while she was *ON* her cage and she wanted to be on me instead!

I don't think one has to wait years for a bird to be ready to interact, although I do believe that it helps to allow the bird to settle in and get comfortable within the environment before training starts. Not only does the bird need to get used to the environment, but you as well. Depending on the bird, this could be a few days or weeks. I also believe it depends on how often you try to work with the bird.

Lara Joseph also has a bird that was so far gone that he was going to be euthanized. Rocky was a screamer, showed high levels of aggression, and when down on the floor he would attack feet. Lara didn't have to use force, didn't have to use a towel, and most certainly did not need to use a pillow to back him up into a corner to get him to stop chasing after her.

Here's her blog where she talks about some of that, as well as a quote from it.

Behavior Trained Through Consistency?A Win/Win Outcome for All | Lara Joseph

Lara Joseph; Avian Behavior, Training, & Enrichment Facebook page a photo of Rocky, my almost 13 year old moluccan cockatoo on my shoulder. What is the big deal about this photo? The fact that Rocky is on my shoulder. Rocky is a re-home that came into my life almost five years ago. He came to me from a shelter with a plethora of behavior issues and was highly suggested to me that he be euthanized for his level and intensity of behavior issues. Five years ago when I began interacting with him I was not able to get him out of his cage without a bite or obvious signs of aggression. Through consistent training and use of applied behavior analysis and positive reinforcement training over the past five years, Rocky is many things including one of the most well-behaved birds in my house and has just, for the first time ever, perched on my shoulder.

Please don't misread that as in it took 5 years to train him! It took 5 years before Lara trusted him on her shoulder!



I don't think working with wild life that will be released is quite the same as working with captive parrots. Yes, you *DO* want wild animals to remain afraid of humans, but you don't want parrots to remain afraid! I don't see why one would have to be unnecessarily cruel to wild life though. I can understand having to towel them, anesthetize and all those other things that go along with making sure that the birds are healthy enough to return to the wild, but I don't see why you'd have to be unnecessarily cruel about it all.

Which actually brings up an interesting thought. What about falconry? The practice of capturing a juvenile BOP, training the bird, then later releasing the bird? These animals are not afraid of humans once they are taught. They were born wild, so it's not like they were ok at first with being handled. It's actually believed that through the use of falconry, the amount of BOP's have gone up in the wild simply by ensuring the survival of the younger birds. From what I've read, BOP's have a high mortality rate within their first year of life.


I don't agree with your choice of giving birds an ultimatum. (re: towel vs hand) That's not the same as giving the bird the choice to participate or not.


Although my birds are not trained for this, birds can be taught force-free grooming. Even aviary birds that are hands off can be taught this! A parrot can be taught to enjoy being towels without the use of force or fright. A parrot can be taught to lift and hold their wing to get their wings clipped. A bird can be taught to accept getting their beak dremeled without the use of restraint. A bird could even be taught to life their feet to get their nails done, or a bird in a cage can be taught to allow grooming of the nails through the cage bars.


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ue_gi5yS4I"]Parrot Training & Taming: Greenwing Macaw has Beak Groomed with Dremel - YouTube[/ame]


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe0pW5v7vOs"]Parrot Training Clips from Parrot Care & Training Seminar - YouTube[/ame]


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67Aaes3H08k"]Parrot Training Tips - Nail Trimming - YouTube[/ame]


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS6X4p8gmqA"]Parrots trained for medical behaviors - YouTube[/ame]


I think it's amazing what can be taught through the use of positive reinforcement training! That last video shows an amazon being trained to accept nail grooming through the cage wires.


Since parrots aren't dominant creatures, I don't know what aggressive dominant behaviors you are talking about.





Jen, why wouldn't you train a cockatiel or conure the same way you might train a macaw or a cockatoo? Why does size matter? Why is it ok to ignore the bite of a smaller bird but not a larger one? Are you implying that larger parrots deserve more respect because they have a bigger beak? Because they can do more damage? Do you not think that the smaller birds can have the same thoughts and feelings as the larger birds? And should receive the same amount of respect as the larger birds?


There is no proof of dominance in wild parrots. Just because a bird wins one fight doesn't mean they'll win the next. The 'look-out' bird that watches over the flock while the rest are eating? Another bird will come up and replace that bird, giving the 'look-out' bird a rest.

Here's a quote from Susan Friedman's article - The Struggle for Dominance

Strangely, this interpretation of the dominance construct persists in spite of the lack of corroborating evidence from ornithologists, field biologists and wild bird behaviorists who are studying wild parrots. Apparently, in their natural habitat there are no alpha parrots or straight-line hierarchies. Contention between parrots appears to be relatively uncommon and brief with unpredictable outcomes that change with the wind. Life in the wild is simply not as neat as we in the companion world would have it.

Or Steve Martin FAQ's from his website mentions this....

There is much talk these days about dominance and dominance hierarchies in captive parrots. To fully understand captive bird behavior people should begin with an understanding of wild bird behavior. Through personal observations, discussions with many parrot field researchers (personal communications: Brice, February, 1994, Munn, July 1998, Gilardi, February, 1999, English, November, 2000, May, May 15, 2001) and review of literature, we have found no evidence of flock hierarchies in wild parrots. The field researchers all attest to aggression and disputes among parrots.

However, the aggressors are not consistent from one incident to another. A bird that loses a confrontation with one bird may just as well win a confrontation with the same bird later. It could be said that the winners of these confrontations are dominant over the losers. However, the dominant position is limited to each specific incident and does not carry over to future encounters. There is no evidence of social hierarchies in flocks of wild parrots that resemble social hierarchies commonly found in many mammal species. If dominance hierarchies exist in wild parrots they are most likely limited to family groups.

And I think you misunderstand the use of positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement doesn't mean you "ignore" the bird when it bites you, then reward the bird when it doesn't bite you. With positive reinforcement, you try not to put the bird in a position that will result in a bite, thus avoiding the bite and teaching the bird that he or she has no reason to bite in the first place. I would never suggest for a person to "ignore the bite", regardless of the size of the bird!

Though some may not agree, I think that with a dominant bird who wants nothing more than to bite that target stick to splinters is going to take WAY more time to learn each broken down step (which is not what they do in the wild anyway), and while ignoring and not ADDRESSING dominant bad behavior in SOME way or another, well, I don't personally think that is nipping the problem in the bud in the MOST effective manner necessarily. 100% PR will work beautifully for some birds, though bringing this human based psychology to EVERY bird will leave some loopholes...

What makes a bird "dominant" when it bites a stick? A bird could be biting a stick because of fear or perhaps it doesn't like the stick.

A good way to target train a bird that bites the target is to train the bird to reach for the target, but not to bite it. Watch this video of Barbara target training a macaw. If you pay close attention, you can see that Barbara is rewarding the B&G for reaching for the target, but not necessarily touching it.


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4DjiRJu5gQ"]Part 1 - Target Training B&G Macaw with Barbara Heidenreich at Rodies Feed & Pet Supply - YouTube[/ame]



What behaviors are you thinking of?

 

[RavensGryf]

Quote:"If dominance hierarchies exist in wild parrots they are most likely limited to family groups.."

Like OUR "family groups" in our home perhaps.

I've seen the BH target training vid before, and many other examples of targeting. It does work well for lots of things! I just think that a 100% cookie cutter approach for every single instance and every single bird all of the time is not necessarily the ONLY option.

 

[RavensGryf]

Ooh beautiful Gang Gangs!! Adorable but hard to keep species.

 

[JerseyWendy]

I will only say this, and then exit this thread (and only keep an eye on it from here on out):

Parronting isn't all text book and science. Nothing ever is when it comes to living harmoniously, successfully and happily with living creatures, big or small.

TLC and common sense can go a long way.

 

[MonicaMc]

A big "if" there! Since it's not been proven to be in wild parrots!


There are many different ways to teach parrots to target, both with and without a target. If using a target, you can use anything you want the bird to orientate to!


Stepping up can also be taught in a variety of manners.... from stepping up from a cage, to stepping up from a perch or from furniture.


Likewise, if you have a shoulder bird and you want them to be on your hand, once they are on your shoulder you could teach the bird to walk down your arm and to your hand through increments to receive a reward.


Jayde is kind of an example of that one, although I employed it differently. At first she would only leave her cage if she could climb onto my shoulder. She would not leave the cage if I presented my hand or arm. I got her used to my hands by giving her scritches while bringing my hand closer to her. If she bit, or went to bite, I removed my hands and she stopped receiving scritches. I would then try again until she was ok with my hand being near her. At the same time, I was getting her used to climbing onto my upper arm instead of my shoulder, then worked on getting her to step up to my lower arm, then eventually to my hand.




It may seem to be "cookie cutter", and a *LOT* of trainers would recommend target training as the first behavior you teach a new animal, however there are so many different ways that you can teach it! And once taught, there are so many ways you can employ that behavior!

With target training you can teach things like step up, turn around, go to cage, go to perch, climb a ladder, play with toys (great with birds who don't know how to play with toys!), or any other number of behaviors!

 

[EnglishMuffin]

Target training is amazing, and obviously works very well, but all those videos you're posting are of people whose full time job it is to work with parrots. Those of us who have full time jobs that take us away from our fids, or who have non feathered kids to worry about, just don't have the time to do that kind of training.

And not ever putting a parrot in the position of wanting to bite is all well and good if you're the only person interacting with it. I know when Sootie is posturing to bite, I know when she's likely to, and given my experience with birds I could hazard a decent guess with other parrots when they're likely to bite too. But my friends, family, and people we meet on the street don't know, and can't tell. So I teach her not to bite all, because then I know it's safe to socialise her with other people. I negatively re-enforce bad behavior like biting by saying 'no' and putting her on the floor. If she won't step up nice, she'll go on the floor. Then she gets rewarded for behaving correctly.

 

[MonicaMc]

Target training is amazing, and obviously works very well, but all those videos you're posting are of people whose full time job it is to work with parrots. Those of us who have full time jobs that take us away from our fids, or who have non feathered kids to worry about, just don't have the time to do that kind of training.

If you can set aside 30-60 minutes to interact with your bird every day, you have enough time to train your bird!


It's better to do short training sessions throughout the day rather than one long training session. When I say short, I mean 2-5 minutes short, maybe build up to 10 minutes, once or twice a day!


That's doable, isn't it?