Safety concerns

HeatherG

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So an example: my old Quaker Lucy had many toys that weren’t destroyed when she passed away two+ yrs ago. Like a seagrass playgym. I thought Willow would probably enjoy this toy so I disinfected it.

First I washed the whole gym in dish detergent. Rinsed well and stripped it of plastic or paper parts. Plastic parts can be bleached if desired. Then I baked the seagrass mat and wooden toy parts from it and dried the plastic parts and shoelaces. Then reattached the plastic parts with shoelaces and beads and reassembled the whole playgym.

A lot of toys can be refurbished with new beads, wooden chewy parts, paper bagels, etc. that’s what I did with Willow’s worn out toys when he came here, so they would look familiar and he would not be afraid of them.
 

LeeC

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I have always requested that our Avian Vet(s), over the years, write down all instructions
That is a great point, @SailBoat. My avian vet is quite good about doing this without my having to ask. I'd say that is a key element of what I am "buying". I pay close attention when she explains it all in person, then, I get home and need to follow her instructions hours later (my avian vet is hours away), and I suddenly have a question—which is answered in her written exam notes! :]
 

HeatherG

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That is a great point, @SailBoat. My avian vet is quite good about doing this without my having to ask. I'd say that is a key element of what I am "buying". I pay close attention when she explains it all in person, then, I get home and need to follow her instructions hours later (my avian vet is hours away), and I suddenly have a question—which is answered in her written exam notes! :]
Always always keep and review exam notes. Probably even if you’re about to call the vet with a question, the notes cover what to do in case of this or that and the vets plans or hopes for the bird.
 
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BirdyBee

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Would it be safe to bake coloured toys? Like, coloured popsicle sticks? I have natural wood parts, but also coloured wood parts. I have some foam pieces, but I don't know how to disinfect them(I know some of you are against foam toys, but I think they're ok as long as your birds don't eat them. Most of my birds do, and since the budgies share a cage, I can't tell who will eat it and who won't).

Sorry for all the questions, I just want to make sure my toys will be safe before selling.
 

SailBoat

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The food coloring dyes are safe, as long as they are NOT manufactured in China!! Sadly, that country manufactures both safe and non-safe products and one has to be very careful.

Once one colors wood and like porous products, washing can cause the dye to release and that is likely not what you want to happen.

Baking regardless of whether one is baking (cooking) or using the oven to disinfect one needs to be watching as too long or too hot become problematic and each batch will be different.

It has become very important to Read the ingredients uses in washing products. We make it a point to only use Dawn Dish Washing soap. But more importantly, only its original formula as they have newer formulations that contain chemicals that require very deep rising to remove. Regardless which 'soap' is your favorite, assure that it is not the fast action /deep cleaning type as those are more difficult to rise the chemicals away.
 

Kentuckienne

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Pip, everyone will have an opinion about this. Here is mine. I’m going to write a lot, because everything is relative, and only you can look at your situation and decide what to do. What works for someone else might not work for you.

Everything is a matter of degree. Doctors will agree that medicine and poison are the same thing - everything depends on the dose. If you drink too much water, you will die. If you don’t drink any water, you will die. There are different levels of “clean room”. To make semiconductor chips, you need a space with ZERO particles of dust. To run a test lab for Ebola, you need a space with ZERO chance of contamination. But to raise a healthy child, you need some exposure to germs, dirt, animals, allergens…because the human immune system needs what‘s dangerous. Children who grow up with pets often have fewer serious allergies later in life, because the immune system has learned not to overreact, while also learning what germs will make us sick.

So. Quarantining a new bird is hard to do perfectly, but we do the best we can. Chances are, a new bird might not be sick, and someone will get away with just keeping it in a different room. But a new bird could have something terrible, like Pacheco’s, and if the quarantine isn’t good all the birds in the house will get sick. The vet might be tired of telling people how to do quarantine right only to see them cut corners. Or they might be a jerk.

Soap and water will kill most germs, because most germs have a lipid-containing membrane. Lipids are fats, and soap molecules attach to the fat molecules and break apart the membrane, killing the germ. This is why it’s so important to wash our hands with soap to prevent the spread of disease. You can wash the toys and the things you make them with with soap and water, rinsing them very thoroughly to get all the soap residue out. Use a neutral soap without scent. Wash your hands before handling toys. Assemble the on a clean table in a separate room from all other pets, especially birds. Some things like wood and rope have too many crevices and pores to be cleaned, so putting them in a 175F oven for a couple hours will sterilize them. Then they can go right into a clean plastic bag so they will stay clean. It’s still important to wash items before heating that might have chemicals on them, because heat won’t remove dirt and chemicals. And there are always some mold spores that can survive heating.

The toys won’t remain sterile, but they will probably be safe. There used to be a website called My Safe Bird Store, and you can check sites like that to see what they recommend. I use stainless steel chains, bells, hangers, clips, etc. which are easy to disinfect. I heat wood, sisal rope, branches, anything like that in the oven. I keep the cleaned materials in plastic crates. Plastic and metal can usually be sterilized in boiling water.

I buy supplies in stores and online, and I assume they are contaminated. A spool of sisal role might look clean, and be clean enough for me to use for myself, but I wouldn’t put in in a bird toy without checking it. I smell it, because some things are manufactured using chemicals. The company might treat the rope with insecticide, or spray the warehouse with rat poison, or there could be mold spores from damp storage. Your nose is pretty sensitive, and you will probably be able to smell chemicals and mildew. I wash /heat materials right before I use them. Putting stuff in the sunlight is also good, the UV light doesn’t kill germs, but it disrupts the DNA so they can’t reproduce properly.

Store the finished toys in clean packaging or totes, and try not to make too much in advance. Keep everything as clean as you can, and make sure you tell your customers about it. People will appreciate buying toys that are safe for their birds and be willing to pay a little more.
 

LeeC

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Senegal: Ivy
The food coloring dyes are safe, as long as they are NOT manufactured in China!! Sadly, that country manufactures both safe and non-safe products and one has to be very careful.

Once one colors wood and like porous products, washing can cause the dye to release and that is likely not what you want to happen.

Baking regardless of whether one is baking (cooking) or using the oven to disinfect one needs to be watching as too long or too hot become problematic and each batch will be different.

It has become very important to Read the ingredients uses in washing products. We make it a point to only use Dawn Dish Washing soap. But more importantly, only its original formula as they have newer formulations that contain chemicals that require very deep rising to remove. Regardless which 'soap' is your favorite, assure that it is not the fast action /deep cleaning type as those are more difficult to rise the chemicals away.
For personal care products, I abide by "If you wouldn't put it in you, don't put it on you. ...Well, soap goes on me, even if temporarily, assuming I rinse it away completely. For that reason, I use castile soap: on my body, on my dishes, on the parrots' dishes--everywhere.

In particular, I use this, to refill dispensers at each sink:
 

SailBoat

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For personal care products, I abide by "If you wouldn't put it in you, don't put it on you. ...Well, soap goes on me, even if temporarily, assuming I rinse it away completely. For that reason, I use castile soap: on my body, on my dishes, on the parrots' dishes--everywhere.

In particular, I use this, to refill dispensers at each sink:

Not a big proponent for several of the ingredients that are included and find it unusual /odd for a cleaning product to include several oils. Your birds, your choice.
 

LeeC

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Timneh: Grady;
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Brown-throated Conure: Pumpkin (foster)
Senegal: Fletcher
Senegal: Ivy
Not a big proponent for several of the ingredients that are included and find it unusual /odd for a cleaning product to include several oils. Your birds, your choice.
@SailBoat, I am intrigued. Which ingredients concern you?

Ingredients:

Purified water
Organic coconut, argan, jojoba, hemp, and olive oils
Organic vegetable glycerin
Potassium hydroxide (none remains after saponification)
 

LeeC

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Brown-throated Conure: Pumpkin (foster)
Senegal: Fletcher
Senegal: Ivy
@SailBoat, is this the same Dawn soap you recommend?

Ingredients:
1664554637642.png



Yikes. Your birds, your choice. 😬
 

Terry57

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Would it be safe to bake coloured toys? Like, coloured popsicle sticks? I have natural wood parts, but also coloured wood parts. I have some foam pieces, but I don't know how to disinfect them(I know some of you are against foam toys, but I think they're ok as long as your birds don't eat them. Most of my birds do, and since the budgies share a cage, I can't tell who will eat it and who won't).

Sorry for all the questions, I just want to make sure my toys will be safe before selling.

Pipp, you should be fine with putting coloured popsicle in the oven. Are you going to dye them yourselves? I always colour all of my stuff that needs to be baked after, although I really have no idea if it makes a difference. I was worried about my colours losing their vividness.

@SailBoat, is this the same Dawn soap you recommend?

Ingredients:
View attachment 44609


Yikes. Your birds, your choice. 😬

I also use Dawn to wash all their dishes and toy parts when needed. In fact, that is what my Avian vet suggests using.
 

LeeC

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Senegal: Fletcher
Senegal: Ivy
Pipp, you should be fine with putting coloured popsicle in the oven. Are you going to dye them yourselves? I always colour all of my stuff that needs to be baked after, although I really have no idea if it makes a difference. I was worried about my colours losing their vividness.



I also use Dawn to wash all their dishes and toy parts when needed. In fact, that is what my Avian vet suggests using.
I truly treasure my avian vet; but, I have higher standards for some things. I know that puts me in the minority. It's also why my "health age" is a lot younger than my "biological age". :] My ultra-low toxin lifestyle naturally cascaded to the parrots in my care, once I brought them home.

Veterinarians are medical doctors. They are not nutrition experts. They are not behavior experts. They are not even health experts. They are trained in identifying disease and injury, then treating with pharmaceutical medicine and/or surgery. Those are precious skills--but, there is a lot more to keeping parrots and keeping parrots healthy. I would be lost without my avian vet at times (too often), and I try to do my part on the rest: nutrition, behavior, etc., consulting other experts in those fields.
 

Terry57

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I truly treasure my avian vet; but, I have higher standards for some things. I know that puts me in the minority. It's also why my "health age" is a lot younger than my "biological age". :] My ultra-low toxin lifestyle naturally cascaded to the parrots in my care, once I brought them home.

Veterinarians are medical doctors. They are not nutrition experts. They are not behavior experts. They are not even health experts. They are trained in identifying disease and injury, then treating with pharmaceutical medicine and/or surgery. Those are precious skills--but, there is a lot more to keeping parrots and keeping parrots healthy. I would be lost without my avian vet at times (too often), and I try to do my part on the rest: nutrition, behavior, etc., consulting other experts in those fields.
Saying you have "higher standards" than others is a bit insulting, no?

Could you explain why rescuers use Dawn to remove oil for birds caught in an oil spill? The Dawn is much closer to the birds than anything I wash and rinse multiple times, so I'm interested in why you think they use it.

Research can only take one so far. People's real experiences and decades of experience shouldn't be discounted because of something someone read.
 

LeeC

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Senegal: Ivy
Saying you have "higher standards" than others is a bit insulting, no?
I certainly didn't mean it that way. I was just thinking and typing matter-of-factly. I apologize to anyone who did or would take it that way.

Could you explain why rescuers use Dawn to remove oil for birds caught in an oil spill? The Dawn is much closer to the birds than anything I wash and rinse multiple times, so I'm interested in why you think they use it.
Knowing how the world works--and having worked at two advertising agencies for a total of 8 years, I strongly suspect that was a coordinated marketing opportunity (donation, "paid placement", that sort of thing). Of course, Dawn will not outright harm a bird, but it is certainly quite a way from being a more natural product, like the one I use and shared. Did you read that ingredient list?!! Plus, Dawn is readily available, even in remote areas, compared to castile soap, but I have noticed that castile soap is showing up in more and more stores, as more people take interest in the quality of products they use and what they are effectively putting down the drain.

Research can only take one so far. People's real experiences and decades of experience shouldn't be discounted because of something someone read.
Sorry, but I have no idea what you are referring to.
 

Terry57

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Knowing how the world works--and having worked at two advertising agencies for a total of 8 years, I strongly suspect that was a coordinated marketing opportunity (donation, "paid placement", that sort of thing). Of course, Dawn will not outright harm a bird, but it is certainly quite a way from being a more natural product, like the one I use and shared.
Can you cite your sources for it being a sponsorship thing?
If Dawn does not harm a bird, why would you make it sound like we're using something that will kill our birds?
I don't know about you, but I rinse my bowls, etc several times, so the brand someone uses shouldn't matter because it is all rinsed off.

Did you read that ingredient list?!!
I did. I also read the ingredients in what you use and I wouldn't use something with that much oil in it. It sounds like an Amway product because of all the uses for it. I trust products that work for specific things, personally.
Plus, Dawn is readily available, even in remote areas, compared to castile soap, but I have noticed that castile soap is showing up in more and more stores, as more people take interest in the quality of products they use and what they are effectively putting down the drain.
Yes, Dawn is readily available, and I've never even heard of the one you mentioned.
I believe I will stick with a brand I know won't hurt my birds.
Sorry, but I have no idea what you are referring to.
I was referring to this:

@SailBoat, is this the same Dawn soap you recommend?

Ingredients:
View attachment 44609


Yikes. Your birds, your choice. 😬
Sailboat has had birds literally for decades and yet you chose to post to him as if he is someone who just got a bird and doesn't know what he's talking about; that is definitely not the case as he is one of the most knowledgeable members we have here.

Discussions like this are great as long as no one is disrespected. That is what happened here. He told you, " Your birds your choice" and you added a yikes to yours.
Not cool.
 

LeeC

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Senegal: Fletcher
Senegal: Ivy
Can you cite your sources for it being a sponsorship thing?
If Dawn does not harm a bird, why would you make it sound like we're using something that will kill our birds?
I have two business degrees. Corporations have a sole responsibility to act in the best interest of their shareholders. If sponsoring wildlife rescue did not achieve that end, J&J has a duty to not do it. I favor capitalism. J&J has a right to "buy" "good will". We need to recognize that for what it truly is. Just because their product is effective for removing crude oil from wild birds (which is a tragic situation that both breaks my heart and boils my blood), that does not mean I should use it to wash my parrots' dishes.
I don't know about you, but I rinse my bowls, etc several times, so the brand someone uses shouldn't matter because it is all rinsed off.
I am definitely an over-rinser. :] 'Tis far better than to rinse too well, than not quite well enough.

By that logic, I can wash my parrots' dishes with gasoline or battery acid.
I did. I also read the ingredients in what you use and I wouldn't use something with that much oil in it. It sounds like an Amway product because of all the uses for it. I trust products that work for specific things, personally.
You have been affected by effective marketing. We all have to varying degrees.
Yes, Dawn is readily available, and I've never even heard of the one you mentioned.
I believe I will stick with a brand I know won't hurt my birds.
Do you have research to cite this?
I was referring to this:


Sailboat has had birds literally for decades and yet you chose to post to him as if he is someone who just got a bird and doesn't know what he's talking about; that is definitely not the case as he is one of the most knowledgeable members we have here.
How could I have known that about Sailboat? Wow, you read a lot into my post, ...a lot that wasn't there.
Discussions like this are great as long as no one is disrespected. That is what happened here. He told you, " Your birds your choice" and you added a yikes to yours.
Not cool.
What Sailboat did was not cool. Perhaps I responded in kind. Sailboat is trying to tell me that a product made from purified water and one of a few certified-organic, naturally-occurring oils is hazardous for my birds, and his chosen concoction of 21 different chemistry-lab chemicals, which surely all come with hazard warnings in their original containers, is safe. I think most people can see the problem with that.
 

Cottonoid

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Anyone who has worked in wildlife rescue, myself included, can tell you that Dawn is the best choice for oil removal BECAUSE of its harmful ingredients. It was designed to cut grease on food without harming human skin, and contains petroleum (big part of why it works for crude oil) along with a balance of surfactants that aren't absorbed through the skin and do not dry the skin. It works better for this use than any other product easily available, and I haven't yet met somebody that's worked with oil covered birds that would use anything else, even those of who use all plant based cleansers otherwise.

I've used Castile soaps including making my own for 35+ years (Castile=oil based soap, historically olive oil- that's why the ingredients are heavy on oil) but I still have a jug of original Dawn in my cupboard for animal related needs.

Whether a compound is harmful or inert is a matter of how the particular molecules bind to each other. Synthetics aren't always worse even though they do have more steps and more processing to achieve the stable product.

I think it's great to strive for a day to day living scenario that matches our values and ideals, and I personally really enjoy learning about how people achieve this or try to make it work, and enjoy even more learning from people who are very different from myself.

What I do not enjoy, however, is implying people are harming their birds by using products that have been used successfully by folks who have lived and worked with birds for many decades. Are there safer options? Maybe, wholly depending on where someone lives and what their water source is like. Castile soaps for example are not an effective option if you have hard water as the minerals bind too easily. Overall safety of a detergent like Dawn assumes we are using water within a treatment system and not while camping, for example.

The goal of a forum like ours is to learn from one another. In my opinion as a member, not a mod, it's more fun to engage in debating a topic and learning facts I didn't know if I don't feel like I'm spoken down to. Having a lot of passion for a topic (especially in the early years of diving in, for me) has sometimes caused me to have a bit of tunnel vision and I'm sure it's led to missing out on some great learning collaborations. I don't want that to happen on our forum - we have members from all over the world with very different environments surrounding us, and I would be really bummed to have someone stop asking questions for fear of being summarily told they're doing it wrong.
 

LeeC

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Senegal: Fletcher
Senegal: Ivy
What I do not enjoy, however, is implying people are harming their birds by using products that have been used successfully by folks who have lived and worked with birds for many decades.
If someone thinks I did that, please show me where--not to be argumentative, but because I did not intend to do that nor do I see that I did. (I said "Yikes" to the Dawn ingredient list, not to Sailboat.) The opposite seemed to happen. Someone implied that I am harming my birds by using a very "natural"/"clean" (no pun intended) product, that has also stood the test of time (Its origins go back millennia.), because that person is not familiar with the nature of the product (being surprised that an oil-based soap is made from oil).

I appreciate your posts in this thread @Cottonoid. I am here to learn, too, and I learned a few things from your posts.

I would like to inquire further about a few things in them, because they don't reconcile with my research or understanding, but this has, I have, apparently touched a nerve, so I'll pipe down, and stop prompting interesting and beneficial discussion.
 
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BirdyBee

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This thread has gone far off-topic from what I intended it to be and I don't like it. So can we please stop debating soap ingredients and its safety, and agree to disagree? Because I have lost interest in this thread as it's no longer giving useful advice for me. These posts aren't really helping me or the thread. I don't have dawn soap available in my country anyway, so even if I wanted to I can't get it.

If you have advice related to my original post, please share it.

If you guys really want to debate this further, I'd prefer if you make another thread solely about soap and its safety.
 

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