Weaning Process

[kfinklea1]

Hello all.

I have a blue headed pionus, around 15 weeks old who is on two handfeedings a day (20cc morning/30cc night). He eats well on his own throughout the day, hes not a huge fan of fruits and veggies but we are trying new ones everyday and he just recently started going to the water bowl and drinking (he was not doing this when we first got him).

He does not show any signs of wanting to wean off formula at all. This is my first time handfeeding. I was informed by the people he came from to feed until he refuses a feeding and do this until he is fully off formula.

With him eating well and drinking does this sound like he is on the right track?

 

[Loko]

It sounds like hes doing very well to me. Im not super experienced with hand feeding or with pionus parrots but I did wean my sun conure and have been around many chicks. Weaning is just that, slowly lowering the amount of handfeeding and increasing self feeding until the two meet and the handfeeding stops so the bird can become an adult. In other words lowering dependance. With that said, I havent seen any bird refuse a hand feeding, in fact many of the birds Ive seen being weaned along with my own seek out fingers thinking theyre going to give them formula. They would love to be handfed more. Its more about making a smooth and easy, healthy transition for the bird from dependance to independance. If the bird is eating and drinking well on its own, I would cut a feeding down to one. Monitor the weight very closely and if everything continues going well for a week or a little less I would cut that one feeding by half the amount for a few more days and again monitor weight, then stop completely if weight is and everything is good. I also used a laser thermometer to ensure temperature was correct for formula and to avoid crop burn, they are very good if you can get one. This is the method I used and was taught by the breeder I got my sun from, Im sure other will have more to say as well.

 

[kfinklea1]

It sounds like hes doing very well to me. Im not super experienced with hand feeding or with pionus parrots but I did wean my sun conure and have been around many chicks. Weaning is just that, slowly lowering the amount of handfeeding and increasing self feeding until the two meet and the handfeeding stops so the bird can become an adult. In other words lowering dependance. With that said, I havent seen any bird refuse a hand feeding, in fact many of the birds Ive seen being weaned along with my own seek out fingers thinking theyre going to give them formula. They would love to be handfed more. Its more about making a smooth and easy, healthy transition for the bird from dependance to independance. If the bird is eating and drinking well on its own, I would cut a feeding down to one. Monitor the weight very closely and if everything continues going well for a week or a little less I would cut that one feeding by half the amount for a few more days and again monitor weight, then stop completely if weight is and everything is good. I also used a laser thermometer to ensure temperature was correct for formula and to avoid crop burn, they are very good if you can get one. This is the method I used and was taught by the breeder I got my sun from, Im sure other will have more to say as well.

Thank you for the helpful advice. I was wondering if I should cut down again. From what I know about pionus they love food, so I cant imagine he would willingly give up a feeding on his own. Would you suggest cutting the morning feeding to 10cc for the next 3 or 4 days and then drop it totally.

 

[Loko]

That sounds good, and then judge the last stretch by progress. If hes doing good you can cut the later one down after a few days and then continue giving that last little bit for a little bit longer until youre confident hes totally good on his own. Just keep an eye on weight.

 

[SilverSage]

With all due respect, DO NOT cut down to one feeding!

The practice of decreasing formula before the bird is ready is known as FORCE WEANING and is a CRUEL AND DAMAGING practice that often has life long consequences. If your bird is being fed often enough, he WILL begin to refuse feedings when he is ready. If he is NOT being fed often enough, he will be emotionally desperate for the food and beg constantly.

I'm not saying this as someone who has never done it; I am a breeder and I do this with babies every year. Yes, it can be frustrating, but it is what you signed up for when you bought an unweaned baby. PLEASE KEEP FEEDING INTIL HE HAS REFUSED ALL FORMULA FOR AT LEAST 3 DAYS IN A ROW.


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[SilverSage]

These stages of weaning are about EMOTIONAL STABILITY not physical nutrition, so simply monitoring weight (while important) is NOT a good way to tell if your baby is ready to wean.


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[Loko]

Like I said, this was taught to me from a breeder /pet shop owner( in NY) and in no way was I saying to forcibly wean the bird, just sharing what I learned and worked for me. If you cant tell if the bird is emotionally ready to be cut down, meaning eating on its own and not asking for food at feeding time and displaying independance, and you dont feed it if it is begging, then you shouldnt be hand feeding anyway. In no way was I saying to just cut it down and let the little thing suck it up and get with the program or die, but if you can see the bird is not requesting the feeding and advancing then moving on isnt always a bad thing. Maybe thats an old school way of doing it but Ive never seen him forcibly wean a bird, all of them are comfortable babies, its just about getting a feel for where the baby is in terms of maturing. Of course not denying a chick that is not ready.

 

[SilverSage]

I'm
In no way trying to be harsh, but I am firmly and emphatically stating that the method you are describing, is called force weaning, and it is BAD.

By waiting to offer food until the baby begs, you shake their tiny developing emotional security. I'm not talking about letting a baby starve to death, because I assume that neither you nor the original poster would ever do anything if the sort. I am insisting; OFFER EVERY FEEDING UNTIL THEY REFUSE IT. An emotionally healthy baby WILL refuse food when the time comes.

Pet stores ALMOST ALWAYS force wean because they need to move the babies along. That's the brutal truth of the industry. Some people don't know they are damaging the babies, others don't care. And you are right to call it "old school" but there are many things aviculture USED to do because they didn't know better, but we do now.


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[SilverSage]

I should also say, many of the consequences don't show up until adulthood; it's very easy to raise babies that seem perfect. With larger birds the consequences may not show up for 7+ years.

I'm not at all saying your friend doesn't care about his birds, but his intentions don't impact whether or not this baby Pionus should have his feedings cut down.


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[Loko]

I know youre not being harsh and appreciate you saying this because like you said I didnt know any better, just going off what has worked for me, and in the future will do what you said. I trusted the guy because hes pretty well known and even had a cable tv program but that just shows the ignorance that exists I guess. I definitely didnt ever wait for a baby to beg for food, every time Ive made the judgement to move down the baby never begged because I waited long enough to be pretty sure that wouldnt happen and luckily it never did, but make no mistake Im agreeing with everything you said as it all makes perfect sense. While the way I was taught may work if you are super careful and do it 100% right, there is definitely much more room for error and like you said the possibility that the bird can develop issues if you move the slightest bit too fast.

 

[SilverSage]

We are in an amazing time in aviculture right now, where scientific discoveries are being made, veterinary care is improving, accountability is skyrocketing, and we are ALL learning. That's part of the beauty of forums like this; we get to share what we DO know, and full in what we DONT know


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[Loko]

We are in an amazing time in aviculture right now, where scientific discoveries are being made, veterinary care is improving, accountability is skyrocketing, and we are ALL learning. That's part of the beauty of forums like this; we get to share what we DO know, and full in what we DONT know


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I couldnt agree more. I learn new things every day, sometimes small and sometimes more important like this. Thats the point of these forums after all.

 

[SilverSage]

As do I and if I ever feel like I have all the answers I come smashing into some terrible thing I didn't know and it reminds me not to be so sure of myself. I can only pray that I will never stop learning.


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[Quakerella]

Well said SilverSage. As a breeder myself I only abundance wean, and NEVER release any bird unless fully weaned for at least one full week. It is a long process but necessary for the health, happiness, and future of the babies. Let the baby dictate when and how long it will take to wean.

I really do wish people would stop selling unweaned babies. There is so much harm being done to these little guys.

 

[Loko]

As do I and if I ever feel like I have all the answers I come smashing into some terrible thing I didn't know and it reminds me not to be so sure of myself. I can only pray that I will never stop learning.


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Exactly. I learned a long time ago that certainty is a concept to be used with extreme caution!

Well said SilverSage. As a breeder myself I only abundance wean, and NEVER release any bird unless fully weaned for at least one full week. It is a long process but necessary for the health, happiness, and future of the babies. Let the baby dictate when and how long it will take to wean.

I really do wish people would stop selling unweaned babies. There is so much harm being done to these little guys.

Unfortunately some people just dont care, some are ignorant, but some people truly believe that what theyre doing is right. Thats why sharing information is so vital, as times moves forward, so does our knowledge, which leads the "norms" to become outdated, and the "new" to become the norms, on and on, and better with each cycle.

 

[pionusplace]

Weaning Questions ----
1) At what average ago do WCP actually wean?

I have a 4.5 month old male WCP. His human feeder was a man.

I read somewhere that one of the signs of weaning a Pionus to quickly was the automatic rifle sound and it is a sign of insecurity. My little guy does this... when he seems uncertain and doesn't want to step up, when someone points a finger at him, and
he does it a lot in the evening when my husband gets home from work.

We have had him for almost three weeks now. He does eat kibble...I offer parrot chop, but it doesn't interest him. He won't take anything offered with our fingers...he smacks his beak like he wants to try it, but he won't come near our fingers.

Should I just leave him as he is and continue to feed adult food or try offering him baby food with a syringe?

Thanks.

 

[SilverSage]

Was he sold to you as weaned? Sometimes babies regress and offering food in a syringe might be a very good idea. Please read up on the importance of temperature, etc and how to avoid aspiration. There is much less risk in a baby that age. Also in older babies feeding is more about comfort than nutrition and can have a life long impact on his confidence. All baby birds wean at different ages even within a species, so no one can really say when he "should" wean. If he was force weaned (sounds likely) then he may need 1-2 feedings a day for much longer than he otherwise would have.


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[pionusplace]

Yes, he was supposedly weaned and the older of the two egg mate brothers. He did very well on the drive home (5 hours in the car). He only freaked out when I tried to cover him when we were back in the city and it was almost dark. He likes to know what is going on around him. Sammy is getting better at perching now, he still falls about once each day. And... he is starting to learn how to go down things instead of just jumping off and then climbing back up again. I'll do some research and pick up the supplies today and see if he wants any baby food from daddy. He simply adores my husband. Thank you.

 

[SilverSage]

Yeah, if he is so young that he is still learning to perch, he was certainly force weaned. After this long he may not transition back, it's hard to tell before you try, but that should never have happened. Babies should be perching and flying and climbing long before weaning.


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[itzjbean]

I totally agree with SilverSage on this one, feed that baby until it refuses! It's just better for hem, and more natural.

Is this your only bird? When I had to pull a baby tiel (runt of the clutch) and handfeed he was down to 2 feedings a day before I had him join one of his siblings. She was already weaned and eating on her own. He must've seen her eating and just like that he refused formula completely and began eating completely on his own. It happens differently for every bird, but I think seeing other birds eating helps too.