Why is she so mean!?

[Love_Fern]

I am sorry you feel it is abusive. I can see "why" in words you may think so, but it was gently done 2 times and she never bite him again-like a time out and it worked. What is abusive is allowing this biting dominate behavior where a bird is then neglected or not wanted by the owner or even enjoyable at all.
Fern is the most spoiled and loved bird- we absolutely adore her and I would protect her with my own life. I addressed the poster because she seemed desperate to want to love her bird and break the cycle. I suggested it only in a situation of extreme biting to teach the bird it is not acceptable, similar to a misbehaving child being sent to their room.

I won't defend my choice of training our pet not to bite my son-as I know it was in no abusive manner, so have the misconstrued opinions if you want.

 

[MonicaMc]

Well, birds aren't dominant creatures, and it's not that difficult to train new behaviors either.

Heck, even kids can do it!

Kid Works - BehaviorWorks.org



[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaRChnHt-48"]Six Year Old Parrot Trainer! - YouTube[/ame]

 

[ZoeS]

Monica, I'm not going to go through my entire training regimen with you. Having done extensive research and asked questions to many people, I feel I have done the best I can with the birds I have, being the person I am and living the life I do. My birds are not perfect, but neither is the average child, even kids with the best parents. Your way is not the only way. By all means, advocate for what you know works for you and speak out against real abuse. But I don't think the war against people who say "no" to birds that bite is really worth the time.

As for good and bad behaviour, of course they are capable of both. They are smart, adaptable. Smarter ones are capable of reasoning, logical leaps, basic two-way conversation and possibly even deception. This needs to be respected, but it's a two way street and I expect more of my birds than I do of, say, my cats. The birds are more than capable of understanding that when they bite, and I say "no", that I'm not pleased. They aren't stupid, and negative and position reinforcement are not mutually exclusive.

And really, would you really tell a parent that they are not parenting properly if their toddler has a tantrum or slaps once in a while and is told to stop, or sent to their room, and that even a kid could do a better job of parenting?

 

[jenphilly]

Monica, where do you live, because Victoria and I are going to visit and bring Folger down... obviously you have a training ability that no one else has and will be able to teach a bird that attacks with no warning how to be a good boy... Heck, I'll pay you! But, on the other hand when he takes chunk after chunk out of you, I get to video tape it and put it here on the forum.

As for so easy even a kid can do it.... show me proof this is a bird that has no training and the kid is 'training' the bird from scratch... or working with a bird that has suffered abuse for years. Thats a great video with a cute kid and a sweet bird...

As for birds not understanding language, neither do human kids, but they learn words and tone... they can even be raised by wolves and learn to speak wolf... so what the heck does that prove? Dogs learn words, do they speak the language, no, but just like birds they learn and associate a word with a behavior or activity. To this point, do you not ask your birds to step up?? Do your birds not know their names?

Okay moderators... I promise I won't post on this one anymore... we can all agree to disagree.... I have no clue why this one is just rubbing me so wrong!

I'll go off in a corner and punish myself... or could someone redirect me to a more positive behavior so I'll be good

 

[MonicaMc]

Monica, I'm not going to go through my entire training regimen with you. Having done extensive research and asked questions to many people, I feel I have done the best I can with the birds I have, being the person I am and living the life I do. My birds are not perfect, but neither is the average child, even kids with the best parents. Your way is not the only way. By all means, advocate for what you know works for you and speak out against real abuse. But I don't think the war against people who say "no" to birds that bite is really worth the time.

As for good and bad behaviour, of course they are capable of both. They are smart, adaptable. Smarter ones are capable of reasoning, logical leaps, basic two-way conversation and possibly even deception. This needs to be respected, but it's a two way street and I expect more of my birds than I do of, say, my cats. The birds are more than capable of understanding that when they bite, and I say "no", that I'm not pleased. They aren't stupid, and negative and position reinforcement are not mutually exclusive.

And really, would you really tell a parent that they are not parenting properly if their toddler has a tantrum or slaps once in a while and is told to stop, or sent to their room, and that even a kid could do a better job of parenting?

Communication goes both ways. Birds often bite for a reason. Simply saying "No" to a bird is not understanding why the bird is biting in the first place.


Yes, there are various ways of training, but I do feel as if some techniques are better than others. Techniques based on the science of behavior are great because it looks at why the behavior is occurring and how to change the behavior or prevent it.


I'm no parent, but I do know it is possible to raise a child with no slapping or spanking of the child. Was I raised that way? Not at all! I don't exactly have good memories from when I was a child or a teen. I was raised around negativity and I hate to see how negative humans can be. I hate to see how humans can be so domineering over something small and fragile. You can't dominate a flower, but you can help it by nurturing it and encouraging it to grow by making sure conditions are right. You can even guide plants on "how" to grow.

Why not raise animals in such a way that you show guidance and teaching them what to do? Birds that have no guidance will do only what they know how to do, which is often screaming and biting. They haven't been taught other ways of communication.

Monica, where do you live, because Victoria and I are going to visit and bring Folger down... obviously you have a training ability that no one else has and will be able to teach a bird that attacks with no warning how to be a good boy... Heck, I'll pay you! But, on the other hand when he takes chunk after chunk out of you, I get to video tape it and put it here on the forum.

As for so easy even a kid can do it.... show me proof this is a bird that has no training and the kid is 'training' the bird from scratch... or working with a bird that has suffered abuse for years. Thats a great video with a cute kid and a sweet bird...

As for birds not understanding language, neither do human kids, but they learn words and tone... they can even be raised by wolves and learn to speak wolf... so what the heck does that prove? Dogs learn words, do they speak the language, no, but just like birds they learn and associate a word with a behavior or activity. To this point, do you not ask your birds to step up?? Do your birds not know their names?

Okay moderators... I promise I won't post on this one anymore... we can all agree to disagree.... I have no clue why this one is just rubbing me so wrong!

I'll go off in a corner and punish myself... or could someone redirect me to a more positive behavior so I'll be good

Do all my birds step up? Nope! But then I don't need all of my birds to rely on human interaction to be happy! I'm fine with some of them being just what they are, and that's birds! I have three that frequently seek out human interaction and that I interact with daily. If the others are interested in human interaction in their own ways then I'll interact with them.

The three that request daily interaction will also fly to me. One of those birds came to me wanting interaction but being too terrified to accept it. All she'd try to do is bite. She wouldn't leave her cage for nothing! Now? She quite happily steps up in her own silly manner, flies to me and also enjoys interacting with strangers. She's a very social bird, she was just terrified of physical interaction with others. Does she still bite? Ya, if someone doesn't 'read' her right or interact with her in her own quirky manner. Point is, she's no longer a 'cage bird'!

Even most of the untamed birds have flown to me of their own choice and demanded/sought interaction with me.


I wouldn't mind a good challange! But some behaviors can't be stopped within one training session. You actually reminded me of two cockatoos - Fergus and Rocky.

Fergus
Clicker Training Parrots | Peggy's Parrot Place

Rocky (and some Rico posts, too!)
Empowerment | Lara Joseph
Changing Behavior | Lara Joseph


Maybe something in those blogs could help with Folger's behavior? (BTW, I live on the west coast!)




Zoe and Jen, if you've read it all and researched all of it, then just humor me by reading the links! No harm in that, is there? Heck, you don't even have to reply! Just consider the information within those links and if any of it can be applied to your own birds.





Here are two more posts that are equally good. (for anyone reading this thread)
Biting parrots | Learning Parrots
What TO do | Learning Parrots

 

[kiwiS]

Personally I wouldn't share these type of methods in a public forum, because that type of 'power' in the wrong hands can lead to abuse. Instead, encourage folks to do positive things, because the extremes of these will most likely only end up being good.

I think a lot of people, myself included, depend a bit heavily on the internet for resources. Sometimes it's best to take it with a grain of salt because everyone's situation is different.

Animals are not like children, where they can say "Mommy, this pillow case is scaring me, please let me out !". It is quite distressing to think what kind of horrors they must be going through without us ever knowing, so the easier we can make their lives the better. It's the price we have to pay to have these wonderful wild animals leave their natural home and come live with us in ours.

If your bird is taking things to the extreme and really dangerously injuring you and your family, then it's time to consider a professional trainer to come and work with you, or rehoming it to someone who can work with such a bird.

That's just my two cents.

 

[JerseyWendy]

I will ONLY say this one time to both Love_Fern & ZoeS:

CALM DOWN!

When I, or any other moderator for that matter, see or hear of someone putting a pet bird potentially into harms way, we WILL speak up. It's our job!

 

[tab_xo]

Oh gosh that was a big read ! haha


I agree with Monica 100%, encourage behaviours you WANT, and the bad behaviours will disappear...

Fargo doesn't scream for attention, instead he now yells 'Mum'... I was getting ready to go out yesterday, and Fargo just say saying- Mum? Muuuum! Mum.. Mum!

I couldn't stop laughing, i went in and talked to him and told him i would be back soon

But he doesn't scream! I never never punished him for screaming.. Instead when he says a good word, i will respond to him, so he knows that 'Oh, if i say mum, she thinks it is funny and will come to me! '


If a bird is getting in that grumpy kind of mood, have a toy with you, so they will bite the toy and not you! I always play with Fargo and his foot toys, i always have foot toys on my desk.. Fargo has never bitten me!!! If he wants to play rough.. He has toys he can play rough with, because i have given him positive reinforcement that is 'Yep, you can bite that toy all you want!!! You don't need to bother biting me!'



People seem to think that because a bird is small, we can manhandle them in making them behave....


A bird? Just place it in a pillowcase for a time out... Easy...



I challenge you to come to my 900kg horse, and try and 'manhandle' him when he is acting up...


If he wanted to... He could kill you... Thats it... One kick, one rear, one trample, you could be gone...


So do you think i try and use negative reinforcement with my massive horse? HELL NO!!!


I can tell you that if he is misbehaving whilst riding, and i get upset with him or make him do something, he gets even worse, and i can NOT control a 900kg horse, with my puny 60kg body!


So... If my horse is misbehaving.... I start from the beginning..

Oh, you want to go a bit fast around the jumps? Nope... Let's just walk and learn our leg aids for 5 minutes and do some trotting poles...

and then 10 minutes later, after we have realised what i want, he does the jumps perfectly!!!




I know it is horse related, but you can cross animal behaviour!!


When i got my horse, i was told 'Do not ride him on roads, he is petrified of cars, and he will bolt'


Yep.. This horse would try and run away if he saw a car... Did i smack him, tell him he is naughty and punish him?


Definitely not, i patted him, i soothed him...... That horse doesn't even look twice at a car anymore, and rides along the roads perfectly... Because i made EVERYTHING positive, so he had no reason to be upset/angry!!!



Treat your bird like he is a 900kg horse who could do alot of damage to you, not just a handful which you can make it do anything you want because you say so!


Start from the beginning, and work your way up in baby steps!


Everyone has their own opinion, that is perfectly fine!

But in my opinion, working with MANY animals, being negative is not the way to go



Fargo is incredibly well trained, no bite, no scream, trick trained, sits in his cage all day without a problem, and i achieved this by always teaching him through a positive way...

I never chucked him in a pillowcase, he would probably want to rip my hand off if i did that

I have never done anything negative towards Fargo that would make him want to be upset and bite me!

and i taught him from day 1 how to be independent, how to play with toys, so he doesn't scream whenever he is alone!



Ok,phew, all done hahahah

 

[riddick07]

I'm sorry but only being positive doesn't always work with a horse...the last person that tried to use positive reinforcement on Chip got themselves run over. He doesn't give a damn about being redirected or trying a different way. He knows what you want but just doesn't give a flying f. I've used both positive and negative. It all works when used in the right way. Chips never been abused. I've had him since he was 4 but you have to be firm and tell him hell no when he wants his way or he will literally drag you around or run you over. He is beyond smart and will wait til that one moment when you think oh he gets what I want and you relax or soothe him and he throws you off and runs off....

Trainers had trouble working with him because he just doesn't care what people want and let's them know it. And he has worked with some of the top trainers in the states. He likes working and arguing with me though. He enjoys the battle as we call it to see if he can get his way. It's not that he particularly wants or doesn't want anything he just thinks it's fun to argue. People say we are like an old married couple who know how the argument will go because we have done it a million times but we do it anyway because it's fun. People always watch and think I'm being too rough and then they try their way and Chip laughs at them.

Sorry I was just imagining trying this method with Chip and watching him kill someone. On the other hand my mare only responded to positive things and freaked when anyone become even vaguely negative around her. Which is why I don't think one particular way works. It depends on the animal wether it be bird or horse or something else entirely.

 

[ZoeS]

Negative reinforcement is often used with horses as well - just this weekend I was riding with a lady who had two horses that used to be prone to rearing (one of which I rode) - every time the horse would start to rear, she would lean forward and bop it on the head (these guys are little - 14.2-15 hh). The bop (not painful) would startle the horse into stopping the rear (and it would put her in the best forward position to ride out a rear should one occur anyway - which it never did). It solved the problem about a decade ago and no rears since.

For me, if my cats are doing something I don't want them to do, I snap my fingers, or say "oy!" or spray them with water if I need to. They aren't stupid, they figured it out and now a finger snap is enough, or even just turning my attention to them (i.e., they know they are being "watched" misbehaving).

At any rate - there is nothing wrong with using primarily or only positive reinforcement if it's working for you. My point is that there are many methods to train animals and I will always disagree with any assertion that any way but "my" way is abuse.

Adding some negative reinforcement (within reason, obviously) to your training routine is not abuse. Animals and children do it to each other and their children, and are all quite capable of understanding and learning from it.

 

[tab_xo]

Sorry just saying but anyone who gets injured by an animal is their fault :/


My horse put my in hospital the first week i owned him because he jumped out of an arena and then trampled me...


I didn't blame him for one second.... Animals have a reason for everything, just like humans..

Whether it is something we do, or something in the surroundings, there IS a reason an animal acts up



I know you have to be tough with horses, telling them 'No' and giving a little growl is not negative reinforcement

You don't let a horse drag you around the paddock of course!!! but when you wanted your horse to stand still, do you get the whip out, or a blanket, and hit them/cover them, to make them stand still?

Because i don't think that would work You tie them up, you brush them, you make them think- Hey, tying up and standing still isn't so bad...

I had a mare that was abused as a youngster, whenever she got tied up she would just rear up, and snap the leadrope... No idea what happened to make her so upset with tying!! :/



Negative reinforcement is slapping a horse across the head, getting a whip and whipping them, yelling at them, pulling their reins, kicking them repetitively...

I have been to countless horse events where i see riders whipping a horse and ripping their reins to make the horse move, but the horse just stands there...


If an animal is scared, NO negative reinforcement is going to make it better..


You don't take a horse to a jumping course which they have never seen before, and sit there and whip them to jump a fence, because they are scared.. They don't know what it is... You introduce it to them, you let them know the thing is not scary....


By teaching courage and trust THAT is the way to make a horse brave and a good horse to be ridden, because they don't associate bad anything with the action...


Even a perfect horse makes mistakes... Just like that top dressage rider who was riding her incredible dressage horse, and he just got a spook and she ended up with brain damage... You can't blame the horse, they are a flight animal, just like a bird... It is the risk you take!


If you own a bird, you WILL get bitten.. If you own a horse, you WILL fall off..


That's all there is to it!


Gotta take the good days with the bad days

 

[ZoeS]

He is beyond smart and will wait til that one moment when you think oh he gets what I want and you relax or soothe him and he throws you off and runs off....

Hahaha, I can picture this exactly. I rode a mare that I trained from the ground up - a sweet little Arab, but typical mare. She'd go along beautifully under saddle at all gaits in all situations EXCEPT at a canter in the ring. She'd go perfectly until you let your focus lapse slightly (you know that moment - just when you start to enjoy it!) and then in a second she'd flip around (not a rear but just turning around quickly and going back to the way she came) and I'd be on the ground wondering what happened. She wouldn't run off, though, she'd just stop and wander around. The only solution to that was to keep your legs tighter on her, and the outside rein tighter.

 

[tab_xo]

Was the horse rearing because of something?




I had a horse that would rear.... Every single riding session.....


Just want to see, do you think that horse is dangerous and needs proper training?

Should i send that horse away to a trainers to help him?


^ He had the vet out to him as well ^

 

[tab_xo]

I think some people get confused with negative actions and just being a bit stern...


There is a huge difference to saying 'No birdie, no biting... ah ah ahhh... No!' *Gives him a toy to bite*


To ' DON'T BITE ME.. YOU ARE GOING IN YOUR CAGE AND GETTING COVERED.. HOW DARE YOU DO THAT' *Puts bird in cage*

 

[ZoeS]

Sorry just saying but anyone who gets injured by an animal is their fault :/

Not always. Mistakes happen. I guess it's the person's fault for being in the presence of the animal, and I'd never BLAME an animal, but sometimes an accident is just an accident.

I know you have to be tough with horses, telling them 'No' and giving a little growl is not negative reinforcement

Technically, it is, actually. Negative reinforcement doesn't mean you get the whip out and beat the horse. That would be abuse. Negative reinforcement and abuse are not the same thing.

Negative reinforcement is slapping a horse across the head, getting a whip and whipping them, yelling at them, pulling their reins, kicking them repetitively...

No, it's not! That's ABUSE. Negative reinforcement is anything (short of abuse, of course) that causes the child/animal to not want to repeat that behaviour because of the negative consequence. Negative reinforcement does not cause fear.

Here's a few examples:

Cat goes on the table and you don't him to.
Distract him with a treat or toy to get him off the table = positive reinforcement
Say "no", shoo the cat off, snap your fingers etc = negative reinforcement
Poke the cat (non-painful) so it jumps off the table = negative reinforcement
Punch the cat off the table = Abuse
Scream and shout so the cat runs away in fear = Abuse


Your kid hasn't done his established chores:

Offer him a cookie if he does his chores = positive reinforcement
Tell him he will not be allowed to watch tv until he does his chores = negative reinforcement
Giving a light, non-painful swat on the butt as he fusses = negative reinforcement
Whipping him with a belt = Abuse

 

[riddick07]

I agree tab! I guess when people hear negative they think abuse or something along those lines. Negative to me is more like being firm and standing my ground. I believe animals know when your nervous and weak and use it to their advantage. Even being firm with my one mare freaked her. She was just extra sensitive and she was huge 17.2 hands and 87 inches long and a warmblood. So when she freaked you got of the way lol

 

[tab_xo]

Saying one word is not a negative reinforcement.... -_-



No Fargo, don't bite, have a toy!!!


No Kyros, don't be scared of the car.... Stand still.. Good boy... -_-


That is not what is considered negative training...




I give up.. I have too much on my plate at the moment to be going around in circles..


Like i said at the beginning..


Each to their own...


Positive, negative, whatever.. Do as you wish with your bird..


If he has behavioral issues then try different methods..


I have a brilliant bird who everyone loves, gets filmed for documentaries, and has been in magazines...


I have a horse who is worth 25 000 dollars easy in a poor horse market at the moment who i have trained...




Just enjoy spending time with your animals...

 

[ZoeS]

Was the horse rearing because of something?

I don't know, I wasn't there. I believe they "came that way" - more than likely, they did it once to someone who got scared and learned they could get out of working that way. I have seen that often.

Just want to see, do you think that horse is dangerous and needs proper training? Should i send that horse away to a trainers to help him?
^ He had the vet out to him as well ^

Not sure what you are asking here but again - I don't know, not being there to observe, I can't say. But I am sure that there is more than one way of addressing the issue and that some of those will involve non-abusive negative reinforcement.

I think some people get confused with negative actions and just being a bit stern...

These are not abstract concepts, though. These terms have accepted definitions and being "a bit stern" is negative reinforcement. Many of those who promote positive-only reinforcement truly think that saying "no" or any sort of non-painful, non-scary negative reinforcement is bad and I have been told on this forum that saying "no", wobbling your hand so they let go, or reacting to a bite in any way that is not a distraction with food/toys, is abusive.

 

[tab_xo]

and in regards to my horse who kept rearing.. Which most people would of just sent away to a trainer considering he was 'sound', no problems with him..



The horses bones in his hooves were eaten away at a young age although he never was lame, he was in terrible pain and his bone was almost through the sole of his hoof.... We only knew this after copious x-rays...



There is a reason for everything... No matter what you think.. There is.

 

[ZoeS]

Saying one word is not a negative reinforcement.... -_-

Technically it is. I'm not making up definitions, here.

Just saying the word "no" in a neutral tone isn't necessarily negative reinforcement (because animals don't know what "no" means unless they learn it), but if your bird bites, and you say "NO", in an "I'm not happy" tone, that's negative reinforcement. If you say "no, here's a toy instead!" while giggling in a highly positive tone, that would be perceived as positive reinforcement.

Positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement and abuse are three entirely different things with well established definitions and uses. I don't know else to tell you... look it up, google can probably explain it better than I can.