Always a fault of the owner, huh? Hmm...

[clayman]

Hi all,

I am once again asking you all for advice. I keep seeing this "always a fault of the owner" statement here and while I mostly agree with it and I can usually tell when I am to blame because I pushed too hard, or ignored the warning signs, or just by accident stuck my hands too close, there is one instance where I fail to see my being at fault.

The situation usually develops the following way -- me, bent over the waste tray/grate, cleaning it while the girls are out minding their business. However, that often means they "poke" each other ever more intensely and after a while, they start chasing each other quite aggressively. I cannot really tell when it's still all fun and games and when it's getting serious, but I usually try not to interfere. However, as they grow agitated and maybe even pissed off at each other, every so often one of them lands on me after a chase (and, as it happens, it's usually Tia that does) and when she sees the other one coming at her again, she lunges with her beak against my neck, nipping/biting me quite strongly before flying off.

Another instance of this (again, mostly with Tia, but Ori is not completely innocent either) is when Ori flies to the bathroom and sits atop the ledge above the mirror (it's her hiding spot of sorts). When I go there to pick her up and Tia is on my shoulder, she (Tia) tries to give me a nip on my neck/cheek/ear. Whenever she does that, I give her a resolute "No!" with a raised index finger and that makes her calm down a little. When the girls have just had an argument, I can see why she would do that -- she is still mad at her sister, but she sometimes does it even though nothing serious happened.

Honestly, if there is one thing Tia does that ticks me off, it is this issue. I do not try to provoke her at all. Could it be jealousy starting to manifest itself? I do think Tia is somewhat more attached to me than Ori. When we are in a group of people, Ori is always the one less fearful of them and she usually steps up on other people's fingers, or flies to them after a couple of minutes. Tia always either sits on my shoulder, or somewhere high and watches me and Ori. Tia was 6 weeks old when I got her. When I talked to my sister about it, she said that dogs are taken younger than usual/best for them if it is necessary for them to develop a stronger bond with their master. That makes me think that Tia was taken a little too soon and she is going to need more time before she opens up to other people.

I will work on socializing both of them throughout the coming months. We will be going outside and they will get to see the world and other people.

 

[EllenD]

"I cannot really tell when it's still all fun and games and when it's getting serious, but I usually try not to interfere."

Right there is the first and most glaring instance of this situation being the fault of the owner and not the fault of his birds! Birds are instinctual and it makes absolutely no difference if they were bred in captivity, hand raised, if they are extremely tame, etc., they will always carry their inheriant, wild instincts. The sooner you realize this and stop trying to fight it the sooner you can start understanding why these things are your fault and not the fault of your birds, and the sooner you can start to use positive reinforcement to correct the behavior.

First of all, I don't endorse letting your two Amazons out together unsupervised, especially when you know that they are prone to fighting with each other. It's very common to have one more dominant bird in a household, and that bird is also typically the more physically aggressive bird. So when your one Amazon becomes aggressive towards the other, and the less aggressive Amazon flies to you and bites you, this is absolutely your fault! She's trying to warn you that the other bird is being aggressive and biting you is her way of getting you out of there! How is that her fault? She is instinctively protecting her mate, which is you in this situation. You said yourself that the less dominant Amazon is more attached to you. So there ya go.

You can't look at birds and "fault" the same way you do with humans, and that's exactly what you're doing. You're thinking "Why is my bird, the one that is really attached and bonded to me, attacking me, when it's the other bird that is being aggressive with her, not me?" That's the way you would think about a human if they were acting this way, because this is not normal behavior for people. But your birds are simply acting completely normal for them, that's the way they act together in the wild, and you cannot rid them of those instincts and those mindsets. So you've got one bird that is being dominant and aggressive over the other one when she gets the chance to (allowed by you), and the other one flying to her mate, you, and biting you to warn you and get you to move away from the danger. Not their fault, but rather your fault in their eyes because they most likely do have a jealousy thing with you going on, and to the bird that is biting you it's absolutely your fault because you're putting yourself in harm's way.

I don't like your statement that you "cannot really tell when they're just playing and when it's getting serious" and then "but I try not to interfere"...???
You try not to interfere? So you're just going to let them get into a huge fight until one of them gets seriously injured and needs emergency avian vet treatment? You obviously have two female Amazons that in their eyes are competing for your affection and to be your mate, you know that they can become aggressive and violent with each other, and you're still letting them out alone together, and when you see their fighting "getting serious" you "try not to interfere"...Does that sound like it isn't your fault?

"Dance like nobody's watching..."

 

[SailBoat]

Yup! That be one of my Favorite, all time Statements! It's ALWAYS the Fault of the Human! We are the ones with the big head. The one that has logical thinking. Although a close one, we should be able to see patterns developing faster (but not always) then then can.

I do not care if the Human is female or male, if they do not know by age fifteen not to step in between two fussing Hens. Well you are going to learn that lessen very quickly with two Amazon Hens. Not only while one of them be pissed that you are taking the other ones side, but the one you are siding with will get pissed that you are being mean to her sister.

They will even play Good Cop /Bad Cop and switch roles between them just to mess with your head. Keeping control of two young Hens and sister's no less is going to require you to be faster thinking and faster moving than both of them. And just to add to the fun, at present, its their game and they are winning!

Consider dividing as a tactic. Get one in the cage and then working on the other may provide less likelihood of being the chew toy in the center.

At present, they appear to be running their lives and not doing a really good job of it! Your the Adult! - you have to be Faster, better, smarter.

Enjoy!

FYI: Love your visuals! Are you sure they are not planning all of this in advance?
FYI 2: Ellen Really Nailed what is going on!

 

[EllenD]

Yup! That be one of my Favorite, all time Statements! It's ALWAYS the Fault of the Human! We are the ones with the big head. The one that has logical thinking. Although a close one, we should be able to see patterns developing faster (but not always) then then can.

I do not care if the Human is female or male, if they do not know by age fifteen not to step in between two fussing Hens. Well you are going to learn that lessen very quickly with two Amazon Hens. Not only while one of them be pissed that you are taking the other ones side, but the one you are siding with will get pissed that you are being mean to her sister.

They will even play Good Cop /Bad Cop and switch roles between them just to mess with your head. Keeping control of two young Hens and sister's no less is going to require you to be faster thinking and faster moving than both of them. And just to add to the fun, at present, its their game and they are winning!

Consider dividing as a tactic. Get one in the cage and then working on the other may provide less likelihood of being the chew toy in the center.

At present, they appear to be running their lives and not doing a really good job of it! Your the Adult! - you have to be Faster, better, smarter.

Enjoy!

FYI: Love your visuals! Are you sure they are not planning all of this in advance?
FYI 2: Ellen Really Nailed what is going on!

Lol, I thought the same Steven, "It's an uprising!!! They're going to call in back-up soon!"

"Dance like nobody's watching..."

 

[clayman]

Thanks to both of you. I kind of suspected this to be the case, but I have also heard that parrots (or birds in general?) likely experience joy and anger similarly, so to me, it is not quite as clear-cut as you make it look.

I will do my best to keep them apart, should this issue arise again but what other options do I have? I do not have a separate cage/aviary for bot of them (yet) and I do not want to lock one up and leave the other one out, especially because I do not want them to start hating being inside. When I said they are on their own, I did not mean to say that I do not keep an eye on them at all. I just meant that I am occupied with other stuff and usually leave them to do whatever they are doing if they are calm and just chew away.

And to clarify, Tia, the one I said I think is more attached to me, seems to be the more dominant one. She has always been more stubborn and "action-oriented". I try hard to make sure that both get the same amount of time and affection from me and I would hate to see myself having to let each out separately because they could not be in direct contact anymore. I have just barely enough time to give them as it is.

Thanks again for your input. Lesson learned... hopefully.

 

[clayman]

A few more points for clarification, if I may:

• Even though I do not follow them closely when I clean their cage, the girls are always with me in the same room, so all I need is to raise my head and I will immediately see what they are up to. The doors are closed so there is no way for them to fly off to another room and be completely without supervision.
• When I said they poke each other, I really did not mean they fight violently, all tangled. I would certainly separate them if that was the case. It's more like "Hey, get off this shelf! I landed here first." with open beaks and threatening postures. That did not seem too critical to me, although I admit I may have been wrong in that assumption.

I understand it was foolish of me to assume that they would share my line of thinking, though. I will try to approach them with a more open mindset, although their behavior is puzzling to me at times.

Thanks again, Ellen and Sail.

 

[SailBoat]

Our goals was targeted around what to do when real problems occur and with hope being able to see them developing. Remember, water fights start with a tiny splash and can end up with an all out war. The goal is to know when to step in (early) and tools that can be used.

You have a couple of girls that are dead on smart and more than willing to use that knowledge. Combine with normal 'life as an Amazon' and infighting (the Human is mine not yours). You need to stay in front of them.

At some point, they are going to get overloaded in their play /real world stuff and what are you going to do at that point. Separate them and let everyone cool down! Seeing it for where is could /will go is your responsibility, Amazons do not come with self-limiting, cool-it switches, that's your responsibility.

Enjoy!

 

[itzjbean]

You have mentioned you don't want to cage them or play with them separately, but actually, many owners have to do this. Not all birds will get along all the time, and so it is up to us to keep them safe from hurting each other, even if that means keeping one caged while the other is let out to play. That's parrot ownership. That's just how it goes sometimes.

 

[clayman]

I know what you mean, itzjbean, but due to time constraints, it would get really difficult if I had to let each out separately and give her sufficient amount of time and attention. Hopefully, it won't come to that, although one never knows.