He’s in hospital now, seizure?

[Kentuckienne]

Don’t be offended tha someone asks about your grey....birds are sensitive to a variety of things that aren’t obvious. There are people who knew about the dangers of Teflon and got rid of all nonstick pans, who lost parrots after baking a turkey in an oven bag. Or running an oven on the self-cleaning cycle even though they had done so before without problems. Or put some “natural” oils in the humidifier or water because they read it was healthy. Or the bird food from the store was contaminated with fungus. Or the cage had galvanized metal or a toxic paint or bacteria. Or they used the recommended corn-cob shredded material - often full of aspergillosis spores - or ground walnut shells or cat litter instead of paper in the cage. There are so many things that you wouldn’t think are deadly, but are. Parrots are fragile and the human environment is dangerous for them. And when they act sick, it’s often too late to help them, so anyone who has parrot experience will be anxious and urgently ask about any possibilities because they know time is short. Even though your grey died under different conditions it’s worth racking your brain to see if you can think of any common elements, anything that was fed to them both or in both environments.

EllenD raised some very good points. There is no need for a CT scan when basic tests haven’t been done. It almost sounds like they are busy and don’t want to bother with a “cheap” bird, and are giving you big numbers to scare you off treatment so you’ll take him off their hands. There are a few different possibilities....a respiratory infection can be fungal or bacterial, both of which need different medicines, often delivered by nebulizer. It can be hard to treat them because it’s difficult to get the medication into all the air spaces. There are viral diseases like Pacheco’s that kill quickly and are very contagious. This is one of the reasons to quarantine new birds and to thoroughly sterilize all cages, toys, perched, dishes, etc. before giving them to a bird.

Can you tell us about where in the world you are? There are people here from all over the world and somebody may know of a good local resource. There is an Association of Avian Vets that has a database of certified avian vets on their website (aav.org, I think) and some of them will consult with your local vets.

If it were my bird I would not allow a CT scan or X-ray before the basic cultures are done. Birds must be put under anesthesia to do most imaging tests and that is very dangerous for them. If they are rude when you call, try to send a fax or email asking for specific answers. And remember ... if you are paying for their services, you are the boss. They are working for you, not the other way around. You don’t have to worry that they will fire you or give you a bad review! You just have to stand up for your bird and for yourself and calmly insist on correct treatment. Wishing you both good luck and good health...

 

[Scott]

They’re an exotic vet clinic at a world renowned university, the avian vets there are the only properly recommended ones in my country.

This from the OP may be part of the dilemma. Apparently not many if any other choices.

To the OP: A longshot, but you may find an alternative from this site: https://www.aav.org/search/custom.asp?id=1803

 

[Owlet]

They’re an exotic vet clinic at a world renowned university, the avian vets there are the only properly recommended ones in my country.

This from the OP may be part of the dilemma. Apparently not many if any other choices.

To the OP: A longshot, but you may find an alternative from this site: https://www.aav.org/search/custom.asp?id=1803

Thank you for this link, really helps in finding a new vet as I didn't like how me or my bird were treated last time I went to a vet (even though he was highly recommended from a bird rescue here) and Google searches weren't doing much help

 

[skeetkeet]

Hey Skeet, I just wanted to mention something also, I'm not at all against spending every dime you have to save your bird, whether a Budgie or a Cockatoo, doesn't matter. I'd sell everything I own to save one of my guys, or my dogs. So that's not my problem...

If I had a parrot with the symptoms that your Budgie was displaying, weakness, lethargy, fatigue, syncope, and crackling in his chest upon listening, I would immediately take him to my Certified Avian Vet, or if he was closed then the 24 hour Animal Hospital right near me. At the 24-hour Animal Hospital, they would immediately put him in the O2 chamber/cage, then most likely, because he's such a young Budgie, they would suggest that they try to stabilize him, then release him to my Certified Avian Vet AS SOON AS HE OPENS, OR THEY COULD GET HIM ON THE PHONE. They may even take the initial Fecal Cultures and the Nare/Nostril, Crop, and possibly Throat Cultures and send them out for testing IMMEDIATELY FOR ME, because they typically take a day or two, that way my CAV would have the results very quickly. Upon reaching my CAV, he would either order the very same cultures and possibly do blood work if I requested it and if he thought it necessary, or he would simply put him in his O2 chamber/cage and possibly do a nebulizer treatment of Albuterol ONLY if he was having trouble breathing, but not of any specific medication until the cultures came back. THE WORD "CAT SCAN" would not be mentioned at all at this point, possibly a plain-film X-Ray to look for fluid in his lungs/pneumonia, but that's it. And that might not even be possible if his breathing is bad enough to require a constant nebulizer, as with a plain-film X-Ray, a CT Scan, etc., they have to sedate the bird with short-term gas, and they won't do it if his breathing is not stable and they believe he'll survive it...

This is why what your vet is doing and how they are not only handling your bird's case, but how they have treated you as well is so disturbing, and is a red-flag for a greedy Vet Hospital. I couldn't tell if this was an Animal Hospital with an "Exotics" Vet on staff, or an actual Certified Avian Vet, but if it's only an "Exotics" Vet at an Animal Hospital then that explains a lot too.

No CAV or any other Vet for that matter should be immediately giving you $1,300 estimates that include expensive tests like a CT Scan based on your bird's symptoms. not BEFORE taking the simple, basic cultures I listed to confirm/rule-out a bacterial or fungal infection. It's ridiculous. AND HAD THEY SIMPLY TAKEN 10 MINUTES THE MINUTE YOUR BIRD HAD STABILIZED, 2 DAYS AGO, AND TAKEN THE FECAL AND URI CULTURES, THEY WOULD HAVE THE RESULTS BACK BY NOW AND YOUR BIRD WOULD MOST LIKELY BE GETTING A PRESCRIPTION AND GOING HOME!!!

Your bird stabilized with O2 and a Nebulizer Treatment only, probably of Albuterol or some similar steroid, which is yet another indication that he most likely has an Upper Respiratory Infection, a Lung Infection, Pneumonia, or something similar. They know this, any Vet would know this, and if they don't then they need some more training/education/experience. Something just isn't right here.

***What really bothers me more than anything else, even more than immediately ordering excessive and unnecessary testing before even ruling-out an infection, is the fact that you don't feel comfortable calling the doctors who actually have custody of your bird right now, and for the last 2 days. "They will call me, I can't call them...they're very busy right now"...That's awful that you feel that way...I can call, email, text, or go to my CAV's personal home on the spot if I need to, and he'll gladly see any of my birds at any time, or wake up in the middle of the night to answer a question or see one of them...That might be excessive, I know, but you should be able to call your vet as many times as you want to during office hours, especially if they are keeping your bird overnight for many days and are suggesting that you pay them $1,300+ for testing before they have even run cultures to rule-out infection...It's wrong, it's uncomfortable, and something isn't right here at all...Just my opinion as a long-time parrot owner/breeder and someone with a medical education and animal health background...

Your bird is now stabilized, he has been for over 24 hours, and he's not worsening, so if this were my bird, I would be finding the closest Certified Avian Specialist to you, whether they are a few hours away or not, calling them, explaining your bird's symptoms and exactly what has been going on to them, explaining what this place that has him is proposing be done, and asking them if they think it could be something as small/simple as an Upper Respiratory Infection/Lung Infection/Pneumonia, and if simply taking cultures for testing and medication purposes would be the first step that they would recommend, or if they too would propose a CT Scan and other invasive testing right away, before cultures. See what a CAV has to say, voice your concerns, and if they agree with me, then I'd go get your bird, pay your remaining bill, and take him immediately to this CAV.

Thank you for your response, I completely agree with you, Im not sure whether posting who it was here would show up in keyword searches on google and cause the vet to ever misshandle my bird or half-ass something because she may or may not agree with how I feel about them, but they have a BVSc DZooMed MRCVS
Also, she put the gender of bullseye down as a girl.
whatftheufhchsjskjegkhgrhkj. he has a blue nare, its mature, its fairly obvious...

I tend to be very very blunt and assertive with people when they piss me off, and that vet did that, I had a word at her about how she shouldn't be applying treatments without calling me first when it says on my contract I signed with them when I handed him in that (unless its an emergency) I will be called and consulted prior to treatments given etc, and she said something along the lines "well I had him in my hands for his check up and it was better to do it then and there" and I said how I was concerned about things happening like that without talking to me first so I can prepare myself financially as I work by appointments (tattooist), and she basically said "well the other option is just put him down if you dont want the treatment" and this next part is a direct quote; "I can make all those charges go away for you if you just tell me to put him down"
my jaw hit the floor
I have autism, and I try my best to get on with folk, but my partner was sitting with me (it was on speaker) and was taken aback by this aswell... I felt like I was in some weird back and forth with her, and im sure vets get MUCH worse conversations than the ones we were having..
Ive found another avian vet from the link posted on page 3 of this forum, theyre 40 minutes away, holy hell...I will phone them up and discuss having my routine appointments with them from now on.

ALTHOUGH;
today I got the morning call from a completely different vet today, and he was much more empathetic, he even stayed on the phone 20+ minutes to talk over everything with me and settle me down as my voice was cracking a wee bit from emotions, he basically said EXACTLY what EllenD said, and we ran the fecal tests today which came back negative, he is literally bouncing around in his cage as I speak exploring everything, his energy is so much higher... So he told me over the phone his lungs arent making noice anymore, his breathings fine and his weight is stabilized, he rented me out a nubulizer at £1.75 a day with F10, gave me antibac, antifung and antiinflamm medication to give him orally, and was so so helpful. Im going to look up his name from the discharge sheet, check him out online and whenever I do need to use the hospital ill be asking for him now. Hes home and really has a big appetite and energy compared to how he was, even better he went crazy trying to get out of the box when he heard me start talking, looking through the holes and rubbing his head over them, singing to me etc, put him in his travel cage and took him home, he chirpped to me a bit and after about half an hour I offered my finger with the door lifted just enough for my finger, he ran straight onto it, when I opened the door fully he ran straight up my arm as close as he could to my face and started chattering away to me, gave him loads of head scratches and he loved it.. He seems worlds better. Im really hoping with the meds and nebuliser weve seen the end of this, hes such a sweet little creature

 

[skeetkeet]

They’re an exotic vet clinic at a world renowned university, the avian vets there are the only properly recommended ones in my country.

This from the OP may be part of the dilemma. Apparently not many if any other choices.

To the OP: A longshot, but you may find an alternative from this site: https://www.aav.org/search/custom.asp?id=1803

Thank you for this link, really helps in finding a new vet as I didn't like how me or my bird were treated last time I went to a vet (even though he was highly recommended from a bird rescue here) and Google searches weren't doing much help

thank you for this link, looks like theres a vet 40 mins from here, Im definately going to give them a call, bullseye seems on the mend and is home now very chirpy and active, fingers crossed!

 

[Owlet]

Yeah.. if a vet said that to me I... i would lose it. That is such an incredibly awful thing to say and a VET shoudlnt be saying it. I'm, I'm at a loss for words I'm so sorry they said that to you it's so upsetting to hear about

I'm SO glad bullseye is feeling better and so glad you got a better vet after that nightmare of a woman.

 

[EllenD]

Oh my god, that's much worse a situation than I thought it was with that particular vet...So basically the bird is breathing heavily with some crackling, and the options this "veterinarian" gave you, and I use that title loosely, very loosely, were A.) Do $1,300 worth of tests, including a CT Scan, before even doing any cultures or basic testing, or B.) PUT HIM DOWN. I guess those inexpensive, helpful, simple tests I suggested would be a waste of time and money, lol...I give you credit, as I would have driven right over to that Animal Hospital and lost my ****. I'm so glad you got him out of there and he's home, and that you found a vet willing to explain things to you, give him proper treatment and testing, and discharge him.

That other vet was obviously all about money, she did tests and charged you money without your permission (a 5 minute phone call), told you she was busy and not to call her, she'll call you, and then only gave you the option of spending literally thousands or killing the bird. She also needlessly kept your bird over two nights so she could charge you for that, fully knowing that you could have done both the O2 and the Nebulizer treatments at home for a fraction of the cost she was charging you, and keeping him even after he had stabilized. That's a really bad experience, I'm sorry you had to go through it.

The important thing is that he's going to be okay, and you seemingly found a good vet that you trust and is willing to actually discuss things with you and explain them first, before actually just doing them without your permission. All of this over a simple little bug...

I hate it when veterinarians prey upon scared, worried, depressed pet owners who are desperate to do anything to save their beloved pet..and that is exactly what this vet did. She didn't want you asking any questions, nor did she explain anything to you because she wanted you to think that your bird was dying, and that the only way to save him was to do a slew of very expensive tests and treatments, knowing that you would probably pay anything you could to save your bird. That's horrible. She knows full-well that you could have walked into that Animal Hospital, had them examine your bird, take a round of cultures, put him in an O2 chamber/cage and do a Nebulizer treatment, and sent him home with some prescriptions later that same day. I hope she is never at the mercy of a doctor in her lifetime...

I'm so glad he's doing much better. Keep a close eye on him for the next week or so, make sure he gets all his medications on-time, and also I highly recommend that you put him on a daily dose of Probiotic powder, sprinkled on his food in the morning, since he's on an antibiotic. Even a human Acidophilus capsule sprinkled on his food once a day will do the trick to replace the healthy, normal bacteria throughout his GI Tract that is going to be killed-off by the antibiotic. It will also help to fight any active fungal infections he may have. And please come back with any other questions at all, any time!

 

[skeetkeet]

Oh my god, that's much worse a situation than I thought it was with that particular vet...So basically the bird is breathing heavily with some crackling, and the options this "veterinarian" gave you, and I use that title loosely, very loosely, were A.) Do $1,300 worth of tests, including a CT Scan, before even doing any cultures or basic testing, or B.) PUT HIM DOWN. I guess those inexpensive, helpful, simple tests I suggested would be a waste of time and money, lol...I give you credit, as I would have driven right over to that Animal Hospital and lost my ****. I'm so glad you got him out of there and he's home, and that you found a vet willing to explain things to you, give him proper treatment and testing, and discharge him.

That other vet was obviously all about money, she did tests and charged you money without your permission (a 5 minute phone call), told you she was busy and not to call her, she'll call you, and then only gave you the option of spending literally thousands or killing the bird. She also needlessly kept your bird over two nights so she could charge you for that, fully knowing that you could have done both the O2 and the Nebulizer treatments at home for a fraction of the cost she was charging you, and keeping him even after he had stabilized. That's a really bad experience, I'm sorry you had to go through it.

The important thing is that he's going to be okay, and you seemingly found a good vet that you trust and is willing to actually discuss things with you and explain them first, before actually just doing them without your permission. All of this over a simple little bug...

I hate it when veterinarians prey upon scared, worried, depressed pet owners who are desperate to do anything to save their beloved pet..and that is exactly what this vet did. She didn't want you asking any questions, nor did she explain anything to you because she wanted you to think that your bird was dying, and that the only way to save him was to do a slew of very expensive tests and treatments, knowing that you would probably pay anything you could to save your bird. That's horrible. She knows full-well that you could have walked into that Animal Hospital, had them examine your bird, take a round of cultures, put him in an O2 chamber/cage and do a Nebulizer treatment, and sent him home with some prescriptions later that same day. I hope she is never at the mercy of a doctor in her lifetime...

I'm so glad he's doing much better. Keep a close eye on him for the next week or so, make sure he gets all his medications on-time, and also I highly recommend that you put him on a daily dose of Probiotic powder, sprinkled on his food in the morning, since he's on an antibiotic. Even a human Acidophilus capsule sprinkled on his food once a day will do the trick to replace the healthy, normal bacteria throughout his GI Tract that is going to be killed-off by the antibiotic. It will also help to fight any active fungal infections he may have. And please come back with any other questions at all, any time!

I really want to respect vets, and I think thats what makes it so shocking when one does decide to take you for a ride, you want to imagine the people youre going to are professional and deeply concerned with the well being and life quality of animals in their care, I get that its stressful but jeezo....some people are so fickle about their animals wellbeing she could actually be killing animals with her attitude because some people will just think "you know what sod it next time I deal with it on my own" or whatever, a lot of people dont take their animals to the vets when they should, dont discourage folk ughh.
Ive ordered the vetark probiotic should be here tomorrow, and I have a tub of vetark avimix, is it possible to sprinkle both on do you know?? heres a quick link to them

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00AVTAU96/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00AVTAQHC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[EllenD]

Exactly, a lot of people who might go through what you just did would never take their bird back to a vet ever again. That's the real shame of the situation...

Yes, the Avimix/Nutrabol is just an Avian multi-vitamin powder, it will not interfere with the probiotic powder at all.

 

[skeetkeet]

Exactly, a lot of people who might go through what you just did would never take their bird back to a vet ever again. That's the real shame of the situation...

Yes, the Avimix/Nutrabol is just an Avian multi-vitamin powder, it will not interfere with the probiotic powder at all.

Thank you so much for all your help!!

 

[LordTriggs]

OP if I were you I would check the invoice from the bad vet and go through everything, anything that you didn't approve for them to do refuse payment. They broke a contract by performing those procedures without you consent. Think like this, if you took a car in to a mechanic to get an oil change and they replaced the exhaust would you pay for that without being asked?

I believe you're in England right? There's a couple of us around haha! As you found there are avian vets here, though few and far between they do all try their hardest with birds. It might be an idea contacting someone from the Parrot Society to ask if they can inform others of your dealing with this university vet

 

[skeetkeet]

OP if I were you I would check the invoice from the bad vet and go through everything, anything that you didn't approve for them to do refuse payment. They broke a contract by performing those procedures without you consent. Think like this, if you took a car in to a mechanic to get an oil change and they replaced the exhaust would you pay for that without being asked?

I believe you're in England right? There's a couple of us around haha! As you found there are avian vets here, though few and far between they do all try their hardest with birds. It might be an idea contacting someone from the Parrot Society to ask if they can inform others of your dealing with this university vet

Thats true, I have my invoice, its paid for though so it would mean more money for legal fees unfortunately... I might ask CAB.
Im in scotland, god darn english assuming im english HOW DARE YE
Joking, but I live in midlothian, so im going to check out the CAV in falkirk, parrot society is a really good shout thank you.

Update, bullseye is a lot better today still and hoping it keeps on the up and up, he takes a huff with me after giving him three different meds to the mouth via syringe and keeps his eyes open wide in upset when the nebuliser is on but hes still a sucker for a headscratch

 

[Scott]

What a fantastic turn of events from yesterday! So glad he is doing much better. Being assertive is a bonus and you may well have saved his life by removing him from the clutches of that vampire "vet."

 

[BoomBoom]

That was a vet from hell. So glad to hear Bullseye is doing a lot better!

 

[wrench13]

Glad to read that he is doing much better. Having a good vet on hand is priceless.

 

[EllenD]

Glad to read that he is doing much better. Having a good vet on hand is priceless.

Isn't that the truth, and isn't that sad...It's amazing the drastic difference between an educated, trained, experienced specialist vet, and one that just plays one on TV...I see the exact same thing with my Bearded Dragon forums, except it's much, much worse, if you can believe that. There are half as many Certified Reptile Vets with experience and knowledge than there are CAV's. It's horrible, to the point that most of the "Reptile" Vets or "Exotics" Vets, when they are brought an extremely sick Bearded Dragon with obvious signs of Metabolic Bone Disease (the most common illness in Dragons due to people not knowing/caring about lighting), don't even ask a single question to the Dragon owners, not one, such as "What UVB light do you have?"...That single question would diagnose at least 60-70% of Bearded Dragons brought in to vets if it was just asked, but it never is, because the vets themselves know nothing at all about different husbandry requirements for Reptiles...

 

[skeetkeet]

Glad to read that he is doing much better. Having a good vet on hand is priceless.

Isn't that the truth, and isn't that sad...It's amazing the drastic difference between an educated, trained, experienced specialist vet, and one that just plays one on TV...I see the exact same thing with my Bearded Dragon forums, except it's much, much worse, if you can believe that. There are half as many Certified Reptile Vets with experience and knowledge than there are CAV's. It's horrible, to the point that most of the "Reptile" Vets or "Exotics" Vets, when they are brought an extremely sick Bearded Dragon with obvious signs of Metabolic Bone Disease (the most common illness in Dragons due to people not knowing/caring about lighting), don't even ask a single question to the Dragon owners, not one, such as "What UVB light do you have?"...That single question would diagnose at least 60-70% of Bearded Dragons brought in to vets if it was just asked, but it never is, because the vets themselves know nothing at all about different husbandry requirements for Reptiles...

I agree
It seems to be that if you studied to be a "zoo vet" in this country you are able to call yourself a CAV, CHV, etc, which I guess is techincally true to a point as being a zoo vet means being able to deal with animals of all types, but perhaps this isnt what should dictate whether an "exotics" vet can say they specialise in birds, heps etc. I spoke to some other vets, apparently the "avian specialist" vet (the woman on the phone, who by the way charged £50 to me every time she handled the bird as a "specialist consultation") is actually someone whos "thing" is tortoises and other herps, not birds.

The fact that three different vets that I dealt with their kept calling bullseye a she, and he has a fully mature big blue cere, ran red flags in my head, the first thing I learnt in agriculture college during the avian husbandry unit was how to tell the genders of common kept birds, starting with budgies...

Being a vet is tough, theres a lot to learn and I get that, but come on.... dont call yourself an avian specialist or an exotics clinic if you dont even know the gender distinctive colouring of the third most popular pet in the uk...



Bullseye seems to be getting better, my heart catches in my throat every time he gets sleepy, but hes much more inquisitive and energetic than before, Im still nebulising him for 40 minutes twice a day and giving him his meds with a bit of mango juice and hes clicked if he just opens his beak and takes it it'll be over, so today was a very quick ten seconds for three different meds and Im grateful that he doesnt hate me for more than about half an hour afterwards, it seems to be true what people say about birds knowing when you're being unnecessarily cruel or not to a degree. Hes finally given the bath a shot for the first time in my hands (I dont leave it with open water lying around), it was a ten second splash around and I held him above the air purifier for awhile, he enjoyed the hair-dryer effect haha. Hes much braver and flying from here to there to my head to my desk and back again.

Can I ask,
when I google healthy budgie weight 40g seems to fall in the brackets or even be overweight, but the woman vet told me he was very underweight... Ive been weighing him at home and he fluxuates between 40 and 41g, ive tried to measure him but hes afraid of the measuring tape haha, I think hes about 7 and a half inches, but it could be 7 or even 8 (top to tail) he keeps running/flying away when I try hold it close enough; hes a grey budgie, the vet called him australian but im pretty sure he's from english show stock (floofy head) Im going to insert some photos to this thread soon

 

[skeetkeet]

heres a gallery of photos of him; heres photos of him taken on different days, some are pre-vet hospital. http://s44.photobucket.com/user/Paintbones/library/?view=recent&page=1

Im more than certain hes an english budgie.. I think she meant "english show" not an "australian show budgie" as she called it... Im making sure he is constantly surrounded with food, with the two dustings ellenD recommended which he hasnt noticed or minded, I leave lots of millet around to tempt him to certain places ive set up as "landing areas" and some millet in his cage, so he can fatten up, he still eats lots of greens and nibbles some mango here and there as well as eating a lot from his pellets/seed mix (still converting him to pellets only), Im not overly concerned he will "fill up" on millet for now so he can fatten up but after he gains a few grams Ill be going back to millet as a training tool, unless this isnt the right way to go about getting him to gain weight? Im worried without the AB-LIB millet he'll not gain anything

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Budgies are such amazing little creatures! So underrated..they have tons of love to give,are so clownish and I just adore their chattering! Sounds like your little guy is well on the mend. You did everything right!!




Jim

 

[skeetkeet]

Budgies are such amazing little creatures! So underrated..they have tons of love to give,are so clownish and I just adore their chattering! Sounds like your little guy is well on the mend. You did everything right!!




Jim

agreed <333