Urgent - Picking at feet

[katie_fleming]

Thank you. Yes, I've always been very sensitive about giving him pellets, hence why he's only on 1tbsp right now. Before it was 1tsp and my vet encouraged to increase his pellets b/c his calcium was low and I think one or two other things.

He's been on 1 tbsp a day for months and months now without any problems. But I discontinued them yesterday and I won't give any for 3 weeks to see what happens.

I'm so frustrated tonight. His wing flipping persists...2.5 weeks now. And every night his toe tapping seems to re-appear for some reason. It's very mild.

He's on his meds another 3 weeks. Trying to decide if I should bring him back in now or wait until he's nearing the end of the 4th week.

I plan on bringing him to the vet that's an hour away - the emerg one first. It's the University here for Avian/other vets. I'd like them to see his xrays and have a second opinion from at the same time. I talked with the vet tech on the phone yesterday and she suggested waiting until the end of his treatment...

But this damn wing flipping and toe tapping..........so frustrated.

 

[tashawithanekkie]

I'm so sorry you're going through all this. I hope you find an answer soon. It's clear that you love Jasper so much. Your determination is wonderful.

 

[plumsmum2005]

Hi Katie did anything really get concluded with Jasper's tongue episode?

Candida diseases can influence your parrot, and include an abundance of yeasts that are typically found in a bird’s digestive framework. Basic indications of Candida contamination incorporate white sores in and around the mouth and throat, regurgitating and craving loss and a yield that is moderate to exhaust. Most Candida contamination are effectively treated utilizing anti-fungal medicines.

Is it possible to have him tested for Candida? Wondering if it has any bearing on the latest developments? Obviously you will want to speak to your CAV. Sorry to suggest more tests for your little man but if it yields answers. Certainly would be helpful if it is masking and therefore may make the picture clearer.

FYI https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/candida-infections-in-birds

Surprised re the AV suggested additional pellets, personally I would be unsure of this move. What else was Jasper low on?

Hugs to you both.

 

[Birdman666]

Part of the toe tap disorder...

It's a neurological problem. The feet get that "pins and needles" sensation. They've been known to chew off their own toes when it happens.

CHECK THE DIET. THESE ARE USUALLY RELATED TO DIET. WHAT DID YOU FEED HIM THAT WAS DIFFERENT?!

Eckies and pellets don't mix. Corn can set them off...

The best thing to do with an eckie that gets toe tap is to keep a food diary. Write down everything you feed him, even snacks. That way, if he suddenly starts toe tap... AHAH! TOO MUCH CORN. WE INCREASED HIS PELLETS. He had...

And then you just discontinue that. That's the secret with Eckies. They are very diet sensitive birds...

 

[katie_fleming]

Hi Katie did anything really get concluded with Jasper's tongue episode?

Candida diseases can influence your parrot...

Thanks for your reply Nothing has been concluded yet. He's on all of his meds for another 3 weeks and I'm going to bring him in just before they're finished for his next checkup. I'm trying to decide which tests to do. I also am waiting on a second opinion about his xray b/c I'm not totally convinced his proventriculus was bigger than before. Not sure if I should do a blood test or what. I feel so lost I sent the info about Candida to my vet, thank you for letting me know about this. She found very few traces of yeast in his fecal test so who knows if it moved from his abscess to his proventriculus. One of the meds he's on is a anti-fungal.

Part of the toe tap disorder...

I kept a diary for 3 months once of what Jasper ate and I was never able to pinpoint anything.

I make up 3 different types of dinners for him. They all have ~8-10 ingredients in them. He eats the same dinner for about 3 days in a row, then I rotate to the 2nd type, 3rd type, etc. Now that you've mentioned corn I need to check if that might be in all of them......there was one ingredient I couldn't get when I did his last batch so I *might* have put corn in all 3. I will check tonight.

His breakfast is made weekly so he gets the same thing for 7 days then I make him an entirely new one for the following week. ~6 ingredients each time.

It was discovered some time ago that Jasper has no papillae left. They think it was from poor nutrition (even though I've made his food from day 1 and he gets an excellent variety) which is why they encouraged me to start up his pellets again. So I called my breeder since Harrison's was def a no-go and she told me she gives her Ekkies Roudybush. So that's what I've been giving him. Like I mentioned 1tsp a day then increased to 1tbsp from my vet's recommendation. Was on it for maaaaany months like this without any problem.

But since it's a known issue with them that's why I've stopped them now for 3 weeks to see. But it's strange since he was on them for so long without any incident.

 

[OutlawedSpirit]

Hi Katie did anything really get concluded with Jasper's tongue episode?

Candida diseases can influence your parrot...

Thanks for your reply Nothing has been concluded yet. He's on all of his meds for another 3 weeks and I'm going to bring him in just before they're finished for his next checkup. I'm trying to decide which tests to do. I also am waiting on a second opinion about his xray b/c I'm not totally convinced his proventriculus was bigger than before. Not sure if I should do a blood test or what. I feel so lost I sent the info about Candida to my vet, thank you for letting me know about this. She found very few traces of yeast in his fecal test so who knows if it moved from his abscess to his proventriculus. One of the meds he's on is a anti-fungal.

Part of the toe tap disorder...

I kept a diary for 3 months once of what Jasper ate and I was never able to pinpoint anything.

I make up 3 different types of dinners for him. They all have ~8-10 ingredients in them. He eats the same dinner for about 3 days in a row, then I rotate to the 2nd type, 3rd type, etc. Now that you've mentioned corn I need to check if that might be in all of them......there was one ingredient I couldn't get when I did his last batch so I *might* have put corn in all 3. I will check tonight.

His breakfast is made weekly so he gets the same thing for 7 days then I make him an entirely new one for the following week. ~6 ingredients each time.

It was discovered some time ago that Jasper has no papillae left. They think it was from poor nutrition (even though I've made his food from day 1 and he gets an excellent variety) which is why they encouraged me to start up his pellets again. So I called my breeder since Harrison's was def a no-go and she told me she gives her Ekkies Roudybush. So that's what I've been giving him. Like I mentioned 1tsp a day then increased to 1tbsp from my vet's recommendation. Was on it for maaaaany months like this without any problem.

But since it's a known issue with them that's why I've stopped them now for 3 weeks to see. But it's strange since he was on them for so long without any incident.

Katie, when I give my ekkies pellets, I feed Roudybush as well. I have never had a problem with toe tapping or wing flipping from the pellets even though I've had a lot of problems with toe tapping from fresh foods with Tiki.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[plumsmum2005]

Thank you. Yes, I've always been very sensitive about giving him pellets, hence why he's only on 1tbsp right now. Before it was 1tsp and my vet encouraged to increase his pellets b/c his calcium was low and I think one or two other things.

But this damn wing flipping and toe tapping..........so frustrated.

Katie please read this

BirdsnWays - Toe Tapping In Eclectus - Eclectus Forum March 1998

 

[Anansi]

Katie, how are Jasper's calcium levels currently?

That was an interesting article, K, though some of the info reflects the knowledge of the time (such as what she thought comprised a good diet for an eclectus and her wish to use Harrison's pellets for her ekkie.)

I also wonder if the ekkie in that article was indeed suffering those symptoms due to calcium deficiency. Due to the intermittent nature of the symptoms as displayed by her bird (as well as by Maya and Jasper), it's possible it might have been a matter of timing. The article was from '98, and the new info that allowed me to help Maya is quite recent.

 

[Kentuckienne]

I'm just popping in to say I'm following the thread and cheering for you both. As Birdman says, might not hurt to take the corn and pellets out of the diet to see if it makes a difference. I have a friend who went through a difficult time where she was having a reaction to something in her diet, and she did the same thing - kept a food diary which didn't help. So she just started eating brown rice and water! After a few days she began feeling better, so she added foods back in one at a time. Turned out she couldn't eat onions in any form, cooked or raw, could eat cooked garlic but not raw, and couldn't eat mangoes. Mangoes! She kept all those things out of her diet for many years, but over time - we're both old - she's been able to resume with the onions if cooked. Maybe the varieties changed? I know ekkies need variety, but would it be ok to put Jasper on a more restricted diet for just a short time, only the things you are sure don't aggravate the toe tapping, see if it helps? Then slowly add back one food at a time?

What is it with the pellets and eclectus? Is it that the pellets are made of many different foodstuffs mixed together, and one batch might contain more of a particular trigger food? Is that why some brands of pellets seem to cause more problems, depending on the bird?

Sending you both big hugs, and hoping for things to turn in s good direction.

 

[Anansi]

...What is it with the pellets and eclectus? Is it that the pellets are made of many different foodstuffs mixed together, and one batch might contain more of a particular trigger food? Is that why some brands of pellets seem to cause more problems, depending on the bird?...

Eclectus parrots have digestive tracts that are more efficient (or at least more thorough) at extracting the necessary nutrients from the foods that they eat. So an ekkie will basically get more nutrition out of a given meal than most other parrots. A great adaptation out in the wild, but not so much in a home when given processed foods that have been specially enriched with added vitamins and such. Because whereas the supplementary nutrition would be great for your average macaw, amazon, 'too or grey, it winds up as an overdose for an ekkie.

Another problem is that a lot of them have corn content, and some ekkies are sensitive to corn in their diets. For some, it's simply a matter of moderation. For others, even a little is too much.

And finally, ekkies are prone to dietary sensitivities in general. So nutrient-dense pellets are far more likely to trigger one of their sensitivity issues than a given fresh food meal. Not that a fresh food sensitivity can't happen either. Jolly, for instance, turns out to have an issue if you combine blueberries AND raspberries or blackberries. Gives him toe-tapping and wing-flipping something fierce. So difficult to see them going through that level of discomfort, so I can really understand why poor Katie is so distressed.

Some people have had success giving their ekkies organic pellets and such. I reckon this works because, like with humans, some ekkies are probably less sensitive than others. And obviously, a pellet that is less enriched has less of a chance of triggering a vitamin overdose.

 

[Uglow]

Just catching up. So sorry you and Jasper are going through this. I can't imagine. I don't really have any pertinent experience to share except that uglow's toe tapping was due to not enough calcium in his chemistry. I hope it gets sorted out soon for you guys and you can get back to a sense of normalcy.

 

[katie_fleming]

I will check his last blood work results when I'm home from work, I forget what they were.

I'm bringing Jasper back to his regular vet on the 5th for his checkup. Unfortunately with Thanksgiving I'm having to bring him earlier than the 4 week mark but he needs to be in before his meds run out.

I'm trying to decide which tests to do. I'm hesitant to redo his xray before I get a 2nd/3rd opinion on the first ones (I'll be getting the CD with them this week). We didn't do any blood work last time. Should I get a full panel done again? I've decided not to do the ABV test since it's not reliable. Not really sure what other tests to do. A crop wash/fecal test I will pass on since they were both clear a few weeks ago.

Yesterday was Jasper's best day yet. Hardly any wing flipping! He also got spoiled with some new toys this weekend and he squealed when he saw all of them. Absolutely precious.

 

[katie_fleming]

Guys. I just got home. Jasper is wing flipping, toe tapping, and looks like hes been at his feet again. Looks like the same areas on his feet as before.

I don't know what to do. Yesterday was his best day.

 

[Anansi]

Which nerve pain medication is he on? Same as the one I gave Maya? Gabapentin? If not, you may want to try that one if your vet agrees. The results with Maya were gradual, but definitive. And there was no back-sliding.

As for the x-ray, I see no reason for another unless a vet specifically requests one. There's just no point to it so soon after the last one.

Blood panel might be good to follow up on his calcium levels, though.

I'm sorry he had another bad day, Katie.

 

[katie_fleming]

Yes, he is on Gabapentin twice a day. I called his vet (thankfully she called me back) and she told me it's not uncommon for him to have a bad day. That it's not always going to be a linear improvement. She also pointed out that Gabapentin takes up to 3 weeks for it to be fully in his system. I asked about bringing him in if anything gets worse and she said the only thing that she can do right now is put his cone back on.

Feeling defeated yet again. He was doing so well.

 

[Anansi]

You're not defeated, Katie. Not at all. It's a setback, nothing more. And this isn't the first time I'm hearing about how long it takes Gabapentin to be fully absorbed by the system. One of our members, Brittany, had mentioned from personal experience that it wouldn't offer any relief before 2 weeks.

And keep in mind why your vet said she wouldn't be able to do any more than provide a cone. If he has what Maya does, this is a flare-up. The anti-inflammatory and the nerve pain meds are drugs that help him through it. But the flare-up will eventually recede. This isn't hopeless, Katie. There is an endpoint to this. You and Jasper just have to hold it together until he can ride through it.

Maya's been her old self for over a year and a half since that last episode. I have faith Jasper will do every bit as well.

 

[katie_fleming]

Thank you for saying that. I'm sitting here in tears. I just want him to get better and I'm so frustrated

I did some more Googling and came across another parrot forum where someone else's Eclectus had the same issues. Got me thinking about his diet again and maybe that is causing him grief as well. I will go find my paper of what's in his dinners and share. Maybe I'm giving him too much of something without knowing?

 

[Anansi]

Sure thing, Katie. Can't hurt to go over everything.

 

[katie_fleming]

Dinner #1
Chick peas
Lentils
Brown rice
Green beans
Peas
Carrots
Bell pepper
Zucchini
Banana

Dinner #2
Navy beans
Yellow/green split peas
Red beans
Radish
Sweet potato
Bell pepper
Asparagus
Broccoli
Apple
Brussels sprouts

Dinner #3
Quinoa
Pinto beans
Vegetable pasta
Corn
Bell pepper
Squash
Pear
Celery
Turnip
Yellow/Green split peas


So he eats the same dinner ~3 days in a row before he gets a different one.

His breakfast every week includes ~6 of the following:

Corn
Bell pepper/hot pepper
Sweet potato
Turnip
Squash
Celery
Zucchini
Green/yellow beans
Radish
Carrots
Asparagus (rare)

I add 1 type of fruit in the morning with his breakfast and a different one at night.

Every time I make up a new batch of dinners I also switch the combinations of the above around just so they don't feel the same to him.

His last calcium level was 1.83 mmol/L (they say normal range is 2.02-2.98)
His monocytes were 10% which they marked as high.
Protein was low at 30 g/L (normal range 32-42)
Albumin was at the lower limit 12 g/L (12-22 normal)
Bile acids low 13 umol/L (30-110 normal)

He also has a fierce amount of feathers at the bottom of his cage tonight. None are chewed. His molt had slowed right down but today it's back again.

 

[Kentuckienne]

I took gabapentin for a while...aka neurontin ...which I called morontin because it affected my brain until I got used to it. And it did take a while to kick in, and didn't help much when it did. Before that I was on celebrex, and only switched because the celebrex had stopped working. Turns out the reason it stopped working is I needed a hip replacement and no drug would have worked, so the morontin was a waste of time. What does your vet think of celebrex? That stuff works instantly.