Whats going on!!!!

[wildheart]

I've been trying to respond to this but my broken English is really failing me here - so please bear with me.

1. It's not true that birds will lose their 'pet' bond when they get a mate of their own. Practically all my birds are in pairs and they are as affectionate with me as they ever were -even the ones that were breeding pairs.

Since the 12th of July 2010 I've been reading hundreds of articles, parrot books, forums and websites because you suggested that I must get another parrot. I can say 100% that I have only found the contrary of your statement. Your parrot has to break the bond with you to bond with another. If it does happen that your parrot remains bonded to you then it simply means that she or he did not accept the new mate.

4. As to birds ending up in rescue because they were added as a companion to the original bird, I have about 100 birds, all rescues and none of them came to me because of this reason.

I already have a problem with too many seeking/ demanding my attention and I am literally splitting myself in 4 because nobody in my house will be neglected. If I did follow your advice and simply bought another parrot as a companion for my bird and she rejected him then I would have had an unwanted parrot in my house. I would have contributed to my problem and I would have split myself in 5, BUT, very few people are like me. The next person will simply neglect the new parrot and it will end up at a rescue. So yes, many birds are definitely in rescues because they were neglected because they were not accepted.

2. Adding a bird because your bird needs a companion should actually be standard procedure for all bird guardians for the simple reason that social birds (and all parrots are highly social birds) are healthier and happier when they have them. Mind you, this is not my personal opinion, it's what nature ordained.

Nature ordained that birds and all other animals must be free! You cannot enforce nature on the one hand but go against it on the other! There are different types of people: 1. Most people own a parrot as a companion to themselves - a very deep friendship. 2. - People like you simply care for parrots or breed with them but do not seek their friendship and companionship and leave that part to another bird. The first type of owner only has as many parrots as what they have time for and if you only have time for one then so be it. Proof to me your statement that a bird that has a bird friend is happier and healthier than a bird that has a human as a companion.

5. Re:your budgie who prefers a mirror instead of a real mate, well... even you must realize that this is not normal. I am not saying it's your fault, mind you, but it's still not normal. It's like a man preferring an inflatable doll instead of a real woman - I am sure there are men out there like this but I think we will all agree that this is not the way it should be.

It doesn't really do for a happy life for them because they cannot ever get true satisfaction. You cannot have sex with her, you cannot make babies with her, you cannot follow the rituals and behaviors of mating, you cannot sleep with her, etc.

This is where my English really fails me and where I've been wanting to answer for a looooong time.

Birds do not have sex - they reproduce! Humans are the only species that have sex for pleasure and no other species requires it. Your posts imply that birds need sexual stimulation and do it for enjoyment! All other species are driven by the need to reproduce - to have offspring, that is nature and they act upon it. They do NOT want to have sex! If you are not a breeder with qualifications then you are nothing but irresponsible to allow reproduction! It is in my opinion far crueler to take away their offspring than what it is to prevent them from reproducing. Every time that you take the eggs or the chicks the parents suffer a loss and have to work again to reproduce – explain the satisfaction in that!

Let me put it in different words that might be clearer. Nature drives them to have offspring and to care for their offspring. You take their offspring from them - you are a predator, you are cruel and you destroy the only satisfaction that they ever wanted. They do not have sex, they have no desire to have sex and sex will NEVER satisfy them.

 

[Mel]

Humans are the only species that have sex for pleasure and no other species requires it.

I think you did very well with your English Interesting fact - Dolphins have sex for pleasure - I think they are the only non-human species that does.

 

[Bobby34231]

Problem with "Broken English"?, I dont know, seems pretty concise and to the point to me :11:

 

[Auggie's Dad]

I work with a lot of psychologists. I should ask whether it is common for someone to project their own sexual frustrations onto animals and assume that a happy animal must in fact be sexually frustrated and miserable.

 

[antoinette]

Wildheart your English is fantastic, for an Afrikaans speaking person
"High Five"
You hit the nail on the head "bulls eye" :1218:

 

[wildheart]

Humans are the only species that have sex for pleasure and no other species requires it.

I think you did very well with your English Interesting fact - Dolphins have sex for pleasure - I think they are the only non-human species that does.

Last night it came to me that primates also have sex for pleasure - but most animals and ALL birds do it only to reproduce.

Lets look at the magnificent Fish Eagle - my most loved bird of pray. They mate for life with only ONE partner. If one of them dies then the other never forms another bond and according to studies they die soon after. This bird does not have sex with its partner! They proof their commitment and bond to each other by hunting / foraging for food and then bringing it too each other to share. They also protect each other and keep each other company by calling each other. I hear them calling through out the day - there is no sound more beautiful than the fish eagle call! These birds only have 'sex' when it is the right season and they want to reproduce. The 'sex' immediately stop the moment that the female lay her eggs.

Just to give you an idea of the size of this bird, they pick up ducks and flamingos as if it is nothing and then fly off while holding the pray with one foot.

Here are some of their calls - I shiver and get tears in my eyes every single time that I hear them, no matter how many times it is in one day!

This clip shows a female calling for her partner, she calls and calls until he answer: Please listen to it, I am sure you will also feel the shivers like I do.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC26ZcO_z-o"]YouTube - ‪Fish Eagle Calling at NK 08/11/08‬‎[/ame]

They are together here:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbzx2Qy_g8k"]YouTube - ‪African Fish Eagle calling at Nkorho‬‎[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAvESaBt7r4"]YouTube - ‪Two African fish eagles calling‬‎[/ame]

Now, if birds did have sex for pleasure then I think the Fish Eagles would have been at it all the time because of their love and commitment towards each other.

 

[brookysmom]

Sorry been spending more time with Pancho the new Amazon
he is allowing me to rub his head and goes to sleep while I do it I am guessing he ois not thinking us woman are all that bad after all
As far as the Budgie True it is Not healthy and I prefer he not even have a mirror they were the worse ok one of the worse cause there are some gosh awful things out here that are sold for birds that they should NEVER have and Mirrors are one.

He came with a cage and about 4 of them The owner thought it made him happier actually he is a Basket case thanks to them
I have managed to get it down to one
When he comes out and this bird is my ONLY flighted bird (I lost two to walls and I will never allow full flight again) Anyway he will actually go Hunt the mirrors down in my home and KNOWS where they are
We are talking NUTTY bird but he is who he is and i love him all the same
i tried to allow him to have a friend he wants Nothing to do with them though he does play in and out of the parrotlet babies cage when i have a babies which is seldom with the economy as it is.


The part about rescue is that When you tell someone Oh your bird can never ever be happy with Just YOU what you Must do it go get another well that is just nuts
what if that person can not afford not do they have time or space etc etc what if they go through all the easy intro and all that and the birds still hate one another so what do they do now go get two to be companions with those two??
NO
they could have Nipped it in the bid at the start by offering that bird they started with more Quality time
As far as the whole sexual release hormones etc
i mean come on every living being sadly falls to Hormones mine sure made me do dumb things at one time
But Just because a bird "feeds" a chosen object or person is NO reason to get it a companion

we will just have to agree to disagree i guess


Wildheart I think you did a very good job

 

[Spiritbird]

QUOTE from a previous post here:
"Adding a bird because your bird needs a companion should actually be standard procedure for all bird guardians for the simple reason that social birds (and all parrots are highly social birds) are healthier and happier when they have them. Mind you, this is not my personal opinion, it's what nature ordained."

How can a human state It's what nature ordained??
I thought this was up to our creator??

 

[Birdamor]

I've been trying to respond to this but my broken English is really failing me here - so please bear with me.

1. It's not true that birds will lose their 'pet' bond when they get a mate of their own. Practically all my birds are in pairs and they are as affectionate with me as they ever were -even the ones that were breeding pairs.

Since the 12th of July 2010 I've been reading hundreds of articles, parrot books, forums and websites because you suggested that I must get another parrot. I can say 100% that I have only found the contrary of your statement. Your parrot has to break the bond with you to bond with another. If it does happen that your parrot remains bonded to you then it simply means that she or he did not accept the new mate.

Birds have different kinds of bonds. They bond with mates, with preferred companions and with the other birds in the flock. They are all bonds but they are not the same in nature. A bird can have a loving bond with a human and still have a mate, the same that they can have a mate, a best friend and lots of other friends and acquaintances in the other birds in the flock. Birds have all kinds of relationships. I have a male lovebird who has two wives and a female lovebird who had two husbands. I have a bonded pair of tiels where the male has this very close male friend, they always forage together, take naps together and everything. Out of over twenty budgies, there are only two pairs that nest but both females have two or three males that feed them when they are nesting. These different relationships are easily discernable when you have birds in flock but they never happen when you have one or a few birds all in separate cages. And I think it's fabulous that you have been doing research but maybe you are not accessing the right sources. Birdsites have gotten much better in the last five years or so but they are still not the most reliable source of information when it comes to diets, behavior, flock dynamics, etc.

4. As to birds ending up in rescue because they were added as a companion to the original bird, I have about 100 birds, all rescues and none of them came to me because of this reason.

I already have a problem with too many seeking/ demanding my attention and I am literally splitting myself in 4 because nobody in my house will be neglected. If I did follow your advice and simply bought another parrot as a companion for my bird and she rejected him then I would have had an unwanted parrot in my house. I would have contributed to my problem and I would have split myself in 5, BUT, very few people are like me. The next person will simply neglect the new parrot and it will end up at a rescue. So yes, many birds are definitely in rescues because they were neglected because they were not accepted.

Actually and thankfully, there is an increasing number of people like you - and a huge number of birds that end up in rescue had loving owners once upon a time. But, going to the gist of the matter, if your birds were paired up, you would not have to split yourself in four or five or anything. Nature did not create social birds to bond with humans, she created them to bond with their own species.



Nature ordained that birds and all other animals must be free! You cannot enforce nature on the one hand but go against it on the other! There are different types of people: 1. Most people own a parrot as a companion to themselves - a very deep friendship. 2. - People like you simply care for parrots or breed with them but do not seek their friendship and companionship and leave that part to another bird. The first type of owner only has as many parrots as what they have time for and if you only have time for one then so be it. Proof to me your statement that a bird that has a bird friend is happier and healthier than a bird that has a human as a companion.

IMPO, you are wrong. I think that most people who own birds do it for their own benefit and not the bird's. As to 'people like me': I do not own birds and I am not a breeder, I am a full time animal rescuer who runs a dog and cat shelter and has a sanctuary for birds that are not pet material. And I agree 100% that birds should all be free but, unfortunately, we trick them into imprinting to humans and deprive them of the education they need to survive in the wild so they cannot be released. Furthermore, there is a percentage of birds that will not resign themselves to been pets and cannot be rehomed but somebody still needs to care for them -that's where I come in. And I do give them my friendship and my love but I have no illusions as to how good a companion I can be! I know no human can replace a mate and that's why I always try for my birds to have their own mates or, at least, a beloved companion. Because I do love them and I want them to be happy! And if you think that a parrot that has a true 24/7/365 bonded mate is not happier than one that has just a human for part-time inadequate attention, you need to do more in-depth research about monogamous species.

5. Re:your budgie who prefers a mirror instead of a real mate, well... even you must realize that this is not normal. I am not saying it's your fault, mind you, but it's still not normal. It's like a man preferring an inflatable doll instead of a real woman - I am sure there are men out there like this but I think we will all agree that this is not the way it should be.[/quote]

It doesn't really do for a happy life for them because they cannot ever get true satisfaction. You cannot have sex with her, you cannot make babies with her, you cannot follow the rituals and behaviors of mating, you cannot sleep with her, etc.

This is where my English really fails me and where I've been wanting to answer for a looooong time.

Birds do not have sex - they reproduce! Humans are the only species that have sex for pleasure and no other species requires it. Your posts imply that birds need sexual stimulation and do it for enjoyment! All other species are driven by the need to reproduce - to have offspring, that is nature and they act upon it. They do NOT want to have sex! If you are not a breeder with qualifications then you are nothing but irresponsible to allow reproduction! It is in my opinion far crueler to take away their offspring than what it is to prevent them from reproducing. Every time that you take the eggs or the chicks the parents suffer a loss and have to work again to reproduce – explain the satisfaction in that!

Let me put it in different words that might be clearer. Nature drives them to have offspring and to care for their offspring. You take their offspring from them - you are a predator, you are cruel and you destroy the only satisfaction that they ever wanted. They do not have sex, they have no desire to have sex and sex will NEVER satisfy them.[/QUOTE]

My dear, I don't know where you got your information from but birds do have sex. It doesn't matter that for most species of birds there is no coitus or penetration, it's still sex and they still want it. You are looking at this from a human point of view but the lack of penetration doesn't mean anything to a frog, a fish, most species of birds and myriad other species that reproduce without it. Sex, in whatever form it takes, is always pleasurable and satisfying because Nature made it that way. If she hadn't, there would be no reproduction. Birds don't have sex because they know they need it in order to have babies, they have it because their gonads are enlarged and producing sexual hormones by the buckets which makes them horny (excuse the vulgarity) and because they get pleasure and relief out of the act - and anybody who has seen parrots masturbating can attest to this! And I don't allow reproduction, there are no babies born in my birdroom so there are no eggs or babies 'cruelly taken away by a human predator'. Like I said before, I am not a breeder. I am not even an owner, I am a full time animal rescuer and I believe in birds been birds and living like birds as much as this is possible within the deplorable circumstances of captivity.

 

[Birdamor]

QUOTE from a previous post here:
"Adding a bird because your bird needs a companion should actually be standard procedure for all bird guardians for the simple reason that social birds (and all parrots are highly social birds) are healthier and happier when they have them. Mind you, this is not my personal opinion, it's what nature ordained."

How can a human state It's what nature ordained??
I thought this was up to our creator??

LOL - Are we going to argue about religion, too? Call it the creator, call it God, call it Mother Earth, call it Gaia, call it nature, call it whatever you choose but it is what it is. Parrots are highly social, monogamous species and they are happier when living under the conditions that they evolved (or were created by God) to live under.

 

[Spiritbird]

This thread does not even make sense anymore. I have sent a request to the forum god to stop this nonsense.

 

[Auggie's Dad]

I often find great pleasure in the observation that it is the most ignorant who are most sure of themselves.

Unfortunately this pleasure is tempered by the fact that other observers may not recognize the ignorance, but take the confidence of the presentation as a sign that what is being presented is true.



" Parrots are highly social, monogamous species and they are happier when living under the conditions that they evolved (or were created by God) to live under. "

If it has been unclear, this forum is for people who have parrots. If you object to the practice of building a loving and trusting relationship with another species merely because it has not been so decreed by god (not very good theology to think this) or because it is not natural or scientific to do so (not very good science to think this and succumb to the naturalistic fallacy) - if you so object, I do not see why you would be a member of this forum. If you wish to voice your concerns about keeping parrots in 'captivity' you may start your own thread, but interrupting others to spread your often-dubious information and vile cynicism does not have a place here.

Don't make me cast anyone out of my garden!

 

[Birdamor]

I work with a lot of psychologists. I should ask whether it is common for someone to project their own sexual frustrations onto animals and assume that a happy animal must in fact be sexually frustrated and miserable.

Ahhh, but then, you work with human psychologists, not with ornithologists or avian vets. And the reproductive system of a human and his or hers sexual needs or frustrations are not at all like a bird's. Humans (and some species of apes and dolphins) have sex not only to reproduce but also for entertainment. They, basically, can choose to have sex. But most animals cannot. If they are in estrus or breeding condition or season or heat or whatever it's called for that particular species, they want to have sex and if they don't have it, they become secually frustrated and miserable. And this is no assumption, there are actual physical changes and even pain involved (males urinate blood from gonads that have becomed too enlarged and I know of one which required surgery to correct the problem -a male senegal). Mind you, sexual frustration in birds is not a normal seasonal thing. It doesn't happen in the wild, only in captivity and only to birds that are kept to a human light schedule. Because birds that are kept attuned to the seasons never develop these abnormal behaviors -their gonads are never that hugely enlarged. It's only birds that are not kept to a solar schedule and are made to produce sexual hormones all year round, year after year, that get like that.

 

[Auggie's Dad]

Ahhh, but then, you work with human psychologists, not with ornithologists or avian vets.

Oh the sweet irony.

Birdamor, the psychologists I was referring to are on the other end of campus - I interact with them regularly, but I am not a psychologist, I am an animal behaviorist. I am in an ornithology lab pursuing a PhD in neurscience and animal behavior focusing primarily on avian behavior.

I often work with veterinarians as they seek my advice on behavioral issues for their clients.

Perhaps you could tone down your presumption and arrogance lest you make yourself look like more of a fool.

 

[Birdamor]

Ahhh, but then, you work with human psychologists, not with ornithologists or avian vets.

Oh the sweet irony.

Birdamor, the psychologists I was referring to are on the other end of campus - I interact with them regularly, but I am not a psychologist, I am an animal behaviorist. I am in an ornithology lab pursuing a PhD in neurscience and animal behavior focusing primarily on avian behavior.

I often work with veterinarians as they seek my advice on behavioral issues for their clients.

Perhaps you could tone down your presumption and arrogance lest you make yourself look like more of a fool.

Well, butter my butt and call me a biscuit! Then I am even more confused about your postings. Because it means that you know human and avian sexuality is apples to oranges and that captive birds kept under less than ideal circumstances can and do get sexually frustrated, that this condition can be physically painful and emotionally crippling and cannot be diminished or eliminated by the bird establishing a bond with a human so I really don't understand your original answer to the OP or your comment about the comparison. I don't know if that makes me arrogant, presumptuous or a fool but there you have it.

 

[Birdamor]

I often find great pleasure in the observation that it is the most ignorant who are most sure of themselves.

Unfortunately this pleasure is tempered by the fact that other observers may not recognize the ignorance, but take the confidence of the presentation as a sign that what is being presented is true.



" Parrots are highly social, monogamous species and they are happier when living under the conditions that they evolved (or were created by God) to live under. "

If it has been unclear, this forum is for people who have parrots. If you object to the practice of building a loving and trusting relationship with another species merely because it has not been so decreed by god (not very good theology to think this) or because it is not natural or scientific to do so (not very good science to think this and succumb to the naturalistic fallacy) - if you so object, I do not see why you would be a member of this forum. If you wish to voice your concerns about keeping parrots in 'captivity' you may start your own thread, but interrupting others to spread your often-dubious information and vile cynicism does not have a place here.

Don't make me cast anyone out of my garden!

I am confused. The statement had nothing to do with my personal concerns or belief on whether people should keep pet parrots or not. It had to do with making things easier for a bird who is trying to woo a toy into mating -something I think we will all agree it's not conducive to his happiness because he will never be able to do it.

If parrots don't do better living under the conditions they were created to live under why do we bother to give them a varied diet and special lights and supplements and foraging toys and natural perches and roomy cages and birdrooms and all the other stuff we buy and do for pet parrots trying to emulate the natural conditions they have in the wild or compensate for their lack? Isn't it because we know they need the things they were created to have to live happier and healthier lives? How is that not good advice for people who have parrots? And how does that translate into vile cynicism, fallacious science or not good theology?

 

[Birdamor]

This thread does not even make sense anymore. I have sent a request to the forum god to stop this nonsense.

I agree 100%. I love a good debate but personal attacks without arguments take us nowhere. Personally, I am done with it.

 

[Auggie's Dad]

Good riddance.

Sorry if I was late taking out the trash - but due to my personal beefs with this individual I was hesitant to act until other members spoke out against him/her as I aim to avoid any bias or personal prejudice.

I also should apologize for engaging him/her in such ways - it was not the best way to handle the situation but I could not sit by and let people take that person's views too seriously.

 

[antoinette]

Good riddance.

Sorry if I was late taking out the trash - but due to my personal beefs with this individual I was hesitant to act until other members spoke out against him/her as I aim to avoid any bias or personal prejudice.

I also should apologize for engaging him/her in such ways - it was not the best way to handle the situation but I could not sit by and let people take that person's views too seriously.

Remind me not to employ you as a garbage removal guy LoL

Like our birds, you were patient, you persevered, took more than your fair share THEN YOU TOOK ACTION

You had to take the trash out eventually

 

[Spiritbird]

We are all done with it now. Thanks to AD and my hats off to you for the way this was handled. Good job everyone involved.!! Personally, I am celebrating.

If anyone has questions please feel free to ask any one of us.