White Front sleeping problem

[pomonabill221]

Hello all... just an update, although a little late.
I took Toots to get an Xray and there are no signs of any broken bones or arthritis.
Also looks like there isn't any cancer but the vet didn't seem to think that cancer would show up in the Xray... I would think it would since it would be a density change... but there doesn't seem to be any cancer either.
All this is a good thing but still doesn't explain the sleeping anomaly and to me, is frustrating.
The only thing the vet suggested is to increase the Meticam dose from 0.1 to 0.3-4 cc per day to hopefully give him some relief.... haven't seen much improvement though.
Another thing that came from the Xray... Toots IS a male.
So I am glad that it isn't broken bones/arthritis/cancer (I think), BUT I wish there was an answer!
I will post the Xrays (there are 2 views) if anyone is interested.

 

[SandyBee]

I would love to see an x-ray.

Good news that you haven't found anything, I think
Maybe the sleeping anomaly is just that if he seems healthy in every other way.
Good Luck

 

[JerseyWendy]

Oh I'd love to see the X-rays as well.

GREAT news about your baby!!!!

 

[Tonia]

This is a SUPER group of people!! Hope all turns out to be just fine with your Amazon! Sure do love mine!
~~Tonia

 

[pomonabill221]

Well thank you all for your interest!
I will get the Xray from my vet, probably early next week, and post them here for all to see and hopefully get more opinions.
I will try and get them sooner if I can though.
Thank You all for your help and thoughts!
It really pains me to see my guy seemingly having a hard time sleeping though....

 

[pomonabill221]

Well I bit the bullet and paid the $5 for the vet to give me a copy of the 2 xrays.
I have attached the converted dcom to jpgs for you.
It seems that parrotforums does some compression but I hope the files are good quality.
If not, I will post them on a photosharing website and post the link here.
Let me know.
Just a note... I think he has thrown up (or at least tried) a couple of times during the night that I have seen on the video, but there isn't anything on his "poop paper"... I will have to watch some more.
thanks
Bill

 

[JerseyWendy]

This is all really SUCH a mystery about Toots. Thank you for sharing the x-rays with us.

So he went through the regurgitation motion last night but nothing came up? Could he be nauseous from any of the medicine?

I truly wish your vet would/could find out what the cause for all this is. Poor Toots must be so tired from not being able to get sleep while tucked in.

You are certainly doing everything in your power to help him. I wish Toots a full recovery, whatever it is that's ailing him.

 

[pomonabill221]

Thank you JerseyWendy for your thoughts! I, too, am mystified and saddened because he isn't getting his rest.
Nothing that I saw came up and I haven't given him any meds for about a week as the time limit for the meds has been met.
I did give him a couple of Medicam doses, but that was three days ago, and didn't seem to make any difference, so I stopped. The vet had uped the does from .1 to .4 and told me to watch him for a reaction, but I don't think his regurg. was a reaction.
I also have noticed that he is standing on his right foot more and more,and seems to be stumbling a little when he has to use both feet.
I did read (somewhere) that this may be a sign of a cancer (don't remember the name) that affects the nerves and makes the left foot "lame", but I don't know if he DID have this caner , if it would have shown up in the Xray.... really puzzling and VERY frustrating!!!
I know there is an avian specialist a little ways from me, but maybe it would warrant a trip... probably pricey too and for someone unemployed and no income, ANYTHING is expensive, but I am loosing sleep and worrying ALOT about him!
I will call the vet Monday and see what she says and ask about the specialist....
This is AWFUL!!!! Poor baby!

 

[lpolliard]

Those x-rays are awesome. Thanks for going out of your way to post them for us.

I hope Toots gets better!

 

[pomonabill221]

Thank you lpolliard.
Another update....
Seems like his sleeping problem, and his general walking around is getting worse.
Whenever he isn't moving, his left foot is "retracted", and when he does try and walk, he is almost sliding or dragging his left foot and sort of shuffles.
When he is trying to sleep he is constantly slipping on his perch and "resetting" his grip, and is really trying to lie down on the perch but can't , so I am going to wrap a towel around the perch and make a "shelf" for him to lie on.
Then on Monday, I am going to update the vet as to what is going on.
I know the Xray doesn't show anything, and his last blood work doesn't have anything that pops out as being wrong, but my gut tells me that there is something serious going on, and it isn't improving.
I hate to give him the medicam if it doesn't do anything, but I may try a dose tonight and see if he can get any sleep.
I really wish I knew his age a little closer to what I think it is. I bought him on 1/23/87 from a bird store, so I have had him for 26 years, but I don't know how old he was when I got him.... Also don't know the life span of a White Front Amazon but I would think it should be around 60 years??? Just did a web search and it seems that 50 years is about the average, but there was a minimum of 20! so go figure!
He is an import so he may have something genetic that is showing it's ugly head.
This problem with sleeping at least, has been going on for several years in the form of leaning over to the point where it looks like he is going to topple over, but never has, so this condition is not new, it is just gotten worse.
Anyway... I will keep updates coming.
Thanks for all your concerns....
Bill

 

[pomonabill221]

Another quick addendum....
He doesn't seem to be throwing up like I thought, but his head goes below his perch and he opens his beak like he is trying to vomit.
The only thing missing is the "head pumping" so I don't think he is trying to vomit.
It may be something like he is trying to grab onto something to steady himself, but nothing is there so he is grabbing "air".... don't know.

 

[pomonabill221]

I was going through my bird records and on 4-2011 I had xrays done so I uploaded them here for comparison.
The xrays were done for the SAME problem, although not nearly as bad back then.
I tried to make the views similar to the views I have already posted, that is why the annotations are upside down and backwards.

 

[pomonabill221]

Another update....
Toots seems to have gotten a little worse.
Now when he "sleeps", he ends up almost draped across his perch leaning to his left.
This happens even during the day when he is trying to rest.

I have padded his perch to make it softer and easier to grip, but he is still getting used to this new thing in his cage, and is testing it out.
I also made a padded "porch" (platform) for him to stand, lie on, but he is still testing it out.

He is still eating and pooping great.
I did try the medicam, but it didn't seem to help (I thought I would see immediate results...is this true or do I need several days to see the effect?), and I don't want to stress him any more.
He is going in for blood work on Monday 7/22 to see if much has changed.

From all I have read ( and scared myself researching), it sounds like it might be ABV (bornavirus) which has no cure, or cancer which did not show in the xray.

I have some serious contemplating to do.... IF my vet cannot figure this out, and the bloodwork doesn't show anything drastic, and he continues to decline...
God forbid, I am considering euthanasia as I do NOT want to put him through more pain, more tests, more stress AND I MUST put my feelings and selfishness aside and think about Toots and HIS feelings.

This WILL be a VERY LONG and PAINFUL process and will NOT be a snap decision!!!
I LOVE Toots and have had him for 26 years so we have alot of history, but his feelings are what I must put first!

I would LOVE anyone else's opinion / thoughts / comments, even if nasty, because right now, I am half crazy with what is happening to him.
I even posted over on drexotic (dot) com run by Dr. Jenkins in the article "common exotic emergencies" to see if he has any ideas.

I will update when I get the blood work and what my vet thinks.

 

[SoCalWendy]

Wow. i read though this whole thread. My heart goes out to you. I cant even imagine what you are going through right now. You sound like a very compassionate person who loves their bird dearly, and you want what is best for him. You are doing the very best by him, and whatever you decide is your decision. No one can scold you for not wanting him to suffer. And shame on anyone who would try. You know your bird best. Whatever you decide, it will be for the best.

 

[henpecked]

I feel for ya Bill. We have a 38 yr hen Panama who has cancer,bad. It's every Thursday to the Vet, for the last 18 months. We've almost had her put down several times, so far i THINK we've made the right decisions but it's something we deal with every day. You won't find me passing judgement on what others should do with a suffering Fid.

 

[JerseyWendy]

I am SO sorry to hear that Toots isn't getting better but declining.

Please know that you are doing anything and everything for him. I will continue to hope for the best, but I'm with the Capt (henpecked) on this. I would NEVER pass judgment on you for doing what you feel is best for your beloved Toots.

Best wishes....and hugs!!!

 

[pomonabill221]

WOW... Thank You ALL for your thoughts!
I guess the most difficult thing for me is to realize that I am NOT the ONLY one that has a sick bird and has had to face a very difficult decision.
It just seems like it when "you" become so focused on a loved family "member", that "you" start to isolate yourself and don't realize that unfortunately, this is part of life and life's many "challenges" and VERY difficult decisions!

Like I stated... I will NOT make a hasty decision because that, in itself, could be a form of selfishness, and realize that this would be final... there ain't no turnin back!
BUT also, it may be the best for the bird as well.... WOW this is tough!

My TAG passed on her own because she was soooo very sick, but that was a bad decision on my part because of all the tests and prolonging that I did... once again I didn't have the bird in mind, but we loved each other so very much... I miss her so!

Both my TAG (Al) and White Front (Toots) are imports (Al I bought in 3/9/82 for 160, and Toots in 1/23/87 for 350), and from what I have read, the process of importing birds was AWFUL and really messed them up with the way they were kept/handled/fed/etc., and this fact alone could be why both my babies have had so many health issues, and the reason that I lost Al and (maybe, eventually) Toots, at a way to early life span.... we will never know for sure!

I am so glad that imports have stopped (at least the majority). I even feel bad about having my guys because they are really wild animals.

I still have my Yellow Naped and I believe she is bred in the U.S., I don't remember the particulars...

Once again, thank you all for your thoughts! It does make a difference!
I will keep updates coming (I will try to keep them SHORT! hehe).

Thanks.... Bill

 

[pomonabill221]

Wow. i read though this whole thread. My heart goes out to you. I cant even imagine what you are going through right now. You sound like a very compassionate person who loves their bird dearly, and you want what is best for him. You are doing the very best by him, and whatever you decide is your decision. No one can scold you for not wanting him to suffer. And shame on anyone who would try. You know your bird best. Whatever you decide, it will be for the best.

Thank you for your thoughts! I do love my guys tons! as most bird owners do!
I don't wish this kind of thing on anyone, but eventually everyone faces this kind of decision, and it is HARD, but I keep telling myself that this is part of life, and something that we all face, usually more than once, but it never gets any easier.
Thank You for your thoughts!
Bill

 

[pomonabill221]

I feel for ya Bill. We have a 38 yr hen Panama who has cancer,bad. It's every Thursday to the Vet, for the last 18 months. We've almost had her put down several times, so far i THINK we've made the right decisions but it's something we deal with every day. You won't find me passing judgement on what others should do with a suffering Fid.

WOW you have a challenge! AND it shows that you love her and am trying the best for her! I am sure that she knows you are doing the best for her and she appreciates your efforts and care.
That's dedication! I hope that she isn't in pain?
Have you had to make accommodations for her as far as her cage? I am trying to make Toots's cage more "comfortable" for him with padding (an old washcloth wrapped around the perch) and a "porch" (a platform bolted to the side of the cage with another washcloth as a pad).

Good luck to your Panama and take care of yourself as well!!!! We (I) sometimes forget that I need to eat/sleep/enjoy life as well!

Thanks.... Bill

 

[pomonabill221]

I am SO sorry to hear that Toots isn't getting better but declining.

Please know that you are doing anything and everything for him. I will continue to hope for the best, but I'm with the Capt (henpecked) on this. I would NEVER pass judgment on you for doing what you feel is best for your beloved Toots.

Best wishes....and hugs!!!

Thank You JerseyW for your thoughts! It is a tough decision, and I will NOT make it in haste, but will discuss this with my vet, and see how she feels about it.
Heck... I'm not there YET but I am trying to prepare for it as it may happen.
I just need more "unbiased" outside thoughts as I don't have any other bird friends, and unless you have or had birds, you really don't know how special they are!
Every pet is different, and people have different feelings about them, so getting an opinion from, say, a cat owner would be VERY different than a bird owner. (Heck, I don't like cats, so there ya go!)
Anyway... thanks for the hugs and thoughts! I'll keep this board updated on the progress.
Thank You ...Bill