Raven's vet visit... Interesting info about his "handicap"

For those who aren't familiar, Raven is my 14 month old Bronze Winged Pionus. He was shipped to me by a known reputable breeder from out of state in January. I'll give a brief as possible back story first, then what my vet said.

A couple weeks before I was due to get Raven shipped to me, he had an accident at his breeder's house. I want to make it clear that it was NOT the breeders fault. Raven was injured by a sibling. My breeder's story is that when Raven and his 3 siblings were scrambling around all excited to come out of the cage they were in, a sibling accidentally punctured a sharp toenail into Raven's right nare (nostril). This caused a tenacious bacterial infection. At the time of shipping, she believed the infection was gone. When I picked Raven up, and for the next couple days he didn't appear to have any symptoms. Then within a week, the sinus infection symptoms appeared again. Long story short, between the breeder's vet, my regular avian vet, and an avian specialist vet, and many treatments, the infection is gone, but still left residual problems to deal with..... For the rest of his life.

Today, it was time again to get Raven's "nose picked". In other words, have the dried junk in the sinus cavity left over from the old infection removed, as he's had to have done several times now.
Raven had a little bit of clear discharge only one part of one day last week, and ONLY ON THE DAMAGED SIDE. Then a few days later a tiny amount of already dried blood only on that side as well. I watched it closely and never happened after that.
Doctor explained that the infection is long gone, but that the reason for the slight clear substance out of only the damaged side, is because the damaged shape of his nare and the part you can't see behind it is tweaked to the degree that his sinuses aren't always going to function properly as far as draining goes. The blood only from the damaged side is because of the shape now (and it's a very vascular area) it can get torn easily if he should scratch it in a way that his toenail gets in there a little. Kind of like a human who gets nose bleeds (some people don't have them, some people get them often), Raven is now predisposed to having it happen easier. You can also hear his breathing a little more after exertion, more than a normal bird because of the damaged narrowed passageway through the sinus/nare area. He said if symptoms happen too often there is an outpatient surgery they can do. Otherwise, he's kind of like a guy who will walk with a limp for the rest of his life. Not a big deal, but I need to always be aware of it. At least now I know what the issues are here.

THE INTERESTING PART I thought, was as Dr. N was grooming Raven's beak, after he got the excess keratin layers off and it looked nice and clean, he said that original injury is from a BITE WOUND not a toenail. He said no way would a toenail cause this (scar on the beak that we saw) and his right nare is pretty misshapen too. He said siblings at that age can definitely do that. I'm thinking the breeder maybe didn't see exactly what happened, and she and her vet guessed it was a toenail. Who knows, but it doesn't matter now. Besides, after some conversations, she ended up reimbursing me half the money I paid her for Raven. I see she couldn't give him to me essentially 'free' unless I shipped him back, and that wasn't happening, so I think that was fair of her as a responsible, professional breeder.

My poor teenage "Scarface" LOL.

I don't know what it is, but when I first got my favorite "dream bird" species Bronze Winged Pionus in 2005.... She died. Now another Bronze Winged, and this happened. Perhaps just coincidence. I guess my little handicapped boy was meant to be with us.

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Oh... And in reference to my other thread in which Raven bit my face, doctor DID confirm that although Pionus aren't ready to breed until about 3, hormones do happen anytime after one year. He told me AGAIN today that Bronze Winged males are nasty . He doesn't see BW very often, but I guess from the ones he does see they're apparently ALL supercharged hormonally?!

Poor Raven, I've wondered what you were referring to in another post when you mentioned Raven had ongoing medical issues. He is so fortunate to have such a caring owner, I hate to imagine what his life would have been like otherwise. I know he was meant to be your bird. Now that the bacterial infection is completely gone, does his condition bother him constantly or periodically?

I'm guessing you're right about Raven's breeder, she probably didn't actually see the incident and thought it was a nail instead of a beak that did the damage. It was very professional of the breeder to return half his cost to you, IMHO. I'm sure you've already used far more on his vet bills, but still...

I am also so happy that Raven has you (and vice versa, of course!).
It is just so sad that something like this can happen when they are a baby that impacts them for the rest of their lives
He is just gorgeous, even with his scarred beak. He really hit the lottery when he came to be your boy.

Oh my! Your teenage boy sure has dealt with a lot in his life so far, and now he gets the joy of experiencing hormones, too! But thankfully he has you to look after him, and give him all the love of care he requires

And it's wonderful that Raven came from a very responsible breeder who recognized what happened and immediately did her best to take care of the issue for his sake and yours. Some breeders aren't so lovely, and it's hard to always make judgment calls when you can't meet them in person or see their facilities in person.

Thanks . Even though I'm glad Raven is here, yes, it is a shame that a freak accident injury had to happen to him so young and will affect him the rest of his life. I keep saying WHY ME??!!!

He always scratches at it and shakes his head. Now I have to wait about a week this time after his nostril heals from the last curetting yesterday and see if it makes him more comfortable. Doctor said he didn't really have much left over "junk" in there this time. He seems a little under the weather today (after being at the vet's yesterday) which is not usual and kind of concerning me. He also had full grooming including beak.

If he continues to shake and scratch for some reason (can't have him that miserable for that the rest of his life!) I'll have to take him back to pursue looking into it further as to what can be done. Ugh I don't need this added stress and expense, but for some reason (and I don't know why) it looks like it was meant to happen this way.

Raven is so fortunate to have an owner dedicated to ongoing medical care!!

Out of curiosity, did the DVM suggest the "outpatient surgery" would be considered curative? Is it some sort of reconstruction of the sinus cavity using an inert substance?

Scott said:

Raven is so fortunate to have an owner dedicated to ongoing medical care!!

Out of curiosity, did the DVM suggest the "outpatient surgery" would be considered curative? Is it some sort of reconstruction of the sinus cavity using an inert substance?

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Not so much reconstruction, as it sounded like creating scar tissue so the vascular area won't be so sensitive to bleeding. I didn't want to ask or discuss anything further because I've already done so much with Raven since January, that I didn't even want to think about "more". After this heals from the curetting, I'm thinking he'll probably shake his head and scratch like always.

I know I will most likely end up having to pursue this further, to get to the root of WHY he still scratches his nare and shakes his head. The vet did say that he will always have the labored breathing after exertion because of the narrowed nasal passageway.
The vet said his sinuses aren't working properly because of the damaged shape... Maybe it just feels uncomfortable. From what I gathered, the gist of what he said is that it's just damaged and not working right, and will always be that way. My concern is that if it bugs him to the extent he is shaking head and scratching all the time, does he have to endure that level of discomfort every single day for the rest of his hopefully long life?! Im wondering how much stress would that place on him, and the quality of his life. poor guy. He seems happy though, when he's not focusing on it.

Well, Raven is a lucky bird to have ended up with you! You take such good care of him. Poor little guy has a messed up nose At least he's otherwise healthy!

Poor little guy! But it seems like you are dealing with it well, and he is adapting.
It is definitely an interesting story... and back to that old saying with kids, and how you cannot seem to turn your back on them for a second without them getting into some kind of trouble. lol!

RavensGryf said:

He always scratches at it and shakes his head. Now I have to wait about a week this time after his nostril heals from the last curetting yesterday and see if it makes him more comfortable. Doctor said he didn't really have much left over "junk" in there this time. He seems a little under the weather today (after being at the vet's yesterday) which is not usual and kind of concerning me. He also had full grooming including beak.

If he continues to shake and scratch for some reason (can't have him that miserable for that the rest of his life!) I'll have to take him back to pursue looking into it further as to what can be done.

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I was reminded of your situation with Raven the other day while I was showering Maya. Every time I would pass the water over her head, she would automatically shake her head and sometimes scratch at her nare area.

Considering that Raven has to regularly get left over dried effluvia removed from his sinus cavity, I'm figuring that the head shaking is a natural and automatic response in parrots to the presence of matter/fluid in that space. A reflexive way to clear the sinus cavity/nasal passages of water during rainfall, or any type of fine debris, as well.

You might already have figured this, but thought I'd share just in case.

Thanks Stephen, no I didn't think of that, but makes sense He's still doing it. The vet said last week that he didn't see any more debris coming down. At least none was there at the time. Then WHY is he still shaking his head? Drives me nuts to think something is driving HIM nuts, but I don't know what. After Robin's re-check for his lead level next week, I'm making another appointment for Raven to try to get to the bottom of this. I'll have to observe how often he does it. It's not as much as it was at times before, but still it bothers me unless I have a good answer as to why.

Another thing Stephen, I nearly missed your reply... I usually only look in the "New Posts" or Subscribed threads sections. I bet that's how I miss a lot of threads and posts. I need to start looking under the forum sections.

RavensGryf said:

Thanks Stephen, no I didn't think of that, but makes sense He's still doing it. The vet said last week that he didn't see any more debris coming down. At least none was there at the time. Then WHY is he still shaking his head? Drives me nuts to think something is driving HIM nuts, but I don't know what. After Robin's re-check for his lead level next week, I'm making another appointment for Raven to try to get to the bottom of this. I'll have to observe how often he does it. It's not as much as it was at times before, but still it bothers me unless I have a good answer as to why.

Another thing Stephen, I nearly missed your reply... I usually only look in the "New Posts" or Subscribed threads sections. I bet that's how I miss a lot of threads and posts. I need to start looking under the forum sections.

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You're welcome, Julie. [emoji6]

Assuming that my theory is correct, it would hold true even if there was no longer any "debris" coming down. All it would take is something out of alignment in the bare or the sinus cavity itself. Something that would trip the "sensor" once in a while and trigger the automatic clearing response.

The equivalent, I'd think, to something brushing lightly against human nose hairs and triggering a sneeze. Know what I mean?

As for nearly missing my reply, I've been caught by that a few times, myself. What works best for me is to frequently check my User Control Panel, and click on "View all subscribed threads". Then after checking those, I check for New Posts. And THEN I check under the individual forum sections, since the turnover rate there is considerably slower than in New Posts, Subscribed Threads or Active Topics. Things still slip past, but the instances are definitely fewer and farther between.

I wonder Stephen, if he shakes just because things are misshaped in the sinus/nare area now, and it just feels uncomfortable? I will have to try to get to the bottom of this. I can't see him being miserable about it for the rest of his life.

Thanks so much for your concern and insight Stephen

RavensGryf said:

I wonder Stephen, if he shakes just because things are misshaped in the sinus/nare area now, and it just feels uncomfortable? I will have to try to get to the bottom of this. I can't see him being miserable about it for the rest of his life.

Thanks so much for your concern and insight Stephen

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This is similar to what I was thinking. Maybe, he now has an unfamiliar feeling on that side. Almost like he can breathe more air and the air creates a "strange" feeling?