Ivan.Vanca
Active member
Hello. Does anybody have an experience with chronic carrying chlamydiosis at budgies? My female budgie Erwinka has chronic hepatitis probably due to chlamydia. In the past I was treating by enrofloxacin, doxycycline, azitromicin... I went on injections, but she vomited after 4. injection. Like some budgies would not be able to get rid off chlamydia. I am not sure whether the stress from me and my emotions can activate chlamydia, or what.... Thanks.
P:S: On budgie whisperers I was told that "Fluoroquinolones like Enrofloxacin are the most harmful. The addition of the fluoride molecule to the quinolones means it gets straight into the cells to an extent other antibiotics can't. Problem being that while this can heal stubborn infections it can also cause immense damage, lethal damage. They're not drugs to abuse or mass dose entire groups with 'just in case' - that's how you create 'superbugs'"
But I did not get any alternative. Maybe more sunlight and less stress, but I am too lazy to do that. So, any other suggestion? THanks.
I got some reply on facebook ( budgies whisperers site ) from one women. She told me this ( sorry, it is longer ) :
We can cause harm in our efforts to keep them safe, and when we are too heavily using medications generation after generation, we can accidentally breed out their immune strength, and the heavy medicine use hides it. Until it progresses so far it's a problem despite the drugs. Then they get sick and die no matter what drugs you use.
The drugs help infections but can't replace the immune system; if the birds don't have the immune systems to fight infection and heal, there's really nothing you can do to save them. Breeding for stronger immune systems is the only thing you can do for that.
Do you do breed, not just keep as pets that aren't bred, then the best thing you can do (long term) is to breed those which are strongest. They are the ones which don't need your help to survive.
Immune suppression is the main cause of chlamydia taking over, and the immune suppression is often from another cause such as fungal toxins (mycotoxins) in feed. In pelleted or processed feeds it can impossible to see, smell, or taste.
It would be very strange if your whole flock were equally susceptible to chlamydia, and unless they're all very closely related (so, suspect inbreeding depression) then I'd be checking for environmental issues. Lack of sunlight is a factor for sure. That definitely needs remedying somehow.
There isn't any tissue FQs cannot harm because while they're not considered directly toxic to the liver or kidneys, they have systemic effects that differ according to the individual genetic makeup of the patient.
The most common injury is connective tissue damage and mitochondrial toxicity. The connective tissues can usually heal themselves given time and good nutrition but when the mitochondria are damaged the organism simply doesn't have the energy to heal.
Doxycycline is safer for the same reason it's less potent. It's not got the cell-penetrating power the FQs get from the fluoride.
I've had weak immune systems in my birds and tried many treatments. Ultimately while some work for a while, I found they can just prolong the inevitable and make a weak, sick animal suffer for a very long time before dying anyway.
So I breed for strength and it's the most powerful tool I have to keep them healthy. It's more important than good feed, clean water, shelter, avoiding stress, etc.
I will try to give some suggestions to help anyway.
If you're not supplementing a supportive or therapeutic dose of vitamin A, you should. The amount normally in feed (maintenance dose) isn't enough for diseased birds whose vit A needs can be many, many times higher. The body uses vit A for many things including healing and defense of mucosa. When sick it's rapidly depleted.
I'd add vinegar to their water, not the water with the medicines in it of course. I use apple cider vinegar, and a higher dose than usual. About a quarter of a cup of ACV per liter of water. The acetic acid in it (which you can buy separately if you prefer) is a topical fungicide and biofilm killer, so helps destroy difficult infections.
P:S: On budgie whisperers I was told that "Fluoroquinolones like Enrofloxacin are the most harmful. The addition of the fluoride molecule to the quinolones means it gets straight into the cells to an extent other antibiotics can't. Problem being that while this can heal stubborn infections it can also cause immense damage, lethal damage. They're not drugs to abuse or mass dose entire groups with 'just in case' - that's how you create 'superbugs'"
But I did not get any alternative. Maybe more sunlight and less stress, but I am too lazy to do that. So, any other suggestion? THanks.
I got some reply on facebook ( budgies whisperers site ) from one women. She told me this ( sorry, it is longer ) :
We can cause harm in our efforts to keep them safe, and when we are too heavily using medications generation after generation, we can accidentally breed out their immune strength, and the heavy medicine use hides it. Until it progresses so far it's a problem despite the drugs. Then they get sick and die no matter what drugs you use.
The drugs help infections but can't replace the immune system; if the birds don't have the immune systems to fight infection and heal, there's really nothing you can do to save them. Breeding for stronger immune systems is the only thing you can do for that.
Do you do breed, not just keep as pets that aren't bred, then the best thing you can do (long term) is to breed those which are strongest. They are the ones which don't need your help to survive.
Immune suppression is the main cause of chlamydia taking over, and the immune suppression is often from another cause such as fungal toxins (mycotoxins) in feed. In pelleted or processed feeds it can impossible to see, smell, or taste.
It would be very strange if your whole flock were equally susceptible to chlamydia, and unless they're all very closely related (so, suspect inbreeding depression) then I'd be checking for environmental issues. Lack of sunlight is a factor for sure. That definitely needs remedying somehow.
There isn't any tissue FQs cannot harm because while they're not considered directly toxic to the liver or kidneys, they have systemic effects that differ according to the individual genetic makeup of the patient.
The most common injury is connective tissue damage and mitochondrial toxicity. The connective tissues can usually heal themselves given time and good nutrition but when the mitochondria are damaged the organism simply doesn't have the energy to heal.
Doxycycline is safer for the same reason it's less potent. It's not got the cell-penetrating power the FQs get from the fluoride.
I've had weak immune systems in my birds and tried many treatments. Ultimately while some work for a while, I found they can just prolong the inevitable and make a weak, sick animal suffer for a very long time before dying anyway.
So I breed for strength and it's the most powerful tool I have to keep them healthy. It's more important than good feed, clean water, shelter, avoiding stress, etc.
I will try to give some suggestions to help anyway.
If you're not supplementing a supportive or therapeutic dose of vitamin A, you should. The amount normally in feed (maintenance dose) isn't enough for diseased birds whose vit A needs can be many, many times higher. The body uses vit A for many things including healing and defense of mucosa. When sick it's rapidly depleted.
I'd add vinegar to their water, not the water with the medicines in it of course. I use apple cider vinegar, and a higher dose than usual. About a quarter of a cup of ACV per liter of water. The acetic acid in it (which you can buy separately if you prefer) is a topical fungicide and biofilm killer, so helps destroy difficult infections.