Conure's aggression worse every day. Desperate for help.

[Birdman666]

The bite pressure training threads are here...

I'd charge you to read them, but I'm not a full fledged wizard yet...

http://www.parrotforums.com/macaws/56432-bite-pressure-training.html

 

[Anansi]

Also, you'd mentioned in one of your earlier posts that the whole sending the bird to the floor thing wasn't working for you. But you don't necessarily have to do exactly that. The point is to make sure that Charlie understands that certain things are just not allowed. You want to forge an association in his mind between certain actions and undesirable results.

I personally don't send my birds to the floor. In my situation, it just isn't a feasible option. One of my birds is an exceptionally skillful flier, and the other would seek the nearest couch to crawl under and convert into a nesting space. But the principle remains the same. The consistent rule of cause and effect. Action and consequence. You're setting boundaries. Consistency will ensure that he respects those boundaries.

I agree 100% that not reacting to a bite is bad advice. How are they supposed to understand that what they are doing is wrong unless you find a way to convey your displeasure?

The three methods I used most with bite pressure training are the wobble technique (giving the hand or arm your bird is standing on a quick shake. Just enough to cause an unpleasant sensation of lost balance, but never enough to actually make them fall), timeouts (putting them back in the cage if they continue the hard biting) and distraction. Distraction doesn't fall under the unpleasant association techniques. You merely carry a small, bird-safe distractor (like a Lego or an untreated wooden clothes pin) so that when Charlie goes to bite, he gets that instead. Which he'll chew and chew, hopefully forgetting his desire to eat you in the process.

These methods work. I rarely ever have to address my flock about beak pressure.

Just remember that consistency is key. Fluctuations in your responses will only confuse him.

Please keep us updated on your progress, and let's see some pics of your little guy!

 

[GFGC]

Thank you! I'm definitely ready to take the power back, haha! I don't think I have trained Charlie TO bite, but I definitely didn't do enough to tell him it's wrong to do so. I have been so paranoid about him disliking me, seeing his psyche as such a fragile, easily-ruined thing that I have ended up being a bad parent!

 

[Anansi]

Not so much a bad parent as an uninformed one. But doing the research to learn how you can better raise Charlie? That's actually the sign of a good parent.

We all had to learn somewhere. All any of us have done is built upon the knowledge and experience of others... as well as learned from our own successes and mistakes.

 

[GFGC]

Well, it's been a few days. I have been bitten, for sure, and Charlie has definitely had some trips to the floor. He flies pretty well for a clipped bird, so I have to grab him with the other hand and set him down there, so he's only there for a moment before he's like "oh yeah, wings... and then flies somewhere else, usually somewhere he's not supposed to be like the sofa or kitchen counter.

I am a little hesitant to do the cage time out. He already takes some issue going back in when he's not doing playing, and I don't want him to always assume that going in is punishment. Since he's a decent flyer, do you guys think that might be more effective treatment? How long should he be in there if so?

He hasn't broken the skin like before, so I have to assume he is at least lightening up a little bit. I REALLY want him to get used to my hands. It's like he sees my hands as either therapeutic chew toys, or the providers of great neck scratches and little else. What I have been doing is actually resting my hand on his playground and letting him react to it how he chooses. If he ignores it, cool. If he nibbles, that's fine too. An angry little scream and a nip or a nibble that turns into a bite with action-packed twisting motion? That gets a little beak grab and a "no."

Is this just "asking for it" or is this an acceptable method? He has really been enjoying the scratches the past few days, even coming up to my hand when I make a little scratching motion and ask him if he'd like some. However, there are some favorite biting places that he enjoys on my hands that he tends to zero in on when he feels like it. I have a feeling he also enjoys the salt on my hands (I get nervous when I'm petting him!!!).

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I am just trying to be as efficient as I can with him so that I don't solve one problem (biting) and begin another one (even more disdain for back-in-the-cage time). I'd like to prevent Charlie from being TOO much of a guinea pig in the process!

I'll post pics soon!

 

[Anansi]

I hear you about creating a negative connotation with the cage. To avoid this, I work to make certain positive associations with the cage as well. But you actually don't necessarily have to put them in the cage for timeout. An unadorned training stand would do as well. Obviously, the cage would be more effective for your flier, but repeated trips to the stand can also work.

When he's on timeout, you must turn your back on him and refuse to acknowledge him in the slightest. I usually do this for anywhere from 5-15 minutes, depending on the infraction.

And remember, results here are going to take time. Time and patience. But you'll get there.

 

[GFGC]

Hmm... if it's supposed to be that long, then I guess I'd have to be stuck using the cage. There's no way he's going to sit on the floor longer than a few moments, and he will just fly to somewhere he enjoys being.

 

[Notdumasilook]

Maybe I am doing it all wrong but it works. My lil SC Booger is not a biter but still those instinctive bites over food/toys etc have happened. After learning this lil birds perks I shortly resorted to just immobilizing him in my hand with thumb and forefinger around his neck.. wagged a finger in his face with a firm but not loud 'no". Put him right back on my shoulder and I usually get a "kiss" apology. His biting has not been near what you are dealing with but he still has his moments.

 

[JerseyWendy]

..... I shortly resorted to just immobilizing him in my hand with thumb and forefinger around his neck.. wagged a finger in his face with a firm but not loud 'no". Put him right back on my shoulder and I usually get a "kiss" apology. His biting has not been near what you are dealing with but he still has his moments.

I'm glad this seems to work for you, however, it's not a training method/tool I would ever feel comfortable recommending for anyone to resort to. I have never, and certainly will never grab any of my birds around the neck in an attempt to stop unwanted behavior.

 

[RavensGryf]

..... I shortly resorted to just immobilizing him in my hand with thumb and forefinger around his neck.. wagged a finger in his face with a firm but not loud 'no". Put him right back on my shoulder and I usually get a "kiss" apology. His biting has not been near what you are dealing with but he still has his moments.

I'm glad this seems to work for you, however, it's not a training method/tool I would ever feel comfortable recommending for anyone to resort to. I have never, and certainly will never grab any of my birds around the neck in an attempt to stop unwanted behavior.

I agree with Wendy, as that sort of method is 'old school' and akin to hitting a dog to make it mind you. Sure it might work, but then you have an unhappy hand shy dog who may be prone to biting.

There are much better modern methods today for all animal training, and prey animals such as birds, and while use of "some" of the old school methods are effective in certain circumstances and with certain birds (though not as blatant as a 'predator' grabbing the neck) it is blended with positive reinforcement.

 

[Notdumasilook]

actually it was taught to me by Judy Altees...who was a really a world class bird trainer/breeder. There is no pain involved and less restrictive than using a towel. Heck Im not talking about choking the bird. It might be old school .. but then I am old yah know. And no its NOT like hitting a dog.. it just gets em your undivided attention for a moment...and I do mean just a moment. Ever take a bird to a vet? How do they hold the bird? Same way. (at least mine does) And no.... I have never had a hand shy bird...in fact totally opposite. Maybe its not the approved modern "time out" method.. but its hard to give flighted birds a "time out" unless you stick em in a shoe box or something.

 

[JerseyWendy]

Yes, an avian vet will use this method to restrict the bird WHILE he/she does necessary exams, but only then, and not a moment longer.

 

[RavensGryf]

actually it was taught to me by Judy Altees...who was a really a world class bird trainer/breeder. There is no pain involved and less restrictive than using a towel. Heck Im not talking about choking the bird. It might be old school .. but then I am old yah know. And no its NOT like hitting a dog.. it just gets em your undivided attention for a moment. Ever take a bird to a vet? How do they hold the bird? Same way. (at least mine does)

I DO understand that . Yes at the vet they do restrain at the neck. Heck, over the years I've even seen birds being pulled out of carriers for grooming at various places 'not so' gently by the neck! I've been into parrots 20+ years so I'm not so 'shocked' at anything so much as I wanted to clarify to people newer to parrots, to not interpret that wrong, and go grabbing their parrot like a chicken going to slaughter.

 

[Anansi]

actually it was taught to me by Judy Altees...who was a really a world class bird trainer/breeder. There is no pain involved and less restrictive than using a towel. Heck Im not talking about choking the bird. It might be old school .. but then I am old yah know. And no its NOT like hitting a dog.. it just gets em your undivided attention for a moment. Ever take a bird to a vet? How do they hold the bird? Same way. (at least mine does)

Yeah, I figured you were using the veterinary hold method. And done correctly, you're right, it is painless. Personally, I just wouldn't use it as a regular form of deterrent. You know what I mean?

For instance, if a bird suddenly list his mind and started attacking my son, let's say, of course I would use it. And I have used it in the past on one occasion where one of my birds was refusing to take his antibiotic and I had to force him.

Painless method, and effective.

I just wouldn't use it as a teaching/training tool.

 

[Notdumasilook]

Each to their own I guess. When a bird is dealing with you he is dealing with another bird in his mind. In the wild they resolve issues with beak and claw to show whos "boss" or teaching a lesson. I figure the quick momentary restraint gets the idea across without me having to bite him back )~. A few times using that and the word "no"... shortly after all u have to say is "no" and they get the idea...no harm no fowl (foul).
And no, its not a "go to" for every lil perk I want to "adjust". I want my bird to be a bird.. and a happy bird. But I wanna be a happy human too and when they decide to rip at my face with enthusiasm I am not happy. Ive had birds for over 30 years and I have never hurt one and never plan to.

 

[JerseyWendy]

.....When a bird is dealing with you he is dealing with another bird in his mind. .....

That 'may' hold true for my youngest....

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdwAY0xDyLI"]Ripely and mark - YouTube[/ame]

For me? Not so much.

 

[Anansi]

Hahahahahaha! I love this video!

 

[Notdumasilook]

Last trip to the vet... my Bfa was restrained for well over 30 minutes for a complete checkup. it really was no biggie to him. Our methods differ. Some want to use "Dr Spock" methods like the birds are human children I guess. I go more for "Dr FlocK". Birds have succeeded for millions of years on that method and I see no reason to change it. They learn quickly if you use the right approach. They have to in the wild.. their survival depends on it. I learned more about flocking bird behaviors watching a flock of crows interact for several hours than I did from all the bird info I can find on the internet. Then I watch my own birds interact and keep learning. IMHO its just flat wrong to try and teach a bird like a human child when they are hardwired by nature to be a bird.
But of course..thats just my thinkin.

 

[Terry57]

Last trip to the vet... my Bfa was restrained for well over 30 minutes for a complete checkup. it really was no biggie to him. Our methods differ. Some want to use "Dr Spock" methods like the birds are human children I guess. I go more for "Dr FlocK". Birds have succeeded for millions of years on that method and I see no reason to change it. They learn quickly if you use the right approach. They have to in the wild.. their survival depends on it. I learned more about flocking bird behaviors watching a flock of crows interact for several hours than I did from all the bird info I can find on the internet. Then I watch my own birds interact and keep learning. IMHO its just flat wrong to try and teach a bird like a human child when they are hardwired by nature to be a bird.
But of course..thats just my thinkin.

For many many years, it was also thought that an all seed diet, living in a small round cage and using a tether on their leg was completely acceptable too. I think that just as our feeding and general care ideas have changed, that training ideas can change as well.
I prefer to earn my birds trust rather than forcing my will upon them, that's just my .02 on the subject

 

[JerseyWendy]

Last trip to the vet... my Bfa was restrained for well over 30 minutes for a complete checkup. it really was no biggie to him. Our methods differ. Some want to use "Dr Spock" methods like the birds are human children I guess. I go more for "Dr FlocK". Birds have succeeded for millions of years on that method and I see no reason to change it. They learn quickly if you use the right approach. They have to in the wild.. their survival depends on it. I learned more about flocking bird behaviors watching a flock of crows interact for several hours than I did from all the bird info I can find on the internet. Then I watch my own birds interact and keep learning. IMHO its just flat wrong to try and teach a bird like a human child when they are hardwired by nature to be a bird.
But of course..thats just my thinkin.

Thing is our birds are NOT in the wild. We are keeping them in our homes, and as much as we'd like to try to imitate Mother Nature - we just can't.

We have a lot of newbies reading these forums, and I would never want an inexperienced person reading your idea of training by grabbing their bird by the neck. We all know how thin their necks are, and how easily they 'can' break.

There ARE other methods out there. Methods that work. Methods that don't include any kind of force.

Here are only 2 links that I found while doing a quick search, but there are hundreds out there if someone takes the time and looks.

Parrots: Reducing Aggression and Fear

How To Tame Your Wild Or Aggressive Biting Parrot - Dealing With Unwanted Behavior In Your Pet Parrot

Lastly, I personally know of birds who have stressed so much over being forcibly restrained they ended up seizing or DEAD.