Conure's aggression worse every day. Desperate for help.

[Anansi]

Any newbie needs to learn the "how to" in short order. It comes with the territory .. Even you have had to do it... correct??

I was a newbie once.. and that week I was given 10 prefilled syringes of anti-biotic to inject a bird with.

Of course these kinds of scenarios happen to newbies as well. You are absolutely correct. And when they do happen, yes, said newbie has to step up to the plate. As you did. No doubt. But if you're talking injection syringes, (which, to be honest, would intimidate me even now, much less as a newbie) I'm sure you were shown how to administer the injections, no?

It's through trial-by-fire experiences like these that a newbie becomes experienced. Something happens, and you have to man/woman up and deal. But isn't it better that, if at all possible, you are shown the correct way to handle these situations by someone with more experience?

Folks don't seem to have an issue with getting physical with the good old "wing cliipping' which is far more stressful than the
30 seconds of (safe) restraint I used on a face eating bird.

Uhmmm... you're kidding, right? Folks don't have an issue with wing clipping? Really?!? Hahahahahaha! That is probably the single most hotly debated subject amongst keepers of parrots! I personally prefer keeping my birds flighted, and was once told by a fellow parront that she thought I was cruel for doing so, because they would fly into a wall and die... and it would be completely my fault for letting it happen. Yeah, passions run high on the wing clipping debate... on both sides.

And btw, you mentioned your guy having been a "face-eating bird". For what it's worth, if a bird was going hard after my face I might have used that method too. In a pinch, it's an effective and humane method of containing an out of control parrot. It just wouldn't be my regular, go to deterrent. After going for my face, he'd simply no longer be allowed on my shoulder. You know?

...far as "proven" methods.. I don't think there are any. If there were the original poster could have just looked that up real quick somewhere.. problem solved.

I think there are proven methods. Just not any that necessarily serve in a cookie-cutter capacity across the board. What may work for one bird may not necessarily work for another. So coming on a site like this allows people to learn about a variety of approaches from a variety of people, running the gamut from so-called old-school to the positive reinforcement only philosophy at the other end of the spectrum. I happen to fall somewhere in the middle, myself. But I can respect other takes.

You seem to have taken a debate personally, and I'm sorry that is the case. No one here thinks you are an abuser of birds. Caution has simply been advised in the employ of your chosen tactic of immobilization... for any who might read of it and attempt to adapt it for their own parrots.

Now, to bring this back to the original focus of the thread, how about we get back to either more suggestions for the OP, or any more updates from the OP regarding the parrot in question.

 

[Notdumasilook]

Slow your roll there, Notdumasilook. No one is saying your birds are being abused or anything like that. Chances are you do lots of things right by them and you obviously love them deeply.

Way I see it, there are two things going on here. On one level, I think you and I can both agree that there is a correct and incorrect way to perform the method of restraint to which you are referring, yes? And that if someone were to attempt this method and did so incorrectly, they could potentially damage the bird whose behavior they are seeking to correct? Well, as Wendy and Julie pointed out earlier, it is important that people new to bird-keeping understand that this is not some maneuver that you just up and start doing with your birds without being shown exactly how. Doing otherwise would be potentially dangerous, and it's important that people understand this. Which makes us as mods responsible for getting the word out. No one is saying that your post is going to spur a rash of neck grabbing incidents across the globe or anything.

But if even one incident could occur, wouldn't it be worth it to make sure people understood that there is a particular way to do it?

On another level, there is a debate as to when (or even if) such a manner of restraint is appropriate and should come into play. You mentioned before that you thought your method of restraint was potentially less invasive than toweling, and I agree with you on that score. But toweling, like the neck restraint method, I'd only use as a last resort. It's not that the tactic is inhumane or anything. And I'm sure you love the living heck out of your birds. You're just quicker on that particular trigger than I would be is all.

Conversely, you said you would only use it on birds that were bonded to you and not on those who needed to be rehabbed. I'm actually the complete opposite. If a bird was completely out of control and I absolutely needed to move him somewhere or take control of him for whatever reason, be it medication or a visit to the vet or whatever, that's the bird I'd use it on. Just different perspectives is all.

And as for you being "allowed" to stay, I'm actually glad you said that. There seems to be an impression in the minds of a few here and there that disparate views can get people banned. Not even remotely true. As long as you are respectful in your stated views, such action would never be taken.

What gets someone banned? Aggressively insulting behavior, whether on the open forum or via pm. Being a "troll". Repeatedly and flagrantly disregarding the rules of this site, even after warnings are given.

But differing opinions? No way! Forums thrive on that stuff!

Well I appreciate your thoughtful response. I came to this forum when I ended up with a "throwaway" bird... hoping to pick up on some of the quirks of that particular species.. Booger my Sun Conure. Ran across a few post here and there where I tossed in my 2 cents. This one was one of them. Next thing ya know, I'm getting vilified like I run a house of horrors.. post are getting dissected, words taken out of context, insults tossed at me, and assumptions made (even by you)... for my "differing opinion". Seems tactics like that are designed to "silence".. not stimulate a conversation, especially when a moderator gets in the fray. I agree that a new bird owner needs to know the right way to restrain a bird if needed. I would think Miss Wendy can find a link showing the right way to do it??? Problem solved.
All the birds I have owned except 2 were "throwaways" that had clueless owners. With the exception of 1 all shortly became sweet natured and even affectionate family members. I do not use restraint as a first approach but will not hesitate when push come to shove. Im not "quick on the trigger" as you may have assumed. Facial attacks tho do not go unanswered.
And I did misspeak.. sorry.. I did restrain the CAG I just rescued from a horrid situation.. I had to for transport to my house. I was speaking in general there...generally I try to get a lil trust from them first. And I do appreciate this forum helping me place the CAG in a better situation. One of your members came to my aid and another helped me with some species info while I worked with the mistreated critter a bit.
Again, thanks for the thoughtful response.. it was a breath of fresh air in a somewhat unpleasant environment.
And a bit of an update. Fixing the fresh foods for my birds yesterday,.. same scenario when Booger went "T-REX" on me... he flew to my shoulder to investigate and supervise. No attack came.. just the lil conure "happy dance". Have a good day.

 

[Anansi]

You're welcome. I didn't want you to feel you were being vilified, as that certainly was not the intent of anyone here. And if I incorrectly assumed that you were using this tactic as an initial response when it is indeed more of a last resort, I do sincerely apologize. It's merely the impression I received after reading your first post or two on this thread. But I'm certainly not infallible, and may indeed have misread what you were saying.

I'm sorry that you thought you were being "silenced" by the mods in this thread, but that was not anyone's intent, either. What is often forgotten is that we mods are members here, too. When we must, we act in our official capacity as mods. As Wendy and Julie did when they pointed out the danger of a restraining neck hold if done incorrectly. But otherwise, we're just participating in this forum same as any of the rest of you. Just because someone in purple disagrees with one of your points, (or what was perceived to be one of your points) does not mean that your own point of view no longer has validity. It just means that a mod's very human opinion happens to be contrary to your own. No difference from what might happen with any other member.

As for Wendy having to put up a link illustrating the correct way to restrain a parrot using the neck method you employ, I must respectfully point out that, while she often does put up helpful links for the edification of our members, she does so out of a spirit of generosity. Not obligation. And given that she actually does not like said method and never employs it herself, I think it would be a bit much to ask that she find and post a link detailing how it is done. Informing the general membership that there is a right and wrong way should be enough for anyone who is interested to investigate further on their own.

I have a great deal of respect for people like you who have rescued birds considered to be "throwaways" and rehabilitated them to the point of being sweet and loving members of the family. Not an easy task, I know. So I would hope you wouldn't come away from this feeling like your views are anything less than appreciated. But you do have to keep in mind that mods have a right to voice our opinions as well.

There will be misunderstandings from time to time. And things will get kinda hot here and there. That's just the way of things with a forum. But an open and honest exchange of ideas is always welcomed here.

I'm so happy to hear your update with Booger! Getting a bird to change an unwanted behavior can be difficult, and I'm glad you managed it with your former T-Rex. A conure happy dance beats a chomp to the face any day. Hahaha!

 

[Notdumasilook]

""As for Wendy having to put up a link illustrating the correct way to restrain a parrot using the neck method you employ, I must respectfully point out that, while she often does put up helpful links for the edification of our members, she does so out of a spirit of generosity. Not obligation. And given that she actually does not like said method and never employs it herself, I think it would be a bit much to ask that she find and post a link detailing how it is done. Informing the general membership that there is a right and wrong way should be enough for anyone who is interested to investigate further on their own.""

And forgive me for the cut and paste... Id hunt a link but its murder on this lil tablet of mine to even send an email. If safety of the birds are indeed the issue here.. I mean if it saves only 1 bird.. right??
And heck yeah.. I cant wait to get an update on the posters progress. He (she) has already gone above the call of duty and expense to find a solution. I can imagine its kinda heartbreaking when a bird turns on you deciding you are at the bottom of the pecking order.

 

[GFGC]

Hey everyone. I'm back for an update.
The news is good: Charlie has been improving a great deal. I really do think that his biggest issue was a lack of discipline. Hard bites get a little beak grab and a firm, low "no!" Bad ones result in a timeout on the floor or in his cage. I feel a LOT better about his attitude. Here are some of the changes he has made:

-Hands are no longer exclusively for biting: while he is still nippy, the severity has decreased a great deal. He hasn't broken the skin in days.
-If he is in the mood, he will actually shimmy UNDER a hand held over his perch now to get some scratches.
-He has allowed me to gently put my hands around him or under him to remove him from my girlfriends shoulders or hair. This is huge.
-He has allowed me to put a hand over him, resting some fingers on his back while giving him scratches on his head.
-He seeks out affection, even though he doesn't quite know how to ask for it nicely yet (he will still use biting as a way to communicate with my hands in good ways and bad. I try to only comply with his demands for scratches when he rubs his head on my hand as opposed to when he gets bitey).
-He has allowed me to gently cup him against my chest while scratching his head.
-Yesterday was our first bite free day!

Something else I have been employing is to treat him almost every time he steps up nicely. While it may not be the smartest thing to do, it has made stepping up a much more appealing thing for him and I would rather he expect a mouth full of apple chunk than a mouth full of finger. I'm sure I'll eventually wean him off of this so he gets treated to a lesser extent, but the bites of protest that came from removing him from my shoulder have ALMOST completely disappeared.

I probably jinxed myself with this glowing report card, but I am happy and so is Charlie. He has learned a couple of new tricks in the mean time (he will flip completely over his perch on command, and he had some breakthroughs last night learning how to fetch and set a bottle cap in my hand).

So at this rate I could potentially have him be a gentleman just in time for him to hit puberty and become a terror again! Hopefully that won't be the case.

He is going through a molt right now, covered in pins and dropping little green feathers, which might account somewhat for his newly found enjoyment of affection, but I think it has a LOT to do with just setting up some rules for him. Yesterday he flew to the kitchen when I was in there (as he always does), and I had to remove him (as I always do). He stepped up from the counter and, on the way out of the kitchen, he made his crackly little protest squeal and lunged downward at my finger. However, he did not clamp down or apply pressure. He just kind of wiggled his mouth around my finger in disapproval. I think that's a big step!

I'll keep the updates coming. Thanks again so much for all the help here, everyone. This is a great place and I am glad I reached out. It's nice to have so much "real world" experience all in one place.

 

[Anansi]

Sweet update! And offering treats for him to step up is exactly what you needed to do. That is one of the best ways to build the association between doing as you ask and good things. If he always associates stepping up with wonderful treats, the act of stepping up will become semi-hardwired as a good and pleasant thing in and of itself. At that point, you'll only need the occasional reinforcement.

There might still be days where he might fall off the wagon a bit, but don't let that discourage you. This is still great news. Just stay consistent and the behavior will continue to improve.

 

[GFGC]

Here is a photo of the green devil, by the way, from a couple weeks ago. He was very proud of his "report card."

 

[Birdman666]

SEE? THAT DIDN'T TAKE LONG AT ALL....

Just be consistent with it, and the bird will be just fine. They learn very quickly.

 

[Notdumasilook]

Fantastic news indeed. Once a birdie gets the concept of the word "no" it opens the doors to the positive reinforcement they also respond to so well. Tickled to death he has come around. Shortly you can expect to have to pry him off of ya with a crowbar.. part of the joy of these lil critters )

 

[ryanjimison]

Awesome news, I've been following this thread as I've had similar things go on (and seen positive similar results from the advice mentioned in this thread). Very cool!

 

[JellyBean]

Fab news... I had a sort-of similar experience recently; JellyBean was really upping his aggressiveness levels and I - idiot that I am - thought of the "do not react" school of bird parenting would work. It was a disaster. I posted a help-message, and all the suggestions were to let him know that he is wrong when he bites hard - not punishing him, not being mean to him, but simply that he understands. I tried the mini time-outs... they worked a dream!!! So when he bit me I told him he was a Bold Bird and put him away from me.. could be on the nearest perch and walk away... within a day it worked!!! I was thrilled!!!

 

[Notdumasilook]

Cool. How do you get your bird to stay on a perch?? Mine kinda go where they wanna go regardess of where I put em. Glad you had success!

 

[yorkshiregal]

My bird bites me and says, "No bite!" So he definitely knows what biting is!! Think i went wrong somewhere lol…super intelligent these little guys

 

[Notdumasilook]

My bird bites me and says, "No bite!" So he definitely knows what biting is!! Think i went wrong somewhere lol…super intelligent these little guys

Hah he didn't get the concept of the NO part. My BFA likes to mock fight.. or just sit on my shoulder and chew my fingers. When he bears down a bit I tell him "be easy" and he backs off a bit. Darn right they are smart and learn quick given the chance

 

[Grraarrgghh]

Cool. How do you get your bird to stay on a perch?? Mine kinda go where they wanna go regardess of where I put em. Glad you had success!

I don't clip, but I've heard it suggested that problem birds calm down considerably even with a minor clip, as they end up relying a lot more on you to get around, which in turn causes them to be a bit nicer

It also makes removing a velcro bird have a bit more consequence.

 

[Notdumasilook]

yeah gotcha. Ive heard that theory too, but like you Im not in to flightless birdies. Id have to resort to duct tape or staple their lil feet to the perch.

 

[GFGC]

UPDATE:
Charlie seems to have plateaued and then slightly regressed with his biting. Not a major setback, but it seems like he has found his default degree of biting. Too bad for him, his default is still too much for me. My hands still aren't safe!

What should my next step be? I am considering a week of "zero tolerance" when it comes to biting. As it stands now, if he starts to nibble I will say "be nice" until he gets too hard in which case he will get a firm "no" while I remove his beak from my finger and look deep into his cold, black, dead little eyes. Something obviously out of line like an attack or lunge or very painful bite results in a firm "no," and I hold his beak and physically pick him up and put him in his cage.

I'm wondering if next week (because this weekend is kind of nuts) a bite hard enough to cause pain just results in a direct time out without all the lead up. I'm wondering if a week of that will finally educate him. He might be feeling a bit of confusion due to the different degrees of punishment. I'm not sure.

A couple of other questions: last night, he was doing something odd. He was on my girlfriend's lap singing along to music she was playing while she sang to him. He started to get CRAZY! He would lean his body against hers and open his mouth and kick up one of his feet if a hand got near him. He was nearly on his back. We were having a hard time determining if this was him being aggressive or being (a little too) playful. I know that if I put my hand near him while he is perched, he will reach out a foot to grab a finger. When he does, it's to bite it though.

He has a ball in his cage that he rolls over onto his back and plays with in a similar fashion, so I am LEANING towards him being a spaz and wanting to play. Obviously I didn't get too close to him or let him engage my hand because I was unsure of his behavior and also know that it seemed a little contradictory to offer him a nice juicy finger when I am attempting to teach him that they are not for biting. I'd love to wrestle with him if that's what he wants, but at this point I fear it might undo some of his progress.

Another theory is that he was just being possessive of my girlfriend. He's with me all day and only gets to see her in the evening and on weekends. She also wears clothes that are more interesting (read: better for chewing) and has hair that he loves to climb up and play with for the few seconds before we remove him from her shoulder (not safe yet). When she's around, he isn't terribly interested in me. A lift from her lap to mine, because she is still afraid to touch him too much where as I have conquered my fear of his death beak, will usually just result in him running from my lap back to hers, usually biting me in the process. Is she his favorite, or is she just super interesting?

Anyway, thanks again. Sorry for the long post. So much to learn!

 

[Notdumasilook]

Not sure about your birdie but when Booger (SC) puts his foot up, mouth open, and rolls nearly on his back its "tickle my belly" time. 100% play.. I still get chewed on but with much less pressure. Im still working on his bite pressure awareness, because he can still get a lil enthusiastic. And I doubt you will undo progress on the aggressive biting by letting him chew on your fingers at playtime.
LoL @ the "beak of death". Love the fact you are socializiing your birdie so he doesn't end up a one person bird. Trust me once that bird comes around it can give you a break from all the "playtime" having someone else he shares his affection with. They can wear one person out!

 

[GFGC]

Also, some photographic evidence of progress. The two images are of just one of my fingers. ALL of those wounds have healed now. Bites hard enough to do this damage have been severely decreased. I only have had one bite break the skin the past week as opposed to it being a daily thing. The other image is the Hyde to Charlie's Jekyll, cuddling under my hand and getting scratches galore this morning. Granted, he is still very nippy. He will go from that posture to a screaming meat grinder in an instant. However, this would have been impossible two weeks ago. I just want to trust this little guy and he has GOT to stop seeing hands as enemies. A touch on his back is a guaranteed bite. I really hope he can continue to improve.

 

[Notdumasilook]

Also, some photographic evidence of progress. The two images are of just one of my fingers. ALL of those wounds have healed now. Bites hard enough to do this damage have been severely decreased. I only have had one bite break the skin the past week as opposed to it being a daily thing. The other image is the Hyde to Charlie's Jekyll, cuddling under my hand and getting scratches galore this morning. Granted, he is still very nippy. He will go from that posture to a screaming meat grinder in an instant. However, this would have been impossible two weeks ago. I just want to trust this little guy and he has GOT to stop seeing hands as enemies. A touch on his back is a guaranteed bite. I really hope he can continue to improve.

.

OUCH.. I feel for ya bro. Seems like he would have gotten the hint by now.
And touching their backs can require their permission.. even in a well adjusted sweet bird. They really gotta trust you before you get near those wings. Even approaching from overhead to give them a lil headscratch can get you nailed. Its just good birdie manners you have to get a handle on also.