I just got booted off a Bird page on FaceBook?

[Kiwibird]

We have an expression here in Australia that describes people like that: they're so keen on themselves, they disappear up their own fundament.

I think we all know a few of these people. This phrase made my day

 

[BeakFace]

I know there is a talk forum the same way, they are brutal! I have read some very rude comments and basically we don't want your kind on here! I have never posted on there but on occasion its interesting to sign on to see just how ridiculous they can be. If you didn't know any better you would think it is a comedy act! Who would want to be a part of something like that. Just so one sided. They attack people that even mention pet store or paying for anything even a rehoming fee! I say get a life. They are to busy insulting people to be of any help!

 

[Betrisher]

BirdyMomma, you have my unreserved permission to use 'fundament' for as long as you like! (It's good, isn't it? Has that ring of class to it... )

Honestly, the pet forums can get pretty hairy, but if you want true meanness without any real cause at all, have a look at some of the autism groups! For a mob of blokes who are supposed to be 'caring' for special children, some of them are beyond rude.

Thing is, don't worry about it. You've got us! :angel:

 

[strudel]

The problem here boils down to "black and white" thinking. THIS is good, THAT is bad. It is not that simple.....

Person A: buys from a shop where the staff are "bird-knowledgable". Sale includes vet check and support for any issues that might arise. Won't sell to anyone who doesn't display the requisite knowledge and circumstances to home the animal.

Person B: buys from a rescue organisation. No clue where the animal has come from. Been through a series of ill-prepared owners. Last is reimbursed for the animal (no financial consequences for having gone into something half-baked)....

There are different circumstances in every case considered by itself. There is no "across the board" attitude that is "right" and no position that is automatically "wrong". The problem is that (some) people can think there is and boy, can they get vicious when they are challenged. It comes from the inability of (some/many) people to understand the difference between fact and opinion.

 

[aether-drifter]

The problem here boils down to "black and white" thinking. THIS is good, THAT is bad. It is not that simple.....

Well, to be fair, to some people it IS that simple. Some people do not believe in supporting the pet bird trade at all, PERIOD, because there are so many parrots already in rescues. And parrots do not really belong in captivity. Some people think that there is no such thing as a responsible breeder, because anybody who brings more baby parrots into the world is just adding to the problem (growing numbers of birds in rescues, more unwanted birds than there are good homes, etc.) I definitely see their point, and respect that -- and, to a large extent, I even agree with them. So it doesn't always have to do with whether or not the breeder raises the babies well, or vet checks or whatever. I understand the anti-breeding stance completely and I understand a group taking that stance.

What I don't understand is, booting a member without issuing a friendly warning (i.e., "Hey, we are a pro-rescue only group, just so you know -- please don't advocate for buying baby birds here.") But I think as long as nobody is there arguing IN FAVOR of breeding, or advertising breeders or pet shops, then what is the problem with them being a member? Maybe they can learn something. Maybe they will decide not to buy anymore, and to advocate for adoption.

I see it time and time again, though, and not just with bird rescue advocates. People get so passionate about their cause, they become angry and jaded. It's counterproductive in the end, because all it does is alienate people, paint all supporters of the cause in a negative light, and hinder spreading awareness of the message. Nobody likes an unpleasant "fanatic" with a "my way or the highway" attitude.

 

[Blancaej]

Doesn't sound like a group I would want to associate with! You are better off.

 

[Pinkbirdy]

Birds are Birds . To me it doesn't matter where they came from [they cant take care of themselves] . To each his own

 

[DallyTsuka]

dont matter where your bird is from as long as you love them all the same... what else matters? he still has an awesome home.

people like that are self righteous elitists. you dont need them. theyre but a bunch of people who lack control over their real lives and try to control everything else in the online bird world.

 

[Ospreyeagle]

It brings to mind the South Park episode "smug alert" where they were so pretentious they were constantly bending over and sniffing their own farts!

Haha I love that episode!

Oh yes, I got Star and Sky from PetCo instead of a breeder, where I got my cockatiels! I wonder if I would get judged for this...

Also, people are just that way... Which is sad but true!

Facebook sucks just fyi. I rarely go on it nowadays.

 

[strudel]

Some people do not believe in supporting the pet bird trade at all, PERIOD,

Sure, but if that is the case, they should keep quiet about their ownership. Regardless of what you think you are doing, "rescuing" is actually counterproductive in terms of stopping the pet bird trade. To stop the trade, you have to stop the market. As long as the "rescuers" are there, the trade will continue. As awful as it sounds, if you want to stop the trade, each unwanted bird should be "unhomable" so that the purchase price is completely wasted and nobody has an outlet for unwanted birds. The information you would get would be DON"T BUY THAT BIRD, you'll be stuck with it.....

I think the point is that all of these issues are not as cut and dried as people might like them to be.

If that's the rationale of that group, though, it may explain why they have a 'no-exceptions' policy.

 

[Betrisher]

Or, you can lobby for legislation to be brought in that live animals are not allowed to be available for sale through retail shops. Only licenced breeders would be allowed to offer them for sale and licences would be subject to statutory regulations.

As in any problematic area, change cannot happen overnight and there will be a 'meanwhile' in which live animals are in the balance. What's supposed to happen to them? They can't be left to moulder away in petshops while humans sort out their affairs! If laws were passed today that prohibited the sale of live animals in shops, there would be hundreds of thousands of such animals in limbo tomorrow! Yuck!

It's breeders who should be licenced and regulated. Since birds can't be neutered easily, one of the main requirements should be that a breeder must have all birds DNA sexed and certificated and then be required to demonstrate that the genders are separated at all times, except during purposeful breeding. Here in Australia (or at least, in NSW where I live), a lot has been done to reduce pet mills by having mandatory microchipping of all pets for sale. It is an offence to buy or sell an animal which does not have a microchip implanted. In this way, all animals are traceable and, theoretically, 'spoken for'. It will take a while yet, but unscrupulous breeders and buyers will eventually dry up as prosecutions for ownership of unmicrochipped animals continue. In the meanwhile, petshops are gradually seeing the light. I posted before that many are now getting out of the live animal trade and now only selling supplies. Recently, when our Lovebirds were stolen, I was completely unable to find a petshop that could sell me any to replace them! (NB. my son was grieving terribly) So, it's happening. Slowly.

I believe we should all do as much as we can to promote what we believe, by making others aware of circumstances and by lobbying politicians. Brow-beating members of the public is hardly the way to win friends and influence people: I should think that would be the best way to make enemies and totally lose support!

Regarding the 'black and white' mentality: there's not much anyone can do to counter that except to suggest to the rude person there might be more than one correct answer to the problem. In life, I find that people who habitually insist they are in possession of the One Truth are either fundamentalists of a religion, politicians or autistic. There's no arguing with any of 'em.

 

[aether-drifter]

Sure, but if that is the case, they should keep quiet about their ownership. Regardless of what you think you are doing, "rescuing" is actually counterproductive in terms of stopping the pet bird trade. To stop the trade, you have to stop the market. As long as the "rescuers" are there, the trade will continue. As awful as it sounds, if you want to stop the trade, each unwanted bird should be "unhomable" so that the purchase price is completely wasted and nobody has an outlet for unwanted birds.

That doesn't make much sense to me, to be honest.

How does rescuing support breeders, or the pet bird trade? All it supports are rescues. And if there were no rescues, that wouldn't stop people from buying birds...people buying a baby animal are not thinking, "How am I going to get rid of this pet if I decide I no longer want it sometime down the line? Is there a rescue I can take it to? If not, I'd better not get it at all."

Rescuing an animal does not put money into the hands of breeders.

Edit: Rereading your post, I see what you mean -- you are talking about people reselling birds. I'm talking about rescues, which do not pay for animals, and make no profit (once they reinvest the adoption fees into running the rescue). Different thing altogether. I agree the issue is not as clear cut when we are talking about second-hand selling.

Or, you can lobby for legislation to be brought in that live animals are not allowed to be available for sale through retail shops. Only licenced breeders would be allowed to offer them for sale and licences would be subject to statutory regulations.

As in any problematic area, change cannot happen overnight and there will be a 'meanwhile' in which live animals are in the balance. What's supposed to happen to them? They can't be left to moulder away in petshops while humans sort out their affairs! If laws were passed today that prohibited the sale of live animals in shops, there would be hundreds of thousands of such animals in limbo tomorrow! Yuck!

It's breeders who should be licenced and regulated. Since birds can't be neutered easily, one of the main requirements should be that a breeder must have all birds DNA sexed and certificated and then be required to demonstrate that the genders are separated at all times, except during purposeful breeding. Here in Australia (or at least, in NSW where I live), a lot has been done to reduce pet mills by having mandatory microchipping of all pets for sale. It is an offence to buy or sell an animal which does not have a microchip implanted. In this way, all animals are traceable and, theoretically, 'spoken for'. It will take a while yet, but unscrupulous breeders and buyers will eventually dry up as prosecutions for ownership of unmicrochipped animals continue. In the meanwhile, petshops are gradually seeing the light. I posted before that many are now getting out of the live animal trade and now only selling supplies. Recently, when our Lovebirds were stolen, I was completely unable to find a petshop that could sell me any to replace them! (NB. my son was grieving terribly) So, it's happening. Slowly.

I believe we should all do as much as we can to promote what we believe, by making others aware of circumstances and by lobbying politicians. Brow-beating members of the public is hardly the way to win friends and influence people: I should think that would be the best way to make enemies and totally lose support!

Regarding the 'black and white' mentality: there's not much anyone can do to counter that except to suggest to the rude person there might be more than one correct answer to the problem. In life, I find that people who habitually insist they are in possession of the One Truth are either fundamentalists of a religion, politicians or autistic. There's no arguing with any of 'em.

The parrot overpopulation problem is not necessarily an easy thing to solve (for that matter, the pet overpopulation problem in general). Regulations on pet shops and breeders is a good idea in theory, but might turn into a horrible mess in practice.

All we can do is what we can, even if that means just giving one rescue bird a home, or raising awareness of the issue. And though I urge people to give a second-hand bird a home whenever possible, I don't look down on anyone that buys from a breeder, nor do I think they are necessarily insensitive to the issues.

 

[yann]

i know exactly how you feel!!!!~ i got banned from the mytoos forum coz i mentioned that i was going to buy keiko, my lsc2 while i understand that in other countries getting parrots from shelters is possible, where i am there is no such thing.

sometimes, given the circumstance we face and the situation we're in buying may be the only or best choice. seems sorta difficult for some people to understand:11:

 

[DallyTsuka]

i know exactly how you feel!!!!~ i got banned from the mytoos forum coz i mentioned that i was going to buy keiko, my lsc2 while i understand that in other countries getting parrots from shelters is possible, where i am there is no such thing.

sometimes, given the circumstance we face and the situation we're in buying may be the only or best choice. seems sorta difficult for some people to understand:11:

that is also a point here.

i used to be on a chinchilla forum who was so bent against breeders that they banned anyone who posted photos of male and female chinchillas together (neutered or not) or baby photos of chinchillas because it "promoted" breeding because "people will see how cute they are and decide they MUST breed instead of going to a rescue." but let me share something. accidents happen, and they still dont give a hoot. like in our case, my husband bought his first female chinchilla from an exotic petstore... 3 months later she had babies. we werent even aware she was pregnant. but nope, we would not be allowed to post those baby photos lol we dont have rescues for chinchillas in my area--theyre a very unusual pet here and very expensive. so because most people DONT have chinchillas here, there isnt really a rescue sort of thing for them. so if people want a chinchilla, they do not have the rescue option here. we either have petstores or rehomes.


i could understand if that is the case with rescues with parrots in some areas as well. sometimes, people dont understand that and paint all black and white. what do you expect? if they want a certain kind of bird, do they just have to either NOT get one, or settle for something else they may not have wanted, just for the sake of rehoming or rescuing? i think thats unfair and counterproductive. if they get a bird they "settled" for, they may not feel completely happy with the bird and may wind up selling it later on. not saying thats totally right or nothing, but you know thats a high possibility.


and rescues arent always what they are cracked up to be either. many do NOT help the pet population problems. why? because so many are so strict with rehoming their birds that none get adopted out to a suitable home, because they dont get off their high horses, or people dont want people coming to their homes to judge them 50 times a year... a lot of these rescues make it easier to adopt a human child. that isn't helping the population either.


not labeling ALL rescues like that, but some are like that and i think that they are counter productive to their said cause. thats why i think in the end, there is no black and white. if someone wants to go to a rescue, a rehome, breeder, a petstore, etc, they should not be judged for it and not feel like they have to defend themselves or worry about being shunned from the bird community.

just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[strudel]

How does rescuing support breeders, or the pet bird trade? All it supports are rescues.

The availability of somebody to take an unwanted pet does influence the irresponsible. If it became the norm that you could not, in any circumstances, dump any pet and that it was your responsibility, it would influence the amount of throught that would go into getting it in the first place.

Rescuing an animal does not put money into the hands of breeders.

It does, indirectly, by keeping the cycle going.

I'm talking about rescues, which do not pay for animals, and make no profit (once they reinvest the adoption fees into running the rescue).

They do make money from it in terms of payment of salaries and expenses. Those "employed" are making money from the sale of animals. Regardless of the motives, they are selling livestock.

Not all breeders are reputable. The problem with being judgmental is that you really have to get a lot of information to really judge people.

Snap judgments which lead to the exclusion of potentially useful members seems very short-sighted. Shrug.

They don't have the resources to properly supervise and regulate breeders. The RSPCA can't even catch and successfully prosecute all of the animal abusers they are underresourced in doing even that.

 

[aether-drifter]

i know exactly how you feel!!!!~ i got banned from the mytoos forum coz i mentioned that i was going to buy keiko, my lsc2 while i understand that in other countries getting parrots from shelters is possible, where i am there is no such thing.

sometimes, given the circumstance we face and the situation we're in buying may be the only or best choice. seems sorta difficult for some people to understand:11:

Ugh, MyToos. Yeah, they're a pretty fanatical bunch...it's a shame because I actually do think a lot of things on their website have some value. It's good for people to be prepared for the worst when getting a new "pet," and be aware of the reality of the situation. But, they are a humorless bunch and really have a nasty attitude on the forums. Don't believe in selling? Fine, I get it. But you should welcome all members to stick around and learn, if you really believe in bettering the lives of captive cockatoos (as long as they starting any debates on buying/breeding/selling).

i used to be on a chinchilla forum who was so bent against breeders that they banned anyone who posted photos of male and female chinchillas together (neutered or not) or baby photos of chinchillas because it "promoted" breeding because "people will see how cute they are and decide they MUST breed instead of going to a rescue." but let me share something. accidents happen, and they still dont give a hoot. like in our case, my husband bought his first female chinchilla from an exotic petstore... 3 months later she had babies. we werent even aware she was pregnant. but nope, we would not be allowed to post those baby photos lol

Wow, that is so beyond ridiculous I can't even.

we dont have rescues for chinchillas in my area--theyre a very unusual pet here and very expensive. so because most people DONT have chinchillas here, there isnt really a rescue sort of thing for them. so if people want a chinchilla, they do not have the rescue option here. we either have petstores or rehomes.


i could understand if that is the case with rescues with parrots in some areas as well. sometimes, people dont understand that and paint all black and white. what do you expect? if they want a certain kind of bird, do they just have to either NOT get one, or settle for something else they may not have wanted, just for the sake of rehoming or rescuing? i think thats unfair and counterproductive. if they get a bird they "settled" for, they may not feel completely happy with the bird and may wind up selling it later on. not saying thats totally right or nothing, but you know thats a high possibility.

Yep, all true. That's why I don't have an issue with all breeding and selling, I just like to say, "Think adoption first." For example, when I was interested in getting a cockatiel, I looked on Craigslist for a while and saw that there were TONS in my area. I went to a few pet stores and bird stores...cockatiels everywhere. Why would I buy a baby when I could take in a lovely adult in need of a home? For this reason, too, I would never breed cockatiels (while I live in a place where they are so plentiful). I just don't see it as responsible.

Other species with a high demand that are in very short supply are a bit of a different story. If I were going to breed ANY animal (which I have no interest in), I would do so in very limited numbers, and be extremely selective about the homes my babies were going to. That's really as responsible as a breeder can get, given the circumstances.

I personally think the overpopulation problem would be helped if people were willing to make small sacrifices when getting a new parrot. If the bird you want isn't available THAT INSTANT, RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO YOU, then maybe wait a little while, or be willing to travel a bit to adopt. If it's simply a case of the bird never being available, or travel being impossible for you, then go for the breeder.

I don't think people who really want a macaw should adopt a cockatoo just because that's all they can find in a rescue...of course nobody should take an animal in that they don't want. But if someone really wants a specific mutation, or specific subspecies, and goes to a breeder for it when there is a wonderful but slightly different-looking individual of the same species that desperately needs a home? I don't see why someone couldn't love a "normal" cockatiel, budgie or GCC just as much as a fancy mutation.

and rescues arent always what they are cracked up to be either. many do NOT help the pet population problems. why? because so many are so strict with rehoming their birds that none get adopted out to a suitable home, because they dont get off their high horses, or people dont want people coming to their homes to judge them 50 times a year... a lot of these rescues make it easier to adopt a human child. that isn't helping the population either.

I think that's an exaggeration, but I do know what you mean. Rescues can be pretty strict with their adoption policies...mainly when they require someone to live a certain distance from the rescue. Not everyone has a rescue near them. Usually they will require ONE home visit, previous bird knowledge (and/or taking a class provided by volunteers), and maybe have some additional requirements such as the potential adopter not having more than a certain amount of birds already. I applied to adopt a cockatiel from a rescue once, and I had to take a class and have a home inspection. The volunteer checked to make sure I didn't have Teflon cookwear or other dangerous stuff around the home, looked at the conditions my existing birds were living in, etc. I thought it was reasonable, all in all. My only issue was that they were concerned that I kept male and female tiels together (even though I assured them I don't and never will breed).

The availability of somebody to take an unwanted pet does influence the irresponsible. If it became the norm that you could not, in any circumstances, dump any pet and that it was your responsibility, it would influence the amount of throught that would go into getting it in the first place.

They do make money from it in terms of payment of salaries and expenses. Those "employed" are making money from the sale of animals. Regardless of the motives, they are selling livestock.

There are two local bird rescues near me. One is run entirely be volunteers, who are a network of foster homes. They do NOT make money...what they charge for adoption fees goes toward vetting new birds, organizing adoption events, etc. Nobody there is on salary.

The other is run by ONE MAN who has volunteers (again, no employees). He charges next to nothing for adoption fees, and spends a ton of his own time and money rescuing birds (not just unwanted parrots, but wildlife birds as well).

There is also the local Humane Society, who do have birds. They are more of the type of organization you're talking about, that has employees. Yes, they do get enough income to pay their employees' salaries, and to advertise the shelter, but at the end of the day anything else goes toward the animals. They offer low-cost and free dog and cat spaying/neutering, for example. They give back a lot to the community and they do help animals.

The reality is, the pet trade is not going away. Neither are irresponsible backyard breeders. Someone needs to be there to take in the animals when people decide they no longer want them.

Not all breeders are reputable. The problem with being judgmental is that you really have to get a lot of information to really judge people.

Snap judgments which lead to the exclusion of potentially useful members seems very short-sighted. Shrug.

They don't have the resources to properly supervise and regulate breeders. The RSPCA can't even catch and successfully prosecute all of the animal abusers they are underresourced in doing even that.

I would say truly responsible breeders are few and far between, unfortunately. Many of the most responsible ones seem to quit after a while, getting discouraged when they see their babies pop up on Craigslist year after year. But yes, there are some out there that do care and aren't just in it for the money. Also definitely agree that regulating breeders is pretty much impossible.

I agree that being judgemental does not get us anywhere. That's why I say, education is key.

 

[DallyTsuka]

i know exactly how you feel!!!!~ i got banned from the mytoos forum coz i mentioned that i was going to buy keiko, my lsc2 while i understand that in other countries getting parrots from shelters is possible, where i am there is no such thing.

sometimes, given the circumstance we face and the situation we're in buying may be the only or best choice. seems sorta difficult for some people to understand:11:

Ugh, MyToos. Yeah, they're a pretty fanatical bunch...it's a shame because I actually do think a lot of things on their website have some value. It's good for people to be prepared for the worst when getting a new "pet," and be aware of the reality of the situation. But, they are a humorless bunch and really have a nasty attitude on the forums. Don't believe in selling? Fine, I get it. But you should welcome all members to stick around and learn, if you really believe in bettering the lives of captive cockatoos (as long as they starting any debates on buying/breeding/selling).

i used to be on a chinchilla forum who was so bent against breeders that they banned anyone who posted photos of male and female chinchillas together (neutered or not) or baby photos of chinchillas because it "promoted" breeding because "people will see how cute they are and decide they MUST breed instead of going to a rescue." but let me share something. accidents happen, and they still dont give a hoot. like in our case, my husband bought his first female chinchilla from an exotic petstore... 3 months later she had babies. we werent even aware she was pregnant. but nope, we would not be allowed to post those baby photos lol

Wow, that is so beyond ridiculous I can't even.



Yep, all true. That's why I don't have an issue with all breeding and selling, I just like to say, "Think adoption first." For example, when I was interested in getting a cockatiel, I looked on Craigslist for a while and saw that there were TONS in my area. I went to a few pet stores and bird stores...cockatiels everywhere. Why would I buy a baby when I could take in a lovely adult in need of a home? For this reason, too, I would never breed cockatiels (while I live in a place where they are so plentiful). I just don't see it as responsible.

Other species with a high demand that are in very short supply are a bit of a different story. If I were going to breed ANY animal (which I have no interest in), I would do so in very limited numbers, and be extremely selective about the homes my babies were going to. That's really as responsible as a breeder can get, given the circumstances.

I personally think the overpopulation problem would be helped if people were willing to make small sacrifices when getting a new parrot. If the bird you want isn't available THAT INSTANT, RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO YOU, then maybe wait a little while, or be willing to travel a bit to adopt. If it's simply a case of the bird never being available, or travel being impossible for you, then go for the breeder.

I don't think people who really want a macaw should adopt a cockatoo just because that's all they can find in a rescue...of course nobody should take an animal in that they don't want. But if someone really wants a specific mutation, or specific subspecies, and goes to a breeder for it when there is a wonderful but slightly different-looking individual of the same species that desperately needs a home? I don't see why someone couldn't love a "normal" cockatiel, budgie or GCC just as much as a fancy mutation.



I think that's an exaggeration, but I do know what you mean. Rescues can be pretty strict with their adoption policies...mainly when they require someone to live a certain distance from the rescue. Not everyone has a rescue near them. Usually they will require ONE home visit, previous bird knowledge (and/or taking a class provided by volunteers), and maybe have some additional requirements such as the potential adopter not having more than a certain amount of birds already. I applied to adopt a cockatiel from a rescue once, and I had to take a class and have a home inspection. The volunteer checked to make sure I didn't have Teflon cookwear or other dangerous stuff around the home, looked at the conditions my existing birds were living in, etc. I thought it was reasonable, all in all. My only issue was that they were concerned that I kept male and female tiels together (even though I assured them I don't and never will breed).

They do make money from it in terms of payment of salaries and expenses. Those "employed" are making money from the sale of animals. Regardless of the motives, they are selling livestock.

There are two local bird rescues near me. One is run entirely be volunteers, who are a network of foster homes. They do NOT make money...what they charge for adoption fees goes toward vetting new birds, organizing adoption events, etc. Nobody there is on salary.

The other is run by ONE MAN who has volunteers (again, no employees). He charges next to nothing for adoption fees, and spends a ton of his own time and money rescuing birds (not just unwanted parrots, but wildlife birds as well).

There is also the local Humane Society, who do have birds. They are more of the type of organization you're talking about, that has employees. Yes, they do get enough income to pay their employees' salaries, and to advertise the shelter, but at the end of the day anything else goes toward the animals. They offer low-cost and free dog and cat spaying/neutering, for example. They give back a lot to the community and they do help animals.

The reality is, the pet trade is not going away. Neither are irresponsible backyard breeders. Someone needs to be there to take in the animals when people decide they no longer want them.

Not all breeders are reputable. The problem with being judgmental is that you really have to get a lot of information to really judge people.

Snap judgments which lead to the exclusion of potentially useful members seems very short-sighted. Shrug.

They don't have the resources to properly supervise and regulate breeders. The RSPCA can't even catch and successfully prosecute all of the animal abusers they are underresourced in doing even that.

I would say truly responsible breeders are few and far between, unfortunately. Many of the most responsible ones seem to quit after a while, getting discouraged when they see their babies pop up on Craigslist year after year. But yes, there are some out there that do care and aren't just in it for the money. Also definitely agree that regulating breeders is pretty much impossible.

I agree that being judgemental does not get us anywhere. That's why I say, education is key.

exactly. ive heard of some rescues doing MULTIPLE visits. one visit, sure i totally understand, but some frequently visit after adopting the bird too, which after awhile its like... really? ive also heard of some that are so strict on their adopting out rules but then complain they cant rehome no birds. and when i mean frequent visits i mean like multiple, and are supposedly mandatory and will judge lots of things that arent too big of a deal. like your rescue there that was a little put off on the mixed gender thing. thats a little too much, because personally i feel its a bit cruel to split up a truly bonded pair of nonbreeding birds, just to please a rescue. i know you didnt do that, just making a point here. they didnt sound too bad though, but not all rescues are good, but not all are bad. theyre good and bad just like breeders and just like petstores.

and i am on the same page with you on the mutations and such. people want "different" so they over look the really awesome pet in a "normal" or "common" bird.

i like the notion of good breeders and good rescues. and even good petstores. i'd have no hesitation buying from a good petstore. sure, it "creates" a spot for another bird, but if they take good care of the birds there, whats the problem? gives another bird a chance at a good life. people tend to forget that, which is what you get when you see groups like this one on facebook who just condemn "ALL" purchases. but thats me. i'd look into a rescue if they had a bird i was interested in, i'd look into a good breeder... it just depends really.

its nice to see all sides of the coin without really judging everyone here. thats why i like this forum best. there's prorescue, probreeders, even some propestore (smaller portion, but you get my point) and those who disagree with eachother all disagree in a respectable way.


i've rehomed 3 of my birds, and one from a breeder. and from my personal experience, i'd turn to a good breeder before rehoming myself. thats my personal choice though from my own experiences. doesnt mean i disagree with rehoming or rescuing. just my personal preference. does that make me a bad person? i dont think so. and just because i dont agree with all rescues, doesnt mean i think anyone who adopts from those kinds of rescues are bad either. to me, it just doesnt matter, as long as the birds in your care NOW are in a good loving home who does the best they can for them and does the best THEY can do.

a lot of bird communities are very black and white and its sad, and makes people not want to go on them and mingle with others and learn. having experience on some forums, i will say that bird, rodent, and fish forums are among the most judgmental and harsh forums there are, but ive also seen some pretty nasty parenting forums thus far as well! all in all, its rare to find a good accepting forum such as this one.

 

[MonicaMc]

As far as breeders are concerned, there is no overpopulation of birds. Also, they are very against laws about how they breed.

Breeding Laws ? Hybrid Breeding Ban | Voren's Aviaries Inc


I recall about one law being proposed, which basically made breeders "pet stores", and thus they had to follow some pet store regulations and essentially be "open to the public", even if the breeder practiced a closed aviary.


The AFA fights proposed laws that could potentially harm keeping and breeding parrots within captivity. This includes the ban on moving blue throated macaws across state lines, something that golden conures are already subjected to.

Welcome to the American Federation of Aviculture



Then there is the AWC, which helps to support legislation to protect captive birds. (only just found this website! Found via AWA - https://awic.nal.usda.gov/government-and-professional-resources/federal-laws/animal-welfare-act)

Avian Welfare Coalition



Also found this website about current laws in various states.

Current Law and Suggested Approaches to Improving Captive Bird Welfare


And there is this website.

http://animalsandsociety.org/main/



As many "anti-breeders" are out there, I wonder how many of them have looked into the breeders side of things.... preferably from a reputable breeder.

 

[aether-drifter]

i like the notion of good breeders and good rescues. and even good petstores. i'd have no hesitation buying from a good petstore. sure, it "creates" a spot for another bird, but if they take good care of the birds there, whats the problem?

My issue with pet stores is, because they are businesses, at the end of the day very very few of them are going to refuse a sale even when the person interested in the animal is obviously a moron who has done no research whatsoever and doesn't care. I worked in a pet store for a while, and it was soul-crushing not being able to refuse sales.

If there are pet stores who actually screen homes, that's awesome. I've just never run into any.

If I owned a bird store, it would sell 95% supplies, and then have a few parrots up for adoption through local rescues or on consignment. And maybe a few from good breeders now and then. But I would definitely require an application, and screen homes.

 

[aether-drifter]

As far as breeders are concerned, there is no overpopulation of birds. Also, they are very against laws about how they breed.

Breeding Laws ? Hybrid Breeding Ban | Voren's Aviaries Inc

Howard Voren is the man that has bragged about being the one to invent the "mass production" of baby parrots. :18_crazy: His words. As far from a responsible breeder as you can possibly get, IMHO. Knowledgeable maybe, bot not caring or compassionate. Of course according to breeders like him, there is no overpopulation problem.