Periodic vomiting

[DaBirbs]

Over the past 2 weeks, I've had two of our cockatiels puke all over me in a violent head shaking motion. The direction of the vomit is in a straight line spreading out 2-3 feet so I know it's not simple regurgitation. The vomit consists of a combination of Zupreme formula mixed with Cerelac (since they won't eat straight Zupreme for some reason) and fully undigested seeds. Last night was the second time one of them did this. The episode for both birds was about 4 rounds of vomiting that occurred over 10 minutes. The feet of the one yesterday was cold and she sat slightly puffed up for about 15 minutes after it happened but then about 30 minutes later she was eating seeds again as if nothing happened. I've checked the weight of both and it has remained steady at or above 100 grams.

They're both 7 months old so they are beginning to molt. I know that cockatiels are thespians when it comes to faking their health but both birds reassumed normal behavior (eating, preening, playing, destroying etc) with hot feet and otherwise being bundles of infinite energy so I didn't see any reason to take them to vet unless someone has some insight to the contrary.

We did experience having a 2 month old get attacked by his sibling (probably sensing illness), now our eldest male, that subsequently vomited all over himself head to foot stopped eating or otherwise couldn't keep anything down. We took him to the vet the next day that gave him antibiotics and vacuumed him for a possible blockage but sadly he didn't make it through the night even after we gave him a solution of dextrose, dribbled down the side of his beak, in the hopes of keeping him hydrated.

So after seeing two extremes of vomiting does anyone feel that I should be concerned about the case of the recent episode or otherwise have some insight into why it happens should there not be an underlying illness?

 

[ChristaNL]

My first reaction: a *real* CAV asap.
(one that does not stuff antibiotics in a bird without any diagnosis, just on the offchance it might help ... is not what I would call a real informed vet)

Violent throwing up/away like this is not normal.
(but you know that already).

How do they smell? (Stinking from the beak? Or normal?)

2 out of 4 birds explosive-puking is strange
(I do not want to cry wolf, it may just be something harmless like a bad batch of chop the previous day, but it could be a symptom of something really. really bad)

 

[DaBirbs]

We don't have an avian vet (as far as I know) in the area without having to get on an airline, unfortunately.

No strange smells came from either of the two recent cases and if I wasn't there to see them do it I'm not sure I would have known what I was looking at with respect to the aftermath. The recent cases was the exact opposite of the case of the one that we lost since his vomit was watery and sticky while completely covering his chest and head. It looked like he just took a bath. I don't remember that there was a smell but I wouldn't doubt it.

I'd definitely be very concerned if it happened within a few days of one another but the incidents were at least 2 weeks apart with others in the household saying closer to 3 weeks apart.

The one that vomited yesterday has been eating like a pig today like any other day, spent time playing on a ladder bridge swing, chewed random things around the house, spent some time sitting on me enjoying a head scratch, and her feet felt warm. When she vomited yesterday she spent about 20 minutes eating seeds and some formula before bed as if to replace what came up. Her droppings looked normal as well. The last thing I was looking for was how the other birds treated her due to previous experience of the non-sick bird attacking the sick one right before the vomiting began. Their behavior toward one another was normal.

Thanks for your reply - I will keep monitoring her for anything unusual.

 

[ChristaNL]

actually it that timeframe that has me concerned...


but maybe they will just bounce back.
Birds are like kids sometimes: nothing wrong - complete mess and back to normal

 

[EllenD]

It's the Ceralac!!!! You can't feed birds human baby cereals/formulas, specifically Ceralac or Similac, it's absolutely loaded with extra Iron!!! And combined with baby-bird hand-feeding formula, which is also very nutrient-dense and contains higher Iron content than regular bird seed-mix or pellets. it's causing Iron-Storage-Syndrome, of which violent vomiting is one of the first symptoms! Stop all forms of human baby food immediately!!!! I'd also stop the baby-bird handfeeding formula too for the at least the next couple of days. I'm sorry that it already killed one of them, sometimes they can get through it, sometimes they can't, I've seen it happen a few times when they have been fed nothing but Ceralac or Similac as their "handfeeding formula" when no commercial baby bird hand-feeding formula is available, and the high amount of Iron builds-up in their livers over time and eventually makes them violently ill and eventually will kill them...I think in this case it was probably the combination of mixing both the nutrient-dense, baby bird handfeeding formula with the Iron-loaded human baby cereal/formula that did it quite quickly...

Birds cannot handle much Iron at all, their bodies cannot process it and it causes a toxicity/poisoning reaction. Bird food, whether pellets or seed mix, or hand-feeding formula, is made specifically with little Iron content for this reason...Human baby formula is the opposite, it's loaded with extra Iron...This happens often in middle-eastern countries where they can't get hand-feeding formula for birds, so they feed Ceralac...And this is what happens...

Why are you feeding them hand-feeding formula? Are they not yet weaned? Either way you obviously need to stop all of the Ceralac or any other human baby formulas/cereals immediately, and push lots of water if you can...Actually Pedialyte is best, and let their systems clear out. I don't know what to tell you to feed them because I don't know if they are weaned or not...How old are they?

 

[EllenD]

I'm hoping that the OP sees my post and stops feeding them the Ceralac, or the rest of them are going to die too...Sometimes they can be okay with it, but obviously the combination of both the Ceralac mixed with baby bird hand-feeding formula, which is also rich in vitamins/minerals including a bit higher Iron content then normal seed-mix or pellets, is what is killing them/making them sick.

When I said that I couldn't recommend what to feed them because I didn't know if they were weaned yet or not, I meant what to feed them to counteract the Iron...You said they "won't eat Zupreem" so that's why you're feeding them the formula mixed with the Ceralac, but I'm not clear about whether they aren't eating solid food yet at all, as in they aren't yet weaned, or they just won't eat Zupreem pellets, so you've decided to keep feeding them the hand-feeding formula and the Ceralac...Either way, obviously the Ceralac and any other human-baby formulas/cereals needs to be stopped immediately, as should the hand-feeding formula because of it's Iron content as well...They need to eat lots of water-filled foods right now, such as fresh veggies and fruit...If you have access to regular jars of babyfood, meaning the cheap jars of babyfood that are "stage 2" and contain nothing else but water and greenbeans, or water and peas, or water and squash, etc., nothing else but water and a veggie or fruit, then syringe feeding them that for a day, multiple times throughout the day, will help to flush out the Iron and get their Liver and Kidneys back to normal (as long as they haven't already absorbed too much Iron from the Ceralac/formula mix, like the one who died did)...Also, please make sure that you do not feed your birds ANY CITRUS FRUIT OR TOMATOES AT ALL!!!
Vitamin C enhances the body's absorption of Iron from all food they eat and keeps them from just excreting it, so any feeding of Citrus Fruit or Tomatoes will just make them worse at this point, and that means either fresh Citrus Fruit/Tomatoes or any jars of baby food that contain Citrus Fruit or Tomato. This includes Tomatoes, Oranges, Grapefruit, Lemon, Lime, and also stay away from any "Tropical Fruits" for the time-being as well, because they are also very high in Vitamin C, such as Mango, Papaya, Guava, Kiwi, Star Fruit (very high), Passionfruit, Dragonfruit, etc.

Just as a side-note, keeping in-mind I have no idea how old these birds are or if they are weaned onto solid food or not yet, but feeding hand-feeding formula to an adult bird isn't good anyway, unless they are sick and refusing to eat all solid foods. Otherwise, if they are weaned adults, then they need to eat food that isn't as nutrient-dense as the hand-feeding formula is, and if they are babies who aren't yet weaned, for the next day or two I would hold-back on the hand-feeding formula (and of course throw out the Ceralac or any other human-baby formula/cereal) and feed them just the jars of baby food that is only water and a veggie or fruit and nothing else, or puree some fresh veggies or fruit and water/Pedialyte in a blender and syringe feed them that for the next day and hold-off on the hand-feeding formula for a day or two because they can't take anymore Iron, their Livers need a break...If they are weaned and will eat a seed-mix or pellet, then definitely feed them that from now on, as well as any fresh veggies or fresh fruit, as the water-content will be good for them for the next couple of days.

I've talked about this issue before on here and gotten criticism about how Iron-Storage-Disease/Syndrome is not something to worry about, but this is why I always push the issue. The only other time I've seen it effect birds being hand-fed formula is when it's been someone from another country hand-feeding babies and they typically do use a human-baby formula or cereal mix, namely Ceralac or Similac because that's all they have access to, and then their babies start vomiting and die, and they can't figure out why...Right on the front of most packages of Ceralac, Similac, and most other human-baby formula/cereals it says something about being "Fortified with Iron" or just "With Iron Added", because it's so important that human-babies get extra Iron every day. Unfortunately with birds they just cannot handle Iron!

 

[ChristaNL]

Whoa...nice catch Ellen!


I never heard of Cerelac so I asumed it was just another type of birdfood.
Why anyone would feed their birds something designed for the young of a completely different species is so weird it never even occured to me!

 

[EllenD]

Whoa...nice catch Ellen!


I never heard of Cerelac so I asumed it was just another type of birdfood.
Why anyone would feed their birds something designed for the young of a completely different species is so weird it never even occured to me!

I've seen it several times on here with people from countries in the middle-east who have bred their Alexandrines and are hand-feeding the chicks. They don't have access to baby bird hand-feeding formula, but they can buy either Ceralac or Similac, and the Ceralac is a human-baby cereal type of formula, so they think it's okay, not knowing that pretty-much ALL human baby formula/cereal is fortified to the gills with extra Iron, so much so that most of the packaging says it right on the front...

In this case, I have no idea why the OP is mixing baby bird hand-feeding formula WITH the Ceralac, but that's way too much Iron...the hand-feeding formula has much more Iron in it than pellets or seed-mixes do, then add the Ceralac that is loaded with Iron and that's what is causing them to projectile-vomit, and the one to actually pass-away. Hopefully the remaining bird's livers can eliminate the rest of the Iron in their systems and they'll be okay, I just hope they see this, because if they keep feeding them Ceralac multiple times a day the rest of them are going to die as well...

I know the OP obviously didn't know about the Iron Storage Disease and the human-baby formula, I don't have a clue if these birds are young or adults, or if they are even weaned or they are just feeding them formula for some other reason (they stated they "wouldn't eat the Zupreem", so I have no idea if that means they are weaned but won't eat the pellets, or they aren't weaned yet, or they are trying to force-wean them, etc.)...I just hope they saw this and stopped all of the human-baby formula immediately, because obviously they had all already reached toxic-levels of Iron if they were all projectile vomiting already...

 

[Laurasea]

Dang I hope they come back and see!!! Danger no human baby food ! Deadly!!! Great catch Ellen!!!!! I was trying to read only happy stories today so wasn't reading the sick ones posts.. so sad

 

[DaBirbs]

After reading everything written here I guess I need to clarify a few things.

The one that died did so after 6 days of getting him from a breeder at an age of 2 months. At the time we were giving him seeds and baby bird formula that didn't contain Cerelac. He went from healthy to vomiting suddenly while his 6 week old sibling, that we had for 6 days at that point also, had no issues. He now around 9 months old. It turned out that the breeder lost several others in the batch who experienced similar vomiting circumstances several weeks after they were weaned as well.

Edit: As I wrote above, the one that died 8 months ago was vomiting in a completely contrast than what has happened to the two recently and it was clear from the beginning that he was visibly very sick as he couldn't keep anything down until the end a day or so later.

I wrote above that the two that vomited within a span of 2-3 weeks of one another are now around 7 months of age and the one that died 2 months before we got them at 3 weeks of age in the third week of March this year. They weaned fairly quickly, and without issue, around 2 months of age to everything BUT pellets. They absolutely refuse to eat pellets. They'll play with the pellets i.e. crush them but will not swallow them. We've tried several suggested tricks of sweetening or softening the pellets but that makes them no less inedible or unidentifiable as food. The brand we have is Roudybush and, strangely enough, we've given some of the pellets to people we know with other young cockatiels who devour them in full and on the first day that they receive them and at the same age we tried to introduce pellets to our own.

They are seed-a-holics. We've tried removing their seeds and giving them nothing but corn, greens, and pellets during the day. I didn't know about citrus fruit like mango, but they're literally scared of mango, blueberries, raspberries, strawberries etc so no issue with them eating those either way. We only bought the baby bird formula back into their diet 2 months or so ago because we were afraid of them eating nothing but seeds and treating corn, greens, and pellets like chew toys rather than food and suffering from a vitamin/mineral deficiency. Not surprisingly they won't eat the formula as well unless we add about 30-40% Cerelac. Now that said Cerelac makes up literally about 5% of their daily diet or less if weighed against everything else they eat. We're well aware that they shouldn't be eating Cerelac as a staple and I'd go further and say that human babies shouldn't be eating it either.

It has now been 48 hours since the last vomiting episode (3 weeks ago for the other one) and she is sitting on me as I type this. Her droppings look normal and she is her normal crazy 7 month old self.

 

[DaBirbs]

Spinach and lentils has approximately 4mg of iron per 100 grams with pumpkin seeds having approximately 16 mg per 100 grams. Scanning through other seeds and their derivatives tells me that iron is a ubiquitous nutrient and in high concentration per gram. Broccoli and other greens are rich in iron. So while Cerelac is higher per 100 grams of iron (vs green vegetables but not varieties of seeds), seeing as how it's such a small % of their diet makes it difficult to pinpoint that as the reason for the two isolated vomiting episodes that have had, so far, no after effects whatsoever.

That said I'm going to try pellets again, even if I have to hire someone to sit there and have them eat out of hooman hands (weird way to get them to eat their veggies in a much larger quantity per sitting).

 

[EllenD]

Well I'm glad you know you shouldn't be feeding them any human baby formula/cereal...Once again, regardless of how much Iron content certain veggies or anything else has, I've seen both Ceralac and Similac kill numerous birds, and it's because you're not looking at the amount of Iron versus the amount that you're feeding them...I would absolutely stop feeding them any Cerelac, Similac, or any other human baby cereal/formula immediately...

If they are adult birds that are fully weaned, then they shouldn't be eating any baby bird hand-feeding formula at all either, not unless they are sick and have become anorexic and require tube-feeding, or unless ordered by an Avian Vet to treat a nutritional deficiency...It contains way too many calories, fat, carbs, and is way too nutrient-dense for adult birds. They will at best become overweight, and at worst develop Fatty Liver Disease/other Liver Disease/conditions, Kidney Disease, Thyroid Disease, GI disturbances, etc.

If they will eat seed-mix on their own, as you said the reason you're doing this in the first place is because they are "seed-addicts" and won't eat pellets on their own, then simply buy a healthier, low-fat seed-mix that contains no sunflower seeds, no nuts at all including peanuts, and no dried corn kernels or dried cracked corn...There are many seed-mixes like this that contain healthier seeds and then a variety of healthy grains, legumes, dried veggies and fruit, etc. Let them eat one of these, as it's way better for adult, weaned birds than hand-feeding formula meant for baby birds who are rapidly growing and developing and need the extra calories, fat, and nutrients, and it's obviously way better than any human baby formula or cereal....And you can buy them at any Petco, PetSmart, etc. This is what adult, weaned birds are meant to eat, it's what their bodies are designed to eat...not hand-feeding formula. They were projectile vomiting for a reason, it could just be causing them GI disturbance, but more than likely their livers can't handle all that "nutrition"...

Higgins Vita Seed California Blend and Tropimix are two wonderful, low-fat, healthy seed mixes available at any Petco that they will eat that contain no nuts, no sunflower seeds, and no dried corn at all...Even Higgins Safflower Gold (which they will absolutely eat without an issue) is much better than feeding them formula, and it doesn't contain any nuts, sunflower seeds, or dried corn either, but is more "seed dense" than the Higgins California Blend or the Tropimix. So they will definitely eat it...Feed them that as their regular, daily staple diet, and then work on transitioning them over to a pellet staple slowly, over time, trying different transition methods/programs and also trying different pellets...

I don't know what pellet varieties you've tried to feed them, but you only mentioned that "they won't eat Zupreem" pellets...My birds were not huge fans of Zupreem pellets either. I only ever fed them the Zupreem Natural and the Zupreem Veggie variety of pellets, because the Zupreem Fruit and the Zupreem Nut pellets are both loaded with sugar and/or fat, and the sugar in the Zupreem Fruit turns into fat in their livers anyway...And honestly, I got a sample of Zupreem Fruit in the mail after filling out a coupon thing, so I separated it into 4 portions and mixed it in with their other pellets, and they wouldn't touch the Zupreem Fruit...I fed Zupreem Natural for a good year or so until my CAV told me that it wasn't nearly the best pellet available, and was hardly better than feeding them only a seed-mix because of the tons of "fillers" they use, such as corn meal...

So last year I decided to change pellets, and I was dreading it because I know how difficult they can be about it...They were also getting 1/4 cup of Higgins Vita Seed California Blend seed-mix each day with their daily staple of pellets, as I am one who believes that their bodies/GI Tracts were made to eat seed, as were their minds made to eat and "shell" seeds, it's just all about WHAT seed-mix you feed them and making sure it has no nuts, sunflower seeds, or dried corn kernels/cracked corn in it, as captive birds don't fly miles and miles a day to burn-off the fat and calories contained in these fatty ingredients...They absolutely LOVED the Higgins Vita Seed California Blend seed-mix, even though it doesn't look like a typical seed-mix and is full of dried veggies,
dried herbs, legumes, grains, etc. So I kept feeding them the Higgins California Blend seed-mix and then sent for samples of different pellets to try.

I tried Tops and the Harrison's first, and of course they wouldn't go near them. I kept at it with the Harrison's, buying a huge bag (I don't remember if it was the course or the fine), and I was standing my ground and following Harrison's amazing "Pellet-Transition Schedule"...Then all 4 of them had their yearly Wellness-Exams, and I usually take my Green Cheek and my Quaker at the same time, and then on a different day I take my Senegal and my Cockatiel...So I took my Green Cheek and my Quaker, and both of their weights were down just a bit, but it worried me because they were right in the middle of changing pellet varieties...I talked to my long-time CAV about how I was switching them from the Zupreem Natural over to Harrison's but it wasn't going well at all, and they hated Tops and wouldn't touch it at all...That's when he asked me if I had tried Tropican pellets...I hadn't ever even heard of Tropican pellets before he mentioned them that day. He told me that some of his colleagues/friends from Vet School who were Veterinarians at Penn Veterinary Medical School (where he went as well) had started recommending Tropican pellets and Tropimix seed-mix to clients who refused to eat pellets in-general. So my CAV had switched his Greenwing Macaw over to Tropican pellets and he said that he started eating them right away with no issues. So I left his office and went straight to Petco, where he said I could buy the Tropican pellets (they call them Tropican "granules" on the bag), and if they liked them then he would give me some coupon-codes for places online to buy it much more cheaply (though the Tropican is't that expensive at all when compared to Harrison's or Tops anyway)...

So I ran to Petco and bought two different bags of Tropican pellets. Tropican has several different sizes (all the pellets are exactly the same, just different sizes) and I really liked that because I have 3 different sizes of birds...They have a "Cockatiel" size, with a picture of a Cockatiel on the bag, which is the smallest (I think they have one smaller for Budgies, but I didn't buy them, so the "Cockatiel" size is the smallest I buy), and then they also have a "Conure" size, which has a picture of a Blue-Crowed Conure on the front of the bag...I brought them home and gave the "Cockatiel" sized pellets to my Cockatiel and my Green Cheek Conure, and then I gave the "Conure" size pellets to my Quaker Parrot and my Senegal Parrot...The only bird who didn't eat them ALL, every pellet I gave them right then and there on the spot, was my Cockatiel, who ate quite a few of them. So that sold me...However, I had to play around a bit with what sizes I bought. The "Cockatiel" size pellets are very small, and are definitely the right size for my Cockatiel...However, my Green Cheek, though actually smaller than my Cockatiel, likes to hold his food/pellets with his foot, and they were too small for him to do so...And so do my Quaker and my Senegal...I knew where this was going, lol..

 

[EllenD]

To finish my long, boring, rambling story that actually does have a point, I swear it does:

In the end I started ordering 3 different sizes of Tropican pellets: I get the "Cockatiel" size for my Cockatiel, the "Conure" size for my Green Cheek and my Quaker, and then for my Senegal, who HAS TO hold each individual pellet as he eats them, I had to get an even larger size, so I got the next size up, which is the "African Gray" size...They also have one larger size for "Macaws and Cockatoos" that are huge. But my Senegal is good with the "African Gray" size...So every month I order 4 different bags of Tropican Pellets, 1 bag of Cockatiel, 2 bags of Conure, and 1 bag of African Gray. And they absolutely LOVE THEM. Even my Cockatiel, who is picky as all-hell, now eats her pellets every day...And to make things even better/easier/cheaper, I also switched to their Tropimix seed-mix, because not only is it basically exactly the same as the Higgins California Blend seed-mix, even looks exactly the same, the Tropimix seed-mix also contains some Tropican pellets! So even when they are eating their 1/4 cup of healthy,
low-fat, sunflower seed/nut/dried corn free seed-mix, they are also getting more Tropican pellets in their seed-mix! And that's why I really love the Tropican pellets/Tropimix seed-mix daily diet, because it's healthy, it's low-fat, it's low-sugar (the Tropican pellets are sweetened only with natural fruit-juice not-from-concentrate), the Tropimix seed-mix is extremely varied and contains many, many different types of seeds, grains, legumes, dried herbs, dried veggies, etc., AND because even if they leave some of their Tropican pellets for the day, they still eat all of their Tropimix seed-mix every day, which also contains Tropican pellets, so they're getting more pellets every day anyway! And I don't think they know it, which is smart, they think they're eating a seed/grain/veggie mix but they are actually getting the same pellets in it that are in their pellet-bowl. And the Tropican pellets smell exactly like JuicyFruit gum! Yes, I've eaten them, I always try everything that I feed my birds, and they are pretty good! Much tastier than the Zupreem Natural or Fruit pellets!

***So, main point of my rambling here is that if your Cockatiels are currently "Seed-Addicts", that's okay, they are adult Cockatiels that are weaned and they are much better-off eating a seed-mix meant for adults than being fed hand-feeding formula meant for baby birds...Not only is the hand-feeding formula too high in calories, fat, carbs, and way too nutrient-dense for an adult bird, but it also encourages hormonal behavior for a number of different reasons, first because it's warm and mushy and all warm, mushy foods encourage hormonal behavior because it is what they were fed as babies, but the fact that it is actually baby bird hand-feeding formula also often causes some regression in adult birds and they start displaying typical baby-bird behaviors if they are fed it with a syringe on a continual basis (tube/Crop feeding them handfeeding formula with a crop-needle is different, it doesn't elicit a "feeding-response" and they do not actively participate in the process when they are tube/crop fed with a crop-needle)...So if your adult Cockatiels absolutely refuse to eat Zupreem pellets, obviously there are other pellets you can try, but more importantly is to first stop feeding them hand-feeding formula meant for rapidly developing, growing baby birds,
as they are much better-off eating a seed-mix meant for adult birds; and just because they are eating a seed-mix as their daily staple diet doesn't mean that it has to be a "bad" thing at all, you just have to choose a healthy, quality, low-fat seed-mix that contains no sunflower seeds, no peanuts/nuts of any kind, and no dried/cracked corn,
but rather is a varied-mix of lower-fat seeds, grains, legumes, herbs, veggies, fruit, etc. And once you make that switch and get them eating a healthy seed-mix meant for adult birds and are no-longer feeding them any kind of formula daily, THEN you don't have to rush with transitioning them onto a pellet staple, you can take your time and find a pellet brand/type that they like. If they don't like Zupreem then that's actually not a bad thing, because as someone who fed Zupreem Natural for over a year to her own birds I can tell you that it's not that great a pellet...not horrible by any means, but not great. I'm an extremely pleased with the Tropican pellets and the Tropimix seed-mix daily diet combo, and if the Avian Vets at the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine recommend Tropican/Tropimix to their clients and feed it to their own parrots, then that's good enough for me...Worth a try....

***By the way, the Tropican pellets in any Petco store are sold in 2-pound bags for $9.99, but on Chewy.com they are only $7.99 a bag...I go through one bag a month for each bird basically, so I order 4 bags a month...But keep in-mind that I'm also feeding Tropimix seed-mix too, if I didn't I'd go through 2 bag of the Tropican pellets per bird per month...But again, the Tropimix seed-mix contains Tropican pellets, so it's really a two-for-one kind of deal. In a Petco store, a 2 pound bag of Tropimix seed-mix costs around $7, but on Chewy.com they cost $5! (that's the "Cockatiel" size of Tropimix, which is absolutely the size you would want to try for your guys)...

***What I would suggest you do is to NOT BUY ANY TROPICAN PELLETS, but rather just buy a bag of the "Cockatiel" size Tropimix seed-mix first. That way you would be able to see if they like either the Tropimix seed-mix and/or the Tropican pellets since they are also included in the Tropimix...You can't lose, spend $5 on Chewy.com or $7 inside any Petco, if they hate it you're only losing at most $7, but if they like it then you've just solved your dietary/bird-food issues completely! Then you could order the Tropican pellets if you wanted to, OR what my CAV told me a lot of people are doing, since he recommends that all his clients feed pellets as their staple but also that they get a small amount of a healthy seed-mix each day too, is they are just feeding them the Tropimix seed-mix as their daily staple and that's it, no separate bowl of only-pellets, because that way they are getting both the pellets and the healthy seed-mix at one time. I am actually thinking of doing this as well, it makes sense, there are quite a lot of the Tropican pellets in the Tropimix seed-mix, it makes sense and it's a lot easier, cheaper, etc...And then I'll literally be able to feed 4 parrots both a healthy pellet and a healthy seed-mix for under $40 a month...