White Front sleeping problem

[Pajarita]

Thank You Pajarita...
Yes, I took a look at the link that posted those pictures and looked at the xray from 2011 and the latest ones, and I do see that the liver is larger in the 2013 xrays.
Also, in Toots's 2013 xray, that air sac area is not black, but has a "white haze" in it that could be liquid.
I just wonder if there is a possibility that an issue with the xray's contrast is different between the xray's? If you look at the xray taken in 2011, the light to dark contrast is much less, the muscles are lighter, the bones are lighter, the overall contrast is just different between the two... I know they were taken 2 years apart by different vets and different machines, but I would think that the calibration has to be the same.
Very confusing!
I guess I will just have to make an appt. to see the specialist and take all my records with me.
Thank you for your input and observations! I appreciate it!
Bill

Yes, I also thought that maybe the 'whitish' empty space was due to something with the X-Ray itself but just in case...

His liver doesn't look so much enlarged as swollen, which would fit the high monocytes.

 

[pomonabill221]

GEEZZZZ... seems like I can't win!!!
I will forgo the cheerios as well....

 

[pomonabill221]

Well we'll see what the specialist says about the xrays, and Toots.
I just hope the Dr. doesn't needs more xrays... his office visit is 220 and xrays are 400, and I just don't know if I can afford all this, but Toots may just need it, so I will have to talk to the Dr. IF xrays are needed and see if there are other options/ideas.

WHY do my birds seem to get sick when I am unemployed?!?!??!?!
My Grey got ill the last time I was unemployed as well, and I spent over 1000 on her, just to find her kidney had failed.
WHY WHY WHY?????

 

[Pajarita]

Explain the situation and he might forgo new tests - after all, it's not as if the ones you are taking with you are old. But I would make the investment in a bile acid test. I don't know why AVs don't recommend this test to any parrot over ten years of age, liver is always a problem with them and it's easy to cure if caught in time.

 

[pomonabill221]

Yes Pajarita, when I called and got pricing I told the receptionist my financial situation and she told me to tell the Dr.

I did get my last two vets to fax Toot's records to the specialist and I am taking the xrays along with the video samples of Toots's sleeping from May and this week so he can see the progression as well. Don't know if he will look at the video, but I am going to take everything I can think of.
I did check when I made the appt. change, and they did get all the faxes and the Dr. did look at them, so he has a history and more information.

I would imagine that the Dr. will want to do the Bile test, but I will mention this as well.
Also, I changed from next Sat. the 10th to Wednesday the 7th. I did this because Toots seems to slowly be getting worse.

In all reality, I half expect that Toots may not make it to Wednesday, or the Dr. will find advanced liver and/or kidney damage.
I don't want to jump too quick, but I am trying to come to that reality that I may have to let Toots go as I will NOT put him through alot of tests and put him through alot of agony and pain just so I can say "I have a White Front Amazon"!!!

I WILL NOT DO THIS TO TOOTS!!!!

I did this to Al, my TAG and the love of my life, but I have learned that it should be in the interest of the bird, NOT the owner, to let them go when they are suffering! She died by herself in the arms of the vet... I still feel very sad that she was NOT in MY arms!

Sometimes, we are so unfair to these wonderful creatures, and our guilt/ego/greed gets in the way.

I gotta stop... sorry
I will update as things change!
Bill

 

[ShellyBorg]

I am pulling for you and Toots!

 

[henpecked]

hang in there,, hope they can find an answer.

 

[JerseyWendy]

HUGS, Bill!!!!

 

[Pajarita]

I agree 100% on not letting them suffer but don't give up hope yet. I took in a cockatiel in the last stages of liver and kidney failure ten or eleven months ago, took him to the vet and he said he was not going to last two months but he is still alive today and, believe it or not, he is even a bit better (gained weight, no longer has the awful polyuria he came with, perches/preens and bathes -he didn't before- and he is molting right on schedule). The liver is the only organ that regenerates itself and, although kidneys are more difficult because we don't really have any real good herbals for them, we do have some supplements that work and there is always the low protein diet change and extra hydration.

If I were you and regardless of whether they find or not what he has, I would eliminate the pellets and put him on a fresh food diet with liver and kidney supplements. It never hurts and it can't but help older birds.

 

[pomonabill221]

Thank You Pagarita for your ideas and suggestions AND your hopeful experience.

I am giving both my guys fresh vegs. every day and they both eat it all up with a vengance, so Toots's appetite is still very good!

He does drink water as well, but I noticed that it appears that the amount of urine is a little less than what I remember... he never really did have alot of urine in his droppings, but I just might be noticing it more now... that would indicate kidney damage I think? BUT wouldn't his activity be alot more lathargic as well?

Outside of his sleeping, he seems pretty active, but wants more time on my shoulder, so I think he is hurting... don't really know.

Tomorrow can't come soon enough, and when I get back I will post the results. I am going to take a voice recorder with me so I can record everything the Dr. says so I don't have to rely on my memory or note taking.

I can't thank everyone enough for all your thoughts, ideas and support!
Thank You
Bill

 

[JerseyWendy]

Good luck tomorrow, Bill & Toots!!!

 

[pomonabill221]

Thank You JesreyWendy!

 

[JerseyWendy]

SO anxiously awaiting how it went at the specialist today.

 

[pomonabill221]

WELLL we're back!! and $775 poorer OUCH!
The dr. took another set of xrays to compare with the ones I had done on 7-3 because he saw a spot in his gizzard that is probably metal.

This is poisoning his blood and affecting the kidney (not enlarging though) and causing his leg nerves to be affected since the nerves are right next to the kidney.

Also, he said the uric acid being 9.0 reflects the kidney being affected, although not damaged, and the Dr. likes to see 5.5 for uric acid even though the blood test range goes to 10, the Dr. said those are old numbers that haven't been updated in blood tests.

The Dr. took xrays again and compared them to the ones done on 7-3, and the spot is still there, indicating it is metal or a stone that has metal in it and the gizzard hasn't processed it. The Dr. said that the gizzard should pass anything in about 1 week, NOT 1 month.
The Dr. couldn't tell if it was lead/zinc/iron/copper/etc., so we are celating it and should see positive changes in as little as 3 days, or 7. Then, if the spot is still there, we may have to "go in" and get it.

This vet has developed a procedure to remove "crap" from the gizzard by inserting a tube, and flushing out the stuff... he calls if "flush and suck". There is no recovery time (just about 1 hour), and is NOT invasive as he doesn't go into the stomach or cut the breast open. Of course it's $2-2.5K... OUI!!!

So where it stands now is try the celation and see if/how/what Toots improves, then Xray to see if it is still there, and then the flush and suck.

I am just very happy that Toots doesn't have organ damage or stroke/heart attack!!
The ONLY thing I can think of where Toots might have gotten the metal from was his little bells that he likes to play with... I have seen him actually "chew" them, but don't see any metal missing... the Dr. said that Toots only need to eat a small flake of the metal to get this poisoning though.

So guess what... the bells are history!!!
Also, the Dr. mentioned cement perches and I said my Yellow Naped loves to chew and bite it... NO GOOD... cement has lye and iron in it... so it is gone and a wood dowel in it's place.

Also, the raw pasta is fine, BUT NO CHEESE or ALMONDS... too much fat.

Harrison's is great and no need to "supplement" that, although I can give them treats and I do!

Toots is POOPED (and so am I!), and is in his cage playing with his plastic chain and resting... I just need to give him his meds at about 10p.m.

So that is the story as of today! I thought it was a positive visit, although VERY expensive. The Dr. is a little "short", but at least he doesn't try to make things pretty and tells you everything. He even showed me several Xrays of other birds that have had similar problems and what it looks like. Heck, he showed me a bird that had swallowed the "bling" that some people put on their cell phones (the "diamonds") that are glass WITH LEAD and that will NOT celate or dissolve because the acid in the gizzard cannot dissolve glass, so he had to go in and get it. Interesting!

Finally we seem to have an "iron clad" (hehe) reason that Toots is acting the way he is, and we'll see how the next week goes!
I even audio taped my exam so I have a record of what the Dr. said... memory isn't that good and the Dr. does talk fast!

 

[pomonabill221]

Just wanted to let you know about the Dr.
He ONLY does birds and has done so for YEARS.
His name is Dr. Larry Nemetz, The Bird Clinic in Orange, ca.
www(dot)thebirdclinic(dot)com...

 

[ShellyBorg]

Ouch! I am glad there is now a reason and one that can be dealt with!

 

[pomonabill221]

Me too! Yes, Toots is sick, yes he does have blood poising, BUT yes we now know what it is and can deal with it, and more than likely come out just fine.
This has been going on for several YEARS now that I look back as he has had sleeping problems, but it just now has gotten to the point of being toxic, affecting his sleep to this point.

He has had sleeping problems similar to what he has now (leaning over to the point of almost falling over), but has tucked his beak before now.

There should be improvement in a few days with the celation, so I will update as to his progress.

The bird camera is still available for those who want to look... just PM me for user and password.

 

[Poppetsmum]

Hi,

I haven't posted on this thread but I have been following it with interest and waiting for your updates. I so admire the time, money and effort you've put in trying to get to the root cause of Toot's problem. I really really hope that now you know what you're dealing with that he'll make a full recovery. Give him a tickle from me.

 

[pomonabill221]

Thank You Poppetsmum!
I know that the money is real tight, non-existant actually, but the alternative would mean alot of suffering, pain and agony for Toots and me, and the end result would be the loss of a good friend that I have spent alot of time with.
I just couldn't live with that having lost an African Grey a few years ago.
But, if it went on much longer, I would not want to put Toots thru test after test that would have been unnecessary in the end.

I now know what has probably been the cause of this slow onset of this poisoning... the bells in his cage. Although he has never bit off a piece of the metal, the fact that the bells had some corrosion spots on them he probably gnawed on them and got a piece of the metal that has poisoned him, and the sleeping is the result.

This vet is expensive, and I don't know if he is overpriced, but since there are so few Avian only vets, that have been working with birds only, in Southern California, I have no choice, and the vet knows this.
BUT... it seems like he DOES know what he is talking about and has enough experience to spot this and did, so only time will tell...we'll see.

The frustrating thing is that I paid 157 for Toots in 1987, but that goes with the bird territory... buying the animal is ONLY the beginning, and being an exotic, raises the price even more, but birds are special and I don't regret it.

Thanks again to all that have helped with their thoughts, suggestions and support! It is nice to see that people that "you" have never met are willing to give of themselves to help out.
I feel so much better knowing what I found out today!
I will keep updates coming!

Thank You
Bill

 

[pomonabill221]

AN EXCELLENT UPDATE!!!!!
I was watching Toots on my cameras, and for the FIRST time in ~3-4 MONTHS... he is ACTUALLY attempting to put his beak under his left wing, and SLEEPING.
He is very unstable (rocks around alot), BUT HE IS ACTUALLY TRYING..after only two doses of the celation formula!!!!!

I hope that I am not jumping the gun with this observation and will watch more, but I am recording and the cameras are available to watch.