Why aren't parrots "domesticated"

[Ann333]

Why arent they considered domesticated? We have kept them as pets for generation after generation.

People breed dogs for personality as well as physical characteristics. But from what I've read, people have "breeder birds" and then "pet birds". Breeder birds seem to usually be mean or unsocialized. Wouldn't it make more sense to breed birds so that only the nicest and healthiest ones are allowed to breed?

I don't know maybe I'm totally missing something....

 

[chris-md]

Russian fox experiment aside domestication can take millennia of selective breeding. Many parrots are only a couple generations removed from the wild collected parents, not nearly long enough. The ban on imports is only a few decades old, now that we are a more closed system, domestication can begin.

Now that we aren't importing birds at breakneck speeds, and there is emphasis on getting birds from breeders, real domestication can begin.it does beget the question, however, how many breeders actually focus on traits to be bred for. That I know nothing about.

 

[Kiwibird]

Because (with perhaps the exception of budgies and cockatiels) at MOST they are only a few generations out of the wild. It hasn't even been 20 years since wild imports into the pet trade were banned. And while we humans may have been keeping them for hundreds of years, they were wild caught. It's only been a few decades we've been breeding them in captivity and they have not lost their wild traits. Dogs and cats have been bred in captivity (for specific, human desired traits too) for thousands of generations.

 

[chris-md]

LMAO Kiwi! Same post time, nearly verbatim

 

[Ann333]

Ah okay I didn't know the importation bans were so recent! As for the budgies and cockatiels, maybe people are more focused on color than personality? It really seems like those two parrot species get overlooked and under appreciated.

 

[Ann333]

Russian fox experiment aside domestication can take millennia of selective breeding. Many parrots are only a couple generations removed from the wild collected parents, not nearly long enough. The ban on imports is only a few decades old, now that we are a more closed system, domestication can begin.

Now that we aren't importing birds at breakneck speeds, and there is emphasis on getting birds from breeders, real domestication can begin.it does beget the question, however, how many breeders actually focus on traits to be bred for. That I know nothing about.

I saw a documentary on the fox experiment it was very 9nteresting. I actually had that in mind when asking this question.

 

[Scott]

Considering the many artificial dog breeds created, some with significant health issues, I hope we are smarter and more ethical with future parrot selective species-breeding.

 

[Ann333]

Considering the many artificial dog breeds created, some with significant health issues, I hope we are smarter and more ethical with future parrot selective species-breeding.

Agreed completely!! I've had two pugs... it's very sad to hear them struggle for air. Just because people think flat faces are cute.

 

[chris-md]

Considering the many artificial dog breeds created, some with significant health issues, I hope we are smarter and more ethical with future parrot selective species-breeding.

Couldn't agree more, Scott. I'm just not sure how avoidable that is since many (certainly not all) of the birds we're dealing with are endangered species, and the captive subset of thereof. The issues with dogs was inbreeding for traits. Inbreeding in captive bred endangered species is almost unavoidable merely for survival. More common species like various cockatoos, it might be relatively easy to avoid. But the rarer macaws it's more difficult to avoid.

Zoos keep genetics databases for endangered species conservation breeding programs to specifically avoiding as much inbreeding as possible.

 

[chris-md]

Russian fox experiment aside domestication can take millennia of selective breeding. Many parrots are only a couple generations removed from the wild collected parents, not nearly long enough. The ban on imports is only a few decades old, now that we are a more closed system, domestication can begin.

Now that we aren't importing birds at breakneck speeds, and there is emphasis on getting birds from breeders, real domestication can begin.it does beget the question, however, how many breeders actually focus on traits to be bred for. That I know nothing about.

I saw a documentary on the fox experiment it was very 9nteresting. I actually had that in mind when asking this question.

It really is amazing to see how changes in hormone levels are so connected with things like coat color. Such an amazing case study.

The major difference here is that foxes needed to be selected for tolerance of human presence before any breeding could occur. When taken from the nest and hand fed as we do now, first generation parrots are perfectly fine around humans. So domestication in parrots has to take a different route.

 

[Newbsi]

Russian fox experiment aside domestication can take millennia of selective breeding. Many parrots are only a couple generations removed from the wild collected parents, not nearly long enough. The ban on imports is only a few decades old, now that we are a more closed system, domestication can begin.

Now that we aren't importing birds at breakneck speeds, and there is emphasis on getting birds from breeders, real domestication can begin.it does beget the question, however, how many breeders actually focus on traits to be bred for. That I know nothing about.

I saw a documentary on the fox experiment it was very 9nteresting. I actually had that in mind when asking this question.

I saw that show about the fox experiment. That was really interesting to see. That their physical characteristics were starting to change too. Tail color I believe it was. Its been a few years since I watched it.

 

[Mimsy01]

I saw the read the fox study many years ago and it is interesting at how much can change in animal when we are working for a single trait-in that case human tolerance.

It is bound to happen in more rare parrots depending on the pool of parrots we have and their genetics.

As far as the common species of parrots, like budgies and cockatiels we may start seeing more purposeful changes. If someone gets lucky and starts getting budgies the size of conures and they can make money of it, it's likely to be done and encouraged by both buyers and other breeders.

Many of us can say how awful it is that their dog breed has such and such wrong because of breeding, but we may of wanted that dog breed because of the way it looked/personality which is also connected to specific health issues. I tend to blame buyers more often than breeders. Breeders wouldn't do it if there was not a market for yet a shorter tail, smaller dog, flatter face ect.

 

[labell]

I am sad to say that history shows we will not be any more responsible breeding parrots than we are with anything else. Lion and Tiger crosses...A Hyacinth hybrid, seriously how could that bird ever be improved on?

Health and over well being is rarely considered (or by very few) when dollar signs are involved, think dogs and cats that have faces that are so smashed in the over all shape of the cranium has been altered. Cats and dogs with legs so small their backbones can barely sustain their own weight and they are unable to jump without risk of injury.

Pigeons, canaries, both are routinely bred for color, strange plumage and don't even get me started on chickens and turkeys bred for larger breasts because that's the flesh humans like to eat the most...breasts so large the bird can barely stand.

Yeah history shows we will for the most part be as arrogant and irresponsible with this as with every other way we attempt to improve on Mother Nature.

 

[Birdman666]

People breed dogs for personality as well as physical characteristics. But from what I've read, people have "breeder birds" and then "pet birds". Breeder birds seem to usually be mean or unsocialized. Wouldn't it make more sense to breed birds so that only the nicest and healthiest ones are allowed to breed?

I don't know maybe I'm totally missing something....

What Kiwi said on the whys... very well said. Many of their wild instincts remain intact.

As for breeder birds, yes, you are missing something.

Breeder birds generally you want to bond with each other, not with people. If you want them to breed, you leave them alone. You don't handle them much. You don't try to be their best buddies. You give them good food, privacy, and a nest box... and they make babies...

At a certain age, you pull the babies, and finish hand feeding them... Which doesn't endear you to the birds whose chicks you just stole... so, no, breeder birds aren't especially happy to see people.

When a male amazon, or macaw has a female on eggs or chicks in the nest... They tend to become UBER-TERRITORIAL. Their role in nature is to protect and defend the nest. They aren't so much "mean" as they are"just doing their jobs."

If you had a helpless wife, or little ones that could not defend themselves, you'd do your best to protect them, woudn't you?! Why would it be any different for a bird?

THAT is why breeder birds are different.

 

[SilverSage]

You should really check out dr. Steve Hartman at the parrot university. His organization is actually working toward the intentional domestication of parrots.

What everyone has said about it only being a short time ago that we stopped trapping and importing is true, but also consider how most breeders (not responsible ones, but again, responsible people will always be fewer than greedy ones) get their stock. They get the cheapest possible birds. A lot of times, these birds are birds that are "failed pets," you have no idea how many times people offer me birds of the species I breed because their pet is mean. Yeah, a lot of it is training related, but the fact of the matter is that screamers, biters, pluckers, and chronic egg layers make up the backbone of the breeding stock in the USA. This means we are breeding the worst possible candidates! A lot of personality is genetic. Aside from scientific studies, I have witnessed it in my own flock. I can tell a new parront which chicks will be good matches based on WHO THE PARENTS ARE in some of my birds. Do you want a cuddly snugly cockatiel? Choose from this clutch. Do you want a more independent, super smart, eager to learn and explore bird? Choose from this clutch. Yes all the birds have those characteristics,but they are amplified differently. So part of the reason we don't have domesticated birds is because the breeding that is happening is happening backwards and badly. Hartman aviaries, as far as I can tell, is the only major operation that screens for personality. They don't breed any birds that do not have a great history as pets already, which is contrary to "popular belief" that good pets make bad breeders.

 

[Ann333]

People breed dogs for personality as well as physical characteristics. But from what I've read, people have "breeder birds" and then "pet birds". Breeder birds seem to usually be mean or unsocialized. Wouldn't it make more sense to breed birds so that only the nicest and healthiest ones are allowed to breed?

I don't know maybe I'm totally missing something....

What Kiwi said on the whys... very well said. Many of their wild instincts remain intact.

As for breeder birds, yes, you are missing something.

Breeder birds generally you want to bond with each other, not with people. If you want them to breed, you leave them alone. You don't handle them much. You don't try to be their best buddies. You give them good food, privacy, and a nest box... and they make babies...

At a certain age, you pull the babies, and finish hand feeding them... Which doesn't endear you to the birds whose chicks you just stole... so, no, breeder birds aren't especially happy to see people.

When a male amazon, or macaw has a female on eggs or chicks in the nest... They tend to become UBER-TERRITORIAL. Their role in nature is to protect and defend the nest. They aren't so much "mean" as they are"just doing their jobs."

If you had a helpless wife, or little ones that could not defend themselves, you'd do your best to protect them, woudn't you?! Why would it be any different for a bird?

THAT is why breeder birds are different.

That does make a lot of sense! Thank you for clarifying about the breeders.

 

[Kiwibird]

Silversage- you make some very interesting points about the breeding stock being the "rejected pets". And I believe personality is genetic too.

One also has to wonder how many of the 'would be' breeders brought in from the wild were bought as pets instead because of their personalities. That's how my mom got her DYH. Went to the "bird farm" where she bought her bird food, saw her in the cage of fresh out of (USDA) quarantine 'ready to be paired off as breeder birds' and couldn't leave without her. And a straight out of the wild, good genetic stock that's friendly with humans became a pet who never bred. Wonder how often that happened?

 

[thekarens]

I've met a lot of breeders and not one of them has gotten their breeders due to rejected pet status. They've picked them due to species, size, color, mutation, but not due to them being rejected pets.

 

[SilverSage]

Like I said, that is not how responsible breeders do it, but that's how a lot of the breeders I have interacted with have done it. Only recently a female eckie was sent to a local breeder because a she was "too mean and not suitable as a pet." And yes, I happen to know that bird is already set up with a male and the breeder has high hopes for her. Karen, you strike me as the type who doesn't interact with the "low life" breeders who are out there only for profit. Sadly these people greatly outnumber the responsible caring ones. I also recently witnessed a transaction where two blue and golds were purchased for breeding. They were siblings. The man knew this and didn't care. Oh, I also have info that breeding of sibling cockatiels is going on in a local "reputable" pet store remember my rescue budgies froma. While back? I just found out that the home two of gem ultimately ended up in is trying to breed them despite their obvious beak deformities, the fact that they are siblings, and their dangerous health history. Part of the reason I decided not to breed my breeding pair of pionus is that they were both former pets, and he was a mean one! Any time a pet parrot ends up as a breeder it is a warning flag to me. Surely some good pets go to breeders for different reasons, but when a pet parrot typically costs ca round twice that of a breeder bird, it is always suspicious.

 

[SilverSage]

Also I've been told a lot of times things like "yes, we had a bird, we loved her so much but she was a ___________(screamer, biter, plucker, she wouldn't stop laying eggs, etc) so we sent her to a breeder where she would___________________(be happy, have room to fly, not have to be in such a small cage, get to be a parent because she obviously needed to have babies, etc).