Back from the vet, it's not great news

[EllenD]

I'm glad Kiwi is going to be okay, just the stress of going through a diet change...been there...uhg.

My CAV has always told me that it's my choice as far as what I want to feed my guys, but he doesn't recommend feeding pellets to parrots either, because it's not what they eat in their natural environment/habitat. He recommends feeding a fortified, well-varied seed-mix that contains little to no sunflower seeds, but rather a large mix of other healthy seeds, grains, nuts, dried fruits, veggies, etc. He recommends the Tropimix/Tropican brand, the SunSeed PrimaVita mixes, and another one that I always forget that begins with an L. I have always argued with him on this, but he doesn't feed pellets to his own African Grey or Macaw (the Macaw is older, I don't know exactly the age, but it's over 40), just a healthy seed/grain/nut mix and then lots of fresh veggies and fruits...

The use of Allopurinol to dilate his renal vessels is interesting, makes sense and is something that I've not heard of but makes complete and total sense. Hopefully Kiwi won't get "itchy-butt" again...what an awful thing to go through; I've had chronic kidney stones since I was 19 (I'm 38 now) and the kidney infections that come along with the ones that won't leave, lol. I speak from experience and can tell you that a bad kidney infection feels EXACTLY like having a kidney stone that is stuck in your ureter and that is fully obstructing the flow of urine, causing it to back-up into the kidney causing hydronephrosis (This is what causes the pain in your flank/upper back with a kidney stone that you always hear people say is worse than giving birth)...It's not the "passing" the kidney stone that is the worst pain (not that it's pleasant, that's more of a burning, throbbing kind of pain), it's that damn back/flank pain when your urine gets obstructed that makes you feel like you're dying, or that you want to die...literally, you want someone to kill you. Now. And the really bad kidney infections I've had have felt exactly the same, you get that horrendous upper back/flank pain like someone is stabbing you with an ice-pick and twisting it, along with the burning/throbbing horrible pain like you have to pee constantly but can't...No wonder poor Kiwi was picking at his butt!!!

Hopefully he won't ever go through that again. SILVER LINING: We all now know that if our birds ever start constantly picking the feathers around their vents that we need to get them to the vet ASAP....I would never have guessed a kidney infection...

 

[Kiwibird]

I'm also glad he's getting better. It's a huge relief! Re: dietary changes- ya, a MAJOR bummer to have to eat more seeds and nuts at the vet's insistence (said no parrot ever). He readily eats a variety of fruit and veggies, so I basically just need to switch wet food for dry food and keep his produce the same volume-wise, but no more 'chop'. Vet suggested perhaps doing cooked food on the weekends only, a batch just big enough for 2 days meals, which I think is a good idea just to keep it varied. His vet has been doing this a long time and said parrot dietary knowledge has really come full circle. Apparently, one of the biggest impetuses for the development of pellets was for birds who wouldn't eat any produce and were getting sick from nutritional deficiencies. Then they started marketing them towards ALL birds, even ones who DO eat fresh produce and they have also apparently changed the ingredients in most pellet brands from seed/nut based to GMO corn, soy and wheat based. She also said that as more time has passed, they've discovered diets like what I have/had Kiwi on with all the cooked beans and grains and chop mixes all the time can make it easier for them to get infections in their GI tract (if I understood correctly, it makes it easier for bacteria to colonize and even introduces bacteria, especially when frozen and defrosted). It was very interesting. I could have kept her there for hours discussing this, but I know she had other 'patients' to see

I have never heard of the drug he was put on, but to my understanding it has something to do with dissolving or preventing (?) uric acid crystals and 'flushing' his kidneys. Interesting they use the same meds on a bird as they do humans with kidney issues. THANKFULLY, this one just goes in his water and is not necessary to administer orally:worship2: He still has some mild discomfort in the butt region, but fortunately it seems to be related to a lot of new feathers all coming in at once down there and not the continuation of the infection or discomfort caused by it. I think though he has a whole other type of discomfort with a now prickly butt full of pin feathers But I guess it's a good sign that the feathers are growing back!

 

[Anansi]

So glad to hear that Kiwi is doing so much better, April! I know it must've been rough on him, poor guy.

Interesting info on the vet's take on his diet. What size portions are we talking for the seeds?

 

[Kiwibird]

So glad to hear that Kiwi is doing so much better, April! I know it must've been rough on him, poor guy.

Interesting info on the vet's take on his diet. What size portions are we talking for the seeds?

You know what Stephen, I never even thought to ask about portion size, only that they are to replace the majority of his bean/grains mix meals (he can have a couple mushy meals, cooked fresh, per week). She did make certain he was a bird who readily ate fruits and veggies too, which he does. I'm also not stopping feeding him on a schedule VS free feeding to keep him readily eating those fruits and veg I do know she specified a 'couple nuts' a day for his gizzard to grind up, so I'm going to offer 3-5, depending on the type/size of nut or maybe a couple tsps of small nut bits. The seed mix, she specified the Volkman Super Hookbill brand/formula for Kiwi at our first visit for this problem so he's already been on it for a month now as part of his renal diet. He seems to like it enough. About 1/4 cup seems to be a serving he eats most of but doesn't seem to end up seeming hungry after too (he also gets either fruit or veg with the seed, too). Since being on the renal diet, he's been getting larger chunks of fruit/veg and not chop. I've been aiming for 3 different roughly thumb sized pieces of either fruit or veggies per meal, which he eats a good amount of. This is the stuff she put Kiwi on:
https://www.amazon.com/Volkman-Avia...106535&sr=8-1&keywords=volkman+super+hookbill


I'm not sure if the recommendations she made are based on Kiwi's unique medical history or if these are recommendations she'd make for all amazons or all new world birds or all parrots in general... She did say that amazons eat a pretty crap diet in nature and have evolved to extract nutrition from nutritionally poor foods. I do know at prior visits, she has brought up that the "gizzard needs hard foods daily" and that it was ok to give him more seeds and nuts than I had been, but didn't specifically instruct me to switch his diet to this kind of diet at that time. She also said a little (natural) salt in his diet won't hurt him either and that they need some salt (apparently, they're about as salty in their blood as we are!).

 

[Anansi]

Thanks, April. Hmmm... that Volkman seed mix seems healthier than the Volkman Eclectus seed mix that I order. I always wind up having to filter out all of the sunflower seeds by hand, but this selection doesn't have any to begin with! I think I might be making a switch.

Sounds like Kiwi is going to be quite pleased with the adjustments to his meal plan! Lots of interesting points brought up by your vet, though. I'm going to do a bit of research into it myself.

 

[GaleriaGila]

Oh, what a relief!

Good parronting and good vetting come through once again!

 

[Flboy]

I'm glad Kiwi is going to be okay, just the stress of going through a diet change...been there...uhg.

My CAV has always told me that it's my choice as far as what I want to feed my guys, but he doesn't recommend feeding pellets to parrots either, because it's not what they eat in their natural environment/habitat. He recommends feeding a fortified, well-varied seed-mix that contains little to no sunflower seeds, but rather a large mix of other healthy seeds, grains, nuts, dried fruits, veggies, etc. He recommends the Tropimix/Tropican brand, the SunSeed PrimaVita mixes, and another one that I always forget that begins with an L. I have always argued with him on this, but he doesn't feed pellets to his own African Grey or Macaw (the Macaw is older, I don't know exactly the age, but it's over 40), just a healthy seed/grain/nut mix and then lots of fresh veggies and fruits...

The use of Allopurinol to dilate his renal vessels is interesting, makes sense and is something that I've not heard of but makes complete and total sense. Hopefully Kiwi won't get "itchy-butt" again...what an awful thing to go through; I've had chronic kidney stones since I was 19 (I'm 38 now) and the kidney infections that come along with the ones that won't leave, lol. I speak from experience and can tell you that a bad kidney infection feels EXACTLY like having a kidney stone that is stuck in your ureter and that is fully obstructing the flow of urine, causing it to back-up into the kidney causing hydronephrosis (This is what causes the pain in your flank/upper back with a kidney stone that you always hear people say is worse than giving birth)...It's not the "passing" the kidney stone that is the worst pain (not that it's pleasant, that's more of a burning, throbbing kind of pain), it's that damn back/flank pain when your urine gets obstructed that makes you feel like you're dying, or that you want to die...literally, you want someone to kill you. Now. And the really bad kidney infections I've had have felt exactly the same, you get that horrendous upper back/flank pain like someone is stabbing you with an ice-pick and twisting it, along with the burning/throbbing horrible pain like you have to pee constantly but can't...No wonder poor Kiwi was picking at his butt!!!

Hopefully he won't ever go through that again. SILVER LINING: We all now know that if our birds ever start constantly picking the feathers around their vents that we need to get them to the vet ASAP....I would never have guessed a kidney infection...

I am so glad I am not the only anti pellet person! They are crap, for the most part!

 

[Inger]

Such interesting dietary recommendations! “More seeds! No chop!” Seems like the opposite of everything we hear.

I’m so glad Kiwi is better. I’m sure pinny-butt is uncomfortable, but certainly preferable.


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[Kiwibird]

Such interesting dietary recommendations! “More seeds! No chop!” Seems like the opposite of everything we hear.

I’m so glad Kiwi is better. I’m sure pinny-butt is uncomfortable, but certainly preferable.


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Very contrary to everything I've heard too, BUT the way she explained it (which I have done a fairly poor job of 'parroting' back here) it really made sense. And I think chop is ok as long as it's freshly made (but who wants to make chop every single day fresh???). What she was getting at is not to feed frozen/defrosted chop or too much cooked foods, as parrots don't eat cooked food in nature. And again, I'm not sure if the dietary advice I was given applied to all birds or just Kiwi's circumstances or his species but not other species etc...

TBH, my parents parrots (a cockatoo and an amazon) have been on this "new" diet for all their lives and are perfectly heathy at 40+ and 45+ y/o. I just always thought "but new advice and guidelines have come out since then!" Apparently the old dietary advice is still valid today and about as close as you're ever going to get to what these creatures actually eat in nature. Not pellets, not cooked beans and grains, they eat fruits, nuts and seeds. Makes perfect sense to feed them mostly those things.... DUH!

 

[Scott]

Nice to see a great update for Kiwi.
Always good to hear nutritional advice from various CAVs. Just when I thought my conversion from Zupreem/seeds to Harrison's as adjunct to chop was ideal! Guess there is no "ideal" but human interpretation of the best husbandry for our fids!!

 

[plumsmum2005]

So very pleased to hear things are a lot better for Kiwi and you have a plan and look forward to your new parrot feeding system coming out soon?

 

[Kiwibird]

Just another update: Kiwi seems to be back at 100% and has (obviously) adjusted easily to the inclusion of more seeds and nuts in his diet, though he still eats plenty of kidney-friendly produce daily and some cooked food on the weekends as a treat. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the seemingly becoming more accepting of touch we've been experiencing recently was just in fact him feeling sick. He's back to full-force demon of the opinion being petted and scritched by humans is for sissy birds (and if that means he's healthy again, then I couldn't be happier!). Still has about 2 weeks left on the current medication before his next (and hopefully final) follow up. Also a good reminder of WHY it's so important to have an emergency medical expenses savings for your bird, as this little experience will ring in at about $700-$900 before it's over (depending on the cost of the next visit) and I consider our AV to be charging more reasonable rates than others.

One thing I wanted to check on, he has began a pretty major molt. We're talking "bird must've exploded in the vicinity" molt. We just clipped him last month and he already has 3 new flight feathers! His tail has several stubby little new feathers growing in and his body has so many pin feathers and looks like a little cactus Oh, and the butt region he had 'plucked' has almost completely re-feathered! Because this is not his normal time of year to molt, I'm assuming this has to do with him having healed from the infection and his little body going into overdrive replacing old feathers it didn't want to waste energy on replacing when he was sick? Does that sound about right? Hoping the major molt is a good sign in favor of recovery!

 

[bill_e]

Good news! Wishing Kiwi a speedy recovery.

 

[wrench13]

Very happy to hear the news about Kiwi, who could not have a better home or parront.
Good advice about having a 'Bird" fund saved up, I hope a lot of our members take that bit of advice to heart. Salty's first year vet expenses ran about what yours were - around $900 all totaled, since he came to us with a nasal infection, a stubborn one at that.

 

[Sunnyclover]

Just another update: Kiwi seems to be back at 100% and has (obviously) adjusted easily to the inclusion of more seeds and nuts in his diet, though he still eats plenty of kidney-friendly produce daily and some cooked food on the weekends as a treat. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the seemingly becoming more accepting of touch we've been experiencing recently was just in fact him feeling sick. He's back to full-force demon of the opinion being petted and scritched by humans is for sissy birds (and if that means he's healthy again, then I couldn't be happier!). Still has about 2 weeks left on the current medication before his next (and hopefully final) follow up. Also a good reminder of WHY it's so important to have an emergency medical expenses savings for your bird, as this little experience will ring in at about $700-$900 before it's over (depending on the cost of the next visit) and I consider our AV to be charging more reasonable rates than others.

One thing I wanted to check on, he has began a pretty major molt. We're talking "bird must've exploded in the vicinity" molt. We just clipped him last month and he already has 3 new flight feathers! His tail has several stubby little new feathers growing in and his body has so many pin feathers and looks like a little cactus Oh, and the butt region he had 'plucked' has almost completely re-feathered! Because this is not his normal time of year to molt, I'm assuming this has to do with him having healed from the infection and his little body going into overdrive replacing old feathers it didn't want to waste energy on replacing when he was sick? Does that sound about right? Hoping the major molt is a good sign in favor of recovery!

Finley once flew into the floor head first and scrapped some feathers off his head...not many or anything but they immediately grew back if that helps at all. Glad Amy is doing better!

 

[Scott]

Wonderful update, April!! Always a good sign when they revert to a normally feisty disposition!!

 

[Tami2]

I’m just seeing this thread, I’m so sorry Kiwi has been sick. I’m so happy you were able to get it diagnosed and treated immediately and his treatment is effective. Wonderful News for you all. :heart: Praying for continued success and a complete recovery.

 

[Anansi]

...One thing I wanted to check on, he has began a pretty major molt. We're talking "bird must've exploded in the vicinity" molt. We just clipped him last month and he already has 3 new flight feathers! His tail has several stubby little new feathers growing in and his body has so many pin feathers and looks like a little cactus Oh, and the butt region he had 'plucked' has almost completely re-feathered! Because this is not his normal time of year to molt, I'm assuming this has to do with him having healed from the infection and his little body going into overdrive replacing old feathers it didn't want to waste energy on replacing when he was sick? Does that sound about right? Hoping the major molt is a good sign in favor of recovery!

Yes, I agree completely with your assessment. Sometimes when the body's resources are going elsewhere, molting takes a bit of a backseat. So when he winds up feeling completely back to full vigor, it'll kick right back in. So yes, I believe his molt is a very good sign.

Btw, it's possible that the "scritching is for sissy birds" attitude he has going is less of a return to type that a reflection of his current circumstance. After all, most birds don't want to be touched when their molt has them in full porcupine mode. Lol!

 

[ChristaNL]

LOL@ "little cactus" and "porcupine mode"


You guys (m/v) really have a way with words!


And WORD on the "savings for medical bills" every single time I feel I have my piggybank back on its way from starvation ... something else happens.
Consumerminded people will consider me crazy for spending about the amount of a fresh, new bird on those rehomers just on check-ups and meds.


And it spends fast!
(Oke, my vets are bloody expensive, but also a blast to work with - all the extra students who love to meet the birds and they go above and beyond and... I can reach them by bicycle / I don't have a car so my options are very limited, despite living in a first world country.)

(I promised my first grey I would never ever 'make' a parrot into pet, so I've been doing it the other way: recycling the ones that already were and are. The cool, assured and trusting way he had about him always made me suspect he was born free- he was such a class apart from all the others I've met since. LOL and also a rehomer... most of my pets have always been just that: looking for another place to live)



Go kiwibird go!
(so glad he is still here and doing okay)

 

[SailBoat]

The many Amazons that have owned us have provided that "Who Blow-up the Amazon" moment when they have gotten healthier and than also rebuilt their reserves. Which is such a great joy and also an OMG moment when experienced. FYI: Just do not be surprised if he elects to repeat this Fall.

Regarding 'sissy birds' like being handled! Our shared brothers by a different mother have really got that one down to a science.

So very happy to hear that Kiwi is doing much better!