Sir Jolly's having a bad reaction

[Rozalka]

The video doesn't work

 

[ChristaNL]

Nope.... sorry; "this video is unavailable"

 

[Anansi]

Karen, thank you so much for taking the time to think about Jolly's situation and then putting the effort into doing some research on his behalf. I appreciate that more than you know, my friend.

Funny enough, upon looking into it Plumsmum also communicated to me the possibility that pesticides could conceivably be the culprit. I highly respect both of your opinions, and the close timing of your shared hypothesis, while possibly coincidental, could prove a matter of providence if correct. I've always thought I did a rather thorough job of washing their veggies and fruits, but it would be very much worth it to redouble my efforts in that regard. Perhaps adding a vinegar rinse as well. Wouldn't hurt to try it.

And thanks, Keatz! Yes, your vet situation must be beyond frustrating. I've never had vets so hesitant to prescribe needed medication. (Though I have struggled in the past with finding a vet that knows ekkies.)

Looking forward to seeing that YouTube video. Hopefully we can stumble on an answer to this shared problem soon.

EDIT: typed this before your last responses, Keatz.

 

[Anansi]

Okay, just tried and I still can't see your video. Have you checked your privacy settings?

 

[Keatz]

I think the problem I have with the video is that when I go into my privacy settings, it will only allow me to add an email address to share the video with.

 

[Anansi]

Hmmm... it was probably something with the settings in place at the time you uploaded it. Perhaps if you deleted the video on YouTube and then uploaded it again? This time checking all of the different settings before going ahead. I usually keep mine on unlisted. Public would work just fine as well.

 

[Keatz]

I took your advice, Stephen. I deleted the video and reuploaded it as an unlisted video. I trust that it works this time.
Was Jolly like this during the day? Oscar's got worse in the evenings. He would sit on me and I could feel his left foot kicking into me.

[ame="https://youtu.be/8VpuSgsbQj0"]Oscar - YouTube[/ame]

 

[charmedbyekkie]

I took your advice, Stephen. I deleted the video and reuploaded it as an unlisted video. I trust that it works this time.

Since we're in close enough timezones, I just wanted to let you know that it does work!! Hopefully Stephen will see it in the morning

 

[Keatz]

Thanks for letting me know. I'm glad it works.

 

[Anansi]

Yes, that's exactly the same affliction, even down to the toe-tapping on the other foot... though Jolly's kicking was significantly more violent. (Which is saying a lot, since Oscar's is obviously pretty bad as well.) Thanks for working so hard to publish the video.

It was consistently bad day or evening, though the duration wasn't as long as it had been for Oscar. Only had the violent kicking for around 2 days. I threw out everything that was in his chop, as well as the fruits and veggies used, in case it was a bad batch. And upon "detoxing" his spasms downgraded to regular toe-tapping.

At this point the toe-tapping is almost completely gone, and he's still regaining grip strength. He's definitely not 100% yet, though, as he's still in that needy phase. But he's slowly getting there.

 

[ChristaNL]

Thank you for posting that video!


It is really terrible to see and I am so glad he is still getting better and better.
(very educational though - I've never seen this happen or even heard of it, but I've been a rather indifferent reader of ekkiefora / so not sure how common it is overhere)

 

[Keatz]

I can't remember exactly how long it took Oscar's toe tapping to subside after that episode -- maybe a week or a bit longer -- but like Jolly, it slowly went away. At least when he has just a mild toe tap, he can sleep. When he's having those leg spasms, I don't think he sleeps at all. The first evening after that episode, he sat on the back of the couch, tucked his head behind his back and fell asleep.
It is such a severe affliction that when vets dismiss it as a reaction to food, I feel like they're trivialising it. I feel that if a dog or cat had the same affliction, they'd do more to find the cause.
I think I mentioned in a previous post that I sent that video to the Eclectus Research Centre. They've been studying toe tapping alongside some avian vets. They seemed pretty confident that in Oscar's case it was the result of too many added vitamins in his food. They say that vitamins slowly build up in their livers until they can no longer tolerate them and the result is muscle spasms.
My vet, on the other hand, after examining him, speculated that it could be the opposite: not enough vitamins and minerals.
Since the last episode, Oscar has been very well. He has not toe tapped, he passed his examination at the vet and appears active and happy. I don't know whether it's because I've completely cut pellets and seed (except for sprouted seed) out of his diet; nonetheless, I've kept him on a fairly strict diet. Only healthy food for him.
The Eclectus Research Centre also suggested cutting pasta out of his diet, so I not longer give that to him.

 

[chris-md]

What a relief thatjolly has made such a great recovery! Your dogged determination is truly inspirational!

Along that vein, you’ve definitely got me thinking about Parker’s barbering, and wondering if there might not be a neurological component. Parker will have a wellness checkup probably July/August. I’ll bring up the idea of some similar cocktail for Parker to start December.

 

[Anansi]

I can't remember exactly how long it took Oscar's toe tapping to subside after that episode -- maybe a week or a bit longer -- but like Jolly, it slowly went away. At least when he has just a mild toe tap, he can sleep. When he's having those leg spasms, I don't think he sleeps at all. The first evening after that episode, he sat on the back of the couch, tucked his head behind his back and fell asleep.
It is such a severe affliction that when vets dismiss it as a reaction to food, I feel like they're trivialising it. I feel that if a dog or cat had the same affliction, they'd do more to find the cause.
I think I mentioned in a previous post that I sent that video to the Eclectus Research Centre. They've been studying toe tapping alongside some avian vets. They seemed pretty confident that in Oscar's case it was the result of too many added vitamins in his food. They say that vitamins slowly build up in their livers until they can no longer tolerate them and the result is muscle spasms.
My vet, on the other hand, after examining him, speculated that it could be the opposite: not enough vitamins and minerals.
Since the last episode, Oscar has been very well. He has not toe tapped, he passed his examination at the vet and appears active and happy. I don't know whether it's because I've completely cut pellets and seed (except for sprouted seed) out of his diet; nonetheless, I've kept him on a fairly strict diet. Only healthy food for him.
The Eclectus Research Centre also suggested cutting pasta out of his diet, so I not longer give that to him.

Wow, I can imagine how frustrating this has been for you after repeated episodes. This is the first (and, God-willing, last) episode for Jolly and it is such a heart-wrenching thing to witness. And I agree, there is no way that any bird (or living thing in general) could sleep through spasms like those!

I've shown my vet the link to your video, as he is actively trying to figure out what exactly is happening with ekkies and these neurological reactions. (He never got to see Jolly spasming. By the time we got to him, it was down to a strong toe-tapping) At this point, he has reiterated that we really don't know what the cause is. That the ABV/PDD variant is just a theory, and that it could as easily be something else. But thankfully, this medicinal approach has been largely successful with all of the cases he's seen (cases of toe-tapping. He's never seen these spasms, before.)

What a relief thatjolly has made such a great recovery! Your dogged determination is truly inspirational!

Along that vein, you’ve definitely got me thinking about Parker’s barbering, and wondering if there might not be a neurological component. Parker will have a wellness checkup probably July/August. I’ll bring up the idea of some similar cocktail for Parker to start December.

Yes, Chris. I've definitely been thinking a lot about Parker's case in particular. Something triggers him at the same time every year. So what if preemptive action with Gabapentin and Celebrex - or even Gabapentin alone - could head it off before it started? Maybe his plucking/barbering isn't behavioral at all. Just a theory, but you never know. Definitely worth bringing up.

 

[Kentuckienne]

What time of year is the trigger for Parker? What’s going on then, in terms of food availability or sunlight or annual events?

 

[Keatz]

I'm glad the video could be of some help. Could you keep us informed of whether your vet comes up with anything?
As you can tell in the video, Oscar also had a bit of wing flipping involved with it. In fact, he started wing flipping the night before he started having the spasms.

 

[chris-md]

What time of year is the trigger for Parker? What’s going on then, in terms of food availability or sunlight or annual events?

Winter. It’s cyclcial for sure, and that’s a glaring point.

He molts once a year, July/August. The feathers remain for 4 months, and he starts on them around Christmas time like clockwork.

We’ve tried everything, mental stimulation, uv lights, improved diet, blood tests, you name it. I’ve sort of resigned myself to the idea that the underlying cause has long been addressed and it’s just habit now. But the idea that might be neurological is a new hypothesis. Seasonal affective disorder..who know.

I say it’s cyclical. Truth is unlike other ekkies since he only molts once a year. By the time he’s finished barbering, marchish, he’s got nothing else to barber. If there were more, would he continue? Who knows. It’s very telling that once they come in in August, he leaves them alone for 4 month before barbering.

It’s confounding.

 

[Kentuckienne]

What time of year is the trigger for Parker? What’s going on then, in terms of food availability or sunlight or annual events?

Winter. It’s cyclcial for sure, and that’s a glaring point.

He molts once a year, July/August. The feathers remain for 4 months, and he starts on them around Christmas time like clockwork.

We’ve tried everything, mental stimulation, uv lights, improved diet, blood tests, you name it. I’ve sort of resigned myself to the idea that the underlying cause has long been addressed and it’s just habit now. But the idea that might be neurological is a new hypothesis. Seasonal affective disorder..who know.

I say it’s cyclical. Truth is unlike other ekkies since he only molts once a year. By the time he’s finished barbering, marchish, he’s got nothing else to barber. If there were more, would he continue? Who knows. It’s very telling that once they come in in August, he leaves them alone for 4 month before barbering.

It’s confounding.

So, what is so different about that time of year ... More produce coming in from outside the US, where they might use more chemicals or worse chemicals? Lack of sunlight, you already tried UV light ... this sounds crazy, but if you put up Christmas decorations in the summer would it bother him? Like flashing lights trigger seizures? I could see neurological, but there must be a trigger ... something that starts or only happens at Christmas. Poor guy, it must be hard on all of you.

 

[chris-md]

Yep, You’re absolutely right. Assuming it’s not habit and the cause hasn’t been resolved already, the challenge remains to identfiy it. The cyclical nature is key for sure.

We don’t even put up Christmas lights at Christmas X-)

Very interesting thought about the produce. Definitely worth consideration.

 

[Anansi]

I'm glad the video could be of some help. Could you keep us informed of whether your vet comes up with anything?
As you can tell in the video, Oscar also had a bit of wing flipping involved with it. In fact, he started wing flipping the night before he started having the spasms.

The vet got back to me. Unfortunately there is nothing groundbreaking here so much as confirmation of some of our thoughts and further acknowledgement of what we simply do not know. He basically agreed that it seemed almost certainly a variant of toe-tapping and, therefore, would likely have sprung from the same unidentified source. I'd mentioned Plumsmum's and K's thoughts about the pesticides being a possible cause, and he said that they couldn't be ruled out as a possible - though unlikely - catalyst either, as no one knows definitively at this point what causes toe-tapping or wing-flipping.

I am, however, feeling more confident in my thought that there may not be a singular external cause, per se, of TT and WF. I think it may be a neurological reaction unique to eclectus parrots to body imbalances in general. But the external factors likely vary greatly. Almost like allergic reactions and such. For some people, getting stung by bees is a painful annoyance. For others, it is a matter of life and death. So perhaps the commonality is not to be found in the external factors, but rather in the internal reactions to said external factors. Just as one person who is deathly allergic to bees might be able to chug peanut butter all day, and for another person the exact opposite might hold true (well, not that he or she would necessarily be chugging bees, but you catch my point), some ekkies might toe-tap/wing-flip in response to certain stimuli that might not necessarily affect other ekkies.

Such would certainly explain why some parronts claim their ekkies are totally unaffected by certain pellets while others seem almost violently affected. But pellets are the cause most frequently documented because it's far easier to ascertain when they are the culprit. Switch from pellets to chop and voila, the problem disappears. But other catalysts aren't so easily identified. Like, for instance, with Chris' Parker. Parker doesn't TT or WF, but he plucks at the same exact time every single year. And this is quite possibly another variant of a neurological reaction. But to what?

Yep, You’re absolutely right. Assuming it’s not habit and the cause hasn’t been resolved already, the challenge remains to identfiy it. The cyclical nature is key for sure.

We don’t even put up Christmas lights at Christmas X-)

Very interesting thought about the produce. Definitely worth consideration.

I think we can all agree that ekkies tend toward the more sensitive side. But there seems a wide range of sensitivities, leaving us with the daunting task of finding exactly which sensitivities are present in our individual eclectus parrots. Parker's cyclical plucking alone leaves us with a vast field of potential culprits. Is his body reacting to hormones? Changes in humidity? Temperature (unlikely, considering the controlled nature of our household climates)? Produce as suggested by Karen? Lighting? Does his skin become especially inflamed during a molt, triggering a plucking episode?

We don't know. But the thing is, if any of these symptoms is causing a tingling sensation or other kind of nerve-centered discomfort, pre-emptive medication might truly head it off. This would be especially helpful in Parker's situation, as there is the advantage of knowing beforehand when this issue is about to occur. (Of course, as Chris has already pointed out, if his plucking has transitioned to the behavioral rather than the physical or specifically neurological, it wouldn't necessarily make a difference with the plucking itself.) Not a sure shot, but I'm excited about the possibility of this being a potential answer.