African Grey price increase due to Defra / Article 10?

[hucker]

A few years ago, an African Grey in the UK was about £600 privately (hand reared cuddly tame). Now they're over double that. Did the article 10 thing by Defra cause more harm than good? Are there less breeders now? Is it hard to get a license? I hope they aren't going to make them extinct, because that's the opposite of what they intended!

 

[noodles123]

They won't--- at least not in captivity...sadly, I am not sure about the wild.
I am not sure what you are referring to exactly (I will look it up when I have second), but in my opinion, there need to be restrictions because too many random people decide to try breeding for the wrong reasons and end up killing birds by mistake...and when they are cheap, lots of people buy them without a lot of thought.

There are still lots out there-- breeders are selling them at higher prices and people are buying---in the US, it's not uncommon for a hand-raised chick to go for $3,000 or $5,000 and people do pay it.
Just remember-- a species' life must be worth living, so raising birds and selling them to anyone (as some shady dealers do) hardly justifies continued captive breeding of a species if it is also perpetuating a cycle of neglect and re-homing. I do think it makes sense for breeders to be selective about where babies go and at what cost, as captive birds in private homes are highly unlikely to ever aid in repopulating the wild (which is where they would be most needed--captive birds can't be released for obvious reasons--with the exception of wildlife rehabilitation programs etc).

But yeah- prices are super high.
It seems that people are willing to pay it though...
I imagine some of it relates to increased monitoring of the global parrot trade (which was illegally supplying many birds to various countries (including the UK and USA) but killing 100x as many---very bad.....)
I guess I figure that if someone isn't willing to shell out some serious money for a bird that could live 80+ years, then they haven't been saving and planning long enough to take that plunge (as the long-term cost quickly exceeds the initial payment for the bird).

 

[hucker]

But Blue Fronted Amazons remained at their normal price. It's just the Greys that went up - this has to be directly due to Article 10. But that is not designed to, and I can't see that it does, make it harder to breed. You pay a tiny fee (around £20 a bird) to register them. They do not inspect anything. All they're trying to do is stop imported birds from the wild. I'm wondering how on earth this managed to double the breeding prices. Were most breeders using wild birds to breed from? I don't understand why they would. It's easier if your adult birds are friendly. And paying a similar amount for the parents as you get for the babies doesn't stop you making money.

And what worries me is supply and demand - if the prices are higher for something, it means they're rarer. I reckon Defra's ruling is going to make pet parrots a thing of the past.

 

[noodles123]

I do know lots of people back in the day used wild birds as breeders (which again, is very wrong). It could be related to that (at least, in part).

 

[hucker]

Perhaps. Or since there are no wild ones on the market, everyone has to buy tame ones, and there aren't enough to go round - perhaps a lot of pet shops used to sell wild birds to unwitting people who don't know what "hand rearing" is. Oh well, I assume breeders will all get in on the act when they realise they're worth more.

However if any of mine ever breed I have a problem, they were bought before Article 10 existed! I will have a house full of illegitimate parrots!

 

[noodles123]

I think we need to be more concerned about preserving species in the wild than their availability as pets. I know they are great- I wouldn't trade mine for the world, but I also think there is so much abuse and mistreatment because of keeping these wild animals as pets-- and that's part of the reason they are not populating the wild as they should be because of illegal trapping (coupled with deforestation etc)...but the pet trade is bad news...and as much as I love pet parrots, I'd go without if it meant saving them in the wild.

 

[noodles123]

Perhaps. Or since there are no wild ones on the market, everyone has to buy tame ones, and there aren't enough to go round - perhaps a lot of pet shops used to sell wild birds to unwitting people who don't know what "hand rearing" is. Oh well, I assume breeders will all get in on the act when they realise they're worth more.

However if any of mine ever breed I have a problem, they were bought before Article 10 existed! I will have a house full of illegitimate parrots!

LOL- I guess try to prevent them from breeding then. I mean, that's a super complicated/risky and expensive process as it is, let alone with regulations on top of it.

There is also a massive problem with parrots being surrendered or flipped for a profit and then abused in a breeding situation-- rescues literally are overflowing with unwanted birds and it's gotten really bad-- so that COULD have something to do with it as well...not sure

 

[hucker]

They will go extinct in the wild the same way as everything else, due to destruction of habitat. Humans are taking over the world and destroying everything in their path. If they really wanted to stop illegal imports, then they should be arresting those that are catching and importing them, not making life difficult for legitimate breeders and pet owners. £1300 is a ridiculous amount of money for someone to pay for a pet. What if it's a retired old woman on a pension?

I won't prevent mine from breeding. They're pets, but if they choose to breed, as others have in the past, then that's up to them. (Not sure why you say it's expensive and risky - I've bred parrots easily before, it comes naturally to them!) I guess I just have to explain things to Defra and hope I can get some certificates - if they won't, then what they're doing (not in my case) is encouraging a black market. Their website seems to want huge amounts of proof of ownership, which I simply do not have, they were bought privately several years ago from people no longer able to look after them (eg. one owner had dementia). But I'll cross that bridge if and when I come to it.

Rescues here have zero parrots. Dogs, loads. Cats, sometimes. Birds, never. I tried on many occasions to get some and there were none. Nobody would ever disown a parrot. Apart from being lovable, they're worth a lot of money, they'd just sell them!

 

[hucker]

Just realised I have DNA sexing certificates from 2011, maybe that's enough. But who knows with government run departments.

 

[noodles123]

Here's the thing though- these birds are more like kids than pets.
They cost a TON of money just to feed, entertain, care for, and house each year...
So if someone can't afford to buy one, they probably won't have the means to care for one long-term, because they are EXPENSIVE as heck (cost of the bird and cage aside)...Vet bills alone are huge...then the toys, produce, air filters, perches, foods etc etc etc. It would be very unwise to buy a new TAG/CAG parrot as an old lady on a pension for a variety of reasons, but cost of yearly care would definitely be VERY difficult (it is not uncommon to see birds owned by people who couldn't get them to the vet etc with curling beaks or serious issues)...If someone can't afford to properly care for a bird, or if money is so tight to begin with, there are plenty of cheaper and rewarding pets (like dogs or cats)..and if they want a bird, a smaller bird would be cheaper initially (although ALL BIRDS cost a lot long term if properly cared for).

Bird rescues are specialized- a place that rescues cats and dogs can't easily house and care for parrots (due to respiratory issues alone--cleaners and flea treatments etc being unsafe..coupled with other obvious issues relating to the species themselves)..
The average person doesn't know enough about parrots to rescue one because it's nothing like a dog or cat, so most shelters are going to outsource birds or refuse them.
There are too many homeless birds and rescues that do exist are at capacity, so people do dumb stuff, like leave them on their porch, or move without the bird, or release them outside, or give them away...or even *seriously* kill them on purpose.

You have to search for parrot rescues-- they are overflowing because they aren't on every corner, so the only people up for the job are maxed out because the demand to accept rescues is through the roof and there simply are not enough knowledgeable people up for the job...and, it's not cheap to care for these rescues, even if they are acquired for free.

If it makes you feel any better- lots of times, a history of vet bills can be used to prove ownership (at least in some cases)...So if your bird is named "Bob" and you can show 6 years of vet visits with his name on them, that proves that you got him before the legislation was in place (potentially)....I am technically supposed to have paperwork for mine these days, but I got her before it was required, so I'm not at fault because her status in the wild changed..Does that make sense? She wasn't endangered, now she is...she has no paperwork because I got her prior to that and because she was hatched before that was a requirement...Could make international travel difficult for me, but I never plan to do that with her, so...


Birds in the USA are super pricey too (way more than in pre-internet days)- so I am not sure that it related-- it could be, but I am not the most familiar with the legal mandate in question.

 

[bigfellasdad]

Ill let you have Enzo for £1150, im sick of her

 

[hucker]

I don't find they cost much. They prefer shredding cardboard boxes than expensive toys, which just get left or used to perch on. Food is much cheaper than say cat food. If you keep them healthy you don't get big vet bills. In the UK you can have one pet with free vet bills if you're on low income - the PDSA charity do it I think. And if the bird is £600 cheaper, that's £600 that can be spent on caring for it.

I tried the SSPCA and a couple of private rescues, and they had no birds of any kind. Maybe it's different over there. Anyone here with an unwanted bird is going to sell it privately, so they get some money and can see it's going to a good home. I do know someone down in the south of England (I'm in Scotland) that said he has got quite a few birds from "Safehaven", but when I signed up to them, there were no birds anywhere in Scotland.

Since mine have all been perfectly healthy for the 9 years I've had them, they've not been to a vet (apart from one with a wing twitch - but that was after 2017). All I've got is a DNA sexing certificate from just after I got them. That is one of the things Defra accept, but I'm not sure if only one thing would do.

 

[hucker]

Ill let you have Enzo for £1150, im sick of her

Awww so cute! Nobody could get sick of her. She looks playful, although you can never tell. I know of a Scarlet Macaw who at random loves 50% of people and hates the other 50%. Doesn't seem to be anything to do with sex, height, age, or anything. She just cuddles some people and bites (hard!) the rest.

 

[bigfellasdad]

Id never let her leave, she is ace
If I was after an African Grey I would not have a clue where to get one from here in the UK. There are websites where breeders sell them but I wouldn't trust them. As for rescues, also very rare in the UK but I think a few are available. I was lucky to get Enzo as a neighbour worked part time for a local animal sanctuary and she took in the birds until rehomed, Enzo was one of 8 birds she had that chose me, she has another CAG, Dill.... an adorable bird too. I think in the US, the bird 'scene' is very different to the UK although bird ownership is very widespread here too.

As for certification etc causing a decline, i really dont know but when you go to exotic pet shops I must say, you dont see greys

 

[hucker]

The best place to get parrots in the UK is from Gumtree, birdtrader, pets4homes, etc. There are about 5 or 6 websites which allow private ads for birds. It can be a pet for rehoming, or a breeder selling babies. That's where I got all mine, privately as 7 year old pets. I went to their houses and could see how they were looked after and how healthy they were. Mind you I don't think that would have made a difference, if they weren't well cared for I'd have bought them anyway so I could give them a better life. The only thing that would have swayed me was how friendly they were with me.

You used to be able to get Greys in petshops, like "Pets at home" - a large store for buying pet food. They were always few and far between though. Not sure if that's been banned now - I think you can no longer buy dogs and/or cats in petshops?

So do Americans have more parrots? The UK seems to be obsessed with dogs.

 

[noodles123]

I don't find they cost much. They prefer shredding cardboard boxes than expensive toys, which just get left or used to perch on. Food is much cheaper than say cat food. If you keep them healthy you don't get big vet bills. In the UK you can have one pet with free vet bills if you're on low income - the PDSA charity do it I think. And if the bird is £600 cheaper, that's £600 that can be spent on caring for it.

I tried the SSPCA and a couple of private rescues, and they had no birds of any kind. Maybe it's different over there. Anyone here with an unwanted bird is going to sell it privately, so they get some money and can see it's going to a good home. I do know someone down in the south of England (I'm in Scotland) that said he has got quite a few birds from "Safehaven", but when I signed up to them, there were no birds anywhere in Scotland.

Since mine have all been perfectly healthy for the 9 years I've had them, they've not been to a vet (apart from one with a wing twitch - but that was after 2017). All I've got is a DNA sexing certificate from just after I got them. That is one of the things Defra accept, but I'm not sure if only one thing would do.

You still should take them 1x yearly for a checkup and a minimum of 1x every 3 for blood work---just because they could have something going on without showing symptoms.

It may be different over there in terms of abundance-- in the USA it's a huge issue. Parrot Confidential is a documentary that they made about the problem and it's kind of interesting.

Do you have a receipt of purchase or charge on your bank record?

 

[hucker]

I don't tend to do maintainance. I don't go to the dentist unless I have a problem. I don't service my car or my central heating. I make sure the birds are healthy, a sick bird looks distressed, uninterested, less lively and playful etc. The only problem I've had with 3 of them in 9 years is one had a twitchy wing. He wasn't using the cuttlefish bone etc that the others were, and lacked calcium. A quick call to the vet by videophone (didn't even have to go in) and he suggested putting it into his food, so I now grind it up and mix it in so he can't taste it.

I'd be interested in knowing exactly how common they are over there. I wonder if there's a website with populations of dogs, cats, parrots in the UK and USA? Seems strange there would be much difference, unless it's just a cultural thing - most Brits love dogs.

I purchased them with cash since they were private sales. No records of anything apart from the DNA tests. That may be enough. But if they never breed, it doesn't matter.

 

[hucker]

Found the stats, these are percentages of households owning each type of pet:

UK:
Bird: 1%
Dog: 25%
Cat: 17%

USA:
Bird: 2.8%
Dog: 38.4%
Cat: 25.4%

So there is a difference but not a huge difference. 2.8 times as many of you have birds, 1.5 times as many have dogs, and 1.5 times as many have cats.

I wonder if it's because Americans like pets more, or because they're richer, or because there's more room?

Sources:
https://www.avma.org/resources-tools/reports-statistics/us-pet-ownership-statistics
https://www.pfma.org.uk/pet-population-2019

 

[noodles123]

I don't tend to do maintainance. I don't go to the dentist unless I have a problem. I don't service my car or my central heating. I make sure the birds are healthy, a sick bird looks distressed, uninterested, less lively and playful etc. The only problem I've had with 3 of them in 9 years is one had a twitchy wing. He wasn't using the cuttlefish bone etc that the others were, and lacked calcium. A quick call to the vet by videophone (didn't even have to go in) and he suggested putting it into his food, so I now grind it up and mix it in so he can't taste it.

I'd be interested in knowing exactly how common they are over there. I wonder if there's a website with populations of dogs, cats, parrots in the UK and USA? Seems strange there would be much difference, unless it's just a cultural thing - most Brits love dogs.

Here is my novella (LOL) on why I say they are expensive :

You still should take them 1x yearly for a checkup and a minimum of 1x every 3 for blood work---just because they could have something going on without showing symptoms (they can hide things for years--so if you have a bird that hides a disease for 10 years and dies at age 15 when it was supposed to live to 80, that's pretty major, given the cost of the bird and attachment we form).
At 1x per year for a basic checkup, you are looking at at least $100- and then if you get a CBC, $300. Plus special disease panels which can run $300+ if you choose to have those performed.

Side-note: In the US- dental maintenance thing is common, so maybe this is a mindset difference, but with insurance people go to the dentist every 6 months to a year unless they avoid it on purpose lol. This is when lots of little things get caught (before they become bigger, more painful issues).

I want to emphasize that even a very well-cared-for parrots can have illnesses that are unexpected and undetected until they rear their heads (e.g., ABV, PDD, PBFD, congenital defects etc--- all of which can remain asymptomatic for as little as 2 weeks or for up to a lifetime). Then there are things like broken blood feathers or random bacterial infections that can happen--if someone has to bank on their bird staying healthy and never having to go to the vet, then that person isn't a good candidate for a bird (unless they have to funds needed in the event that something happens, as it can, even with the best care). Because things like PBFD can be spread through feather dust in HVAC systems and remain viable for years, it's another thing more people should consider testing their birds for (because a seemingly healthy bird could suddenly have a flare up and even if they never do, they could infect and kill other birds without ever appearing ill- kind of like COVID-19, but much worse)...

In terms of food, it depends on what type you feed and how much cooking you do for your bird as well and what type of pellet you use. I would say on pellets and seeds alone I spend at least $100 a year (and I buy the cheaper type of pellets---people who feed the good stuff are likely spending more), plus, I know I spend over $200 yearly (at least) on produce etc. The water in my area is bad, so it's not safe for her to drink, which means she also drinks bottled or purified water due to lead and heavy-metals/pesticides in this area's supply (I am not a water snob- but this stuff isn't safe--I grew up being okay with tap and well water, so please don't think I am exaggerating)...so that's another few bucks a week. Then there are the special cleaners safer for birds (which aren't that much more than regular cleaners if you do the math on dilution, but recently I had to pay a pretty hefty shipping cost for my F10 due to some weird USA hang-up that has temporarily limited the supply available at retailers...then a lifetime supply of endless paper-towels...tack on at least $10 every 2 weeks.

In terms of wooden toys (which aren't cheap), standard wood at the hardware store (like plywood) is chemically treated/unsafe and "wild" wood isn't necessarily safe if it was grown anywhere near a road where it could absorb run-off, or was treated with pesticides or fungicides at any time in it's lifetime- on top of that, the wood of certain trees is toxic, so if you find a pristine tree that is non-toxic and far away from man-kind (lol) then you have to remove the bark, scrub it and bake it to kill larvae, fungi, and bacteria/viruses (as captive birds don't have the same immune systems of wild birds, and because even if they did, 90% of the time, the diseases, insects and tree bark we could provide would be non-native to their natural habitats.
If a bird doesn't chew, it's going to get a long beak and then that will lead to vet appointments for trimming or eventually as a result of health problems from the beak itself. Even if you make your own toys, in order for it to be a savings, you have to have a safe source of untreated wood and the tools to chop it up etc...Then the stainless steel hardware to string it up (because other metals aren't safe) and stainless is harder to find and more expensive. My bird can destroy a large wooden toy in one afternoon. So that ends up costing A LOT over time (even if you are thrifty).

^Cardboard can be great, but it takes a lot more variety to keep them stimulated- and for some birds, cardboard is a huge hormonal trigger, so that type of shredded material has to be monitored carefully.

There is also the cost of never being able to use standard cookware or appliances containing PTFE/PFOA/PFCs or Teflon/ having to replace your old---Unsafe cookware is more common and cheaper than stainless or ceramic, but you can't safely use it in the same home. Also, let's say you want to paint something in your house, you have to get O VOC paint, which is double the price of regular...So you end up spending a lot on things indirectly related to the bird...just thought of another-- a good hand-vac and humidifier...as well as possibly cage covers or black-out curtains.

On top of that- I have a powder-down bird as well (but she is larger--umbrella cockatoo) which means super efficient air filters are very important for my health and hers. Her dust coats everything (despite bathing and daily sweeping etc) and it gets into their respiratory systems and ours. For a while, I had a crappy little air purifier unit running and it did collect dander, but after dropping several hundred on a model that I would never have thought I would shell out the cash to buy, I am very happy I did. The previous owner of this home used Glade Plug-ins (known toxic for birds) and before I moved the bird in, I washed all the curtain, washed the walls, changed the furnace filter, cleaned every cabinet etc, and blew fans out the windows for days----the house still smelled like paint and perfume. I got that purifier (true hepa with VOC filtration) and you cannot detect even the slightest hint of paint or perfume now..So, in terms of a bird's health (and a human's) a good air purifier is important- and they aren't cheap--and neither are the filters.

Add to this running tally of costs a very large cage and probably at least 1-2 replacements over the course of a lifetime at at least $1000-$4000 a pop for a medium to large bird (depending on the size)...as well as a decent travel cage ($50 to $300, depending on the brand) and play-stands for around the house ($100-500 each-even if you make your own--the supplies will be at least $100 for a good-sized one), and let's not forget a variety of safe perches that will have to be replaced often...and harnesses are another possible expense if you choose to take your bird outdoors.

All of these costs fall on top of the initial cost of the bird, which generally ranges from $1000 to $5000....and if you ever leave town and cannot travel with your bird, then you are looking at boarding costs (and while some shops will do this for lower costs, the issue is the risk of exposure to asymptomatic disease carriers in such settings). When travelling with a dog or cat, you don't have to worry about whether the hotel staff will be bleaching the bathroom or spraying for insects etc- but with a bird, you do, so it's harder to travel with them (depending on the destination) and therefore, boarding is more likely in certain circumstances.

Finally, lots of people have issues with their birds chewing on things of value or pooping on the carpet by mistake...or throwing berries and staining property-- all more expenses.

Not a cheap pet in my opinion....and with a dog or cat, you are looking at roughly 10-20 years of care and expenses, versus upwards of 80 years in a healthy Grey.
If you have to make an entry in your will, that is also an added expense...and if you live in a place where noise complaints are a problem, a bird is more likely to generate that sort of attention than another pet (and fines and eviction can be possible consequences).




In the USA, there are tons of birds here is need of homes-- they are pretty easy to find too, so that is likely a difference-it's a huge issue. Parrot Confidential is a documentary about the problem and it's on Netflix or Amazon I believe

I don't think Americans are richer-- there are lots of people who buy birds for their kids or because they have always thought they would be "cool pets" and then quickly realize that they are in over their heads or that the screaming is driving them crazy, or that the bird hates their family and is aggressive, or plucks its feathers or costs too much, or lives forever, or their new partner dislikes the bird etc, and then the bird ends up getting neglected and pawned off on someone else, sold or surrendered...Many birds like cockatoos see 8 or more homes in one lifetime .


As far as documentation is concerned, do you have a receipt of purchase or charge on your bank record?

 

[hucker]

Even doing all that doesn't sound expensive to me - $100 a year for the vet, $100 a year for dry food, come on, think how much you spend on your own food! Think how many tins of cat food you'd get through for a cat. Dogs and cats cost way more because they're bigger and eat more. And have the same vet bills and house damage costs. In fact everyone I know with dogs and cats have huge vet bills because those animals go outside where they can pick up infections.

Already answered last time - I bought them with cash as they were private sales, you can't get them in pet shops here (probably banned), no bank record.

Oh Americans are WAY richer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
By a ratio of 21.4 to 2.7!
You guys are on average EIGHT TIMES richer. You have no idea what it's like in the UK. Nobody can afford anything.