Unsure about Breeder - PLEASE Read, Advise, Help

[Raphael]

Hi everyone!

I've been wanting to get an African Grey for a while now and have spent the last 3-4 months researching extensively on the breed, training etc. My parents had a cockatoo so I'm not a completely new to birds, though obviously this would be my first time buying myself.

Anyhoo, after speaking with two breeders, visiting a residential home where their pet was up for sale and not feeling comfortable I came across another ad on PreLoved, let's call him Breeder#3 or 'Bart'.

I had a long string of emails go back and forth with Bart. He has 20-25yrs experience works from home and we eventually had a very long phone call too. During the call he very briefly mentioned he had 3 birds which have all gone now but he had lowered the price "to get rid of them quickly" without ellaborating and the conversation moved on. He sounded very caring, passionate and assured me of his professionalism and experience. We talked at length about certain aspects of ownership. He told me some stories of his own birds, how he got started and into breeding etc etc. He has 2 baby Congos available now which he said would be ready in about 3 weeks, and would cost me £550. No cage included.

I really am hoping for some communal advice, thoughts and opinions on Bart and this situation I have described as I am unsure what to do, whether I have been filled with 'Sales Patter' or if my concerns are justified.

My problems or issues are these;

- Bart has said the two babies will be ready in 3 weeks; at 8-9 weeks old. All I had read said 12 weeks minimum.
- They will need spoon fed twice a day for a couple weeks, then they'll start to move onto regular diet Bart said. (Also said he'll provide the powder to mix to a paste for this spoon feeding, and that he's never had a problem with anyone hand feeding in all his experience & years.)
- When I mentioned everything I'd read suggested the bird should be 12 weeks old, he said he finds it better at 8/9 because the bird is still dependent on you for a while so helps to build the bond etc and makes a difference in that sense because you're helping to raise the bird.

After the call I felt completely reassured, he was pleasant, seemed very genuine and approachable, knowledgable and trust worthy. The only niggle I had with him after all these emails & the phone call was that he wasn't overly into the thought of me visiting regularly as a) it's his home and he doesn't like people 'coming and going' as it's unsettling for the birds and eyes nothing to see as all they do is eat and sleep, b) he has a second job and doesn't like to be tied down and c) the birds will be 'ready to take home' in 3 weeks anyway, so it'd be a wasted trip for me to travel over to him only to have to come back in another week or 2 to collect. Though when pressed he did say I could visit once if I really wanted to and did offer to send me new photos weekly or daily if I wanted.

I wanted to visit to see which of the toe birds 'chose me', but he says it doesn't always work like that and by taking them @ 8-9 weeks the bond would be strong anyway.

So this is all fair and well, so I thought.

A few days later he got in touch to say he had 2 interested parties but wanted to give me first refusal on one of the birds. I emailed back to say I was interested but stopped short of sending a deposit (it's a big purchase, decision and I don't want to rush in) so instead asked some additional questions; Are the birds close rung, do they come with a certificate and did he have any contacts for insurance or an idea of approximate cost?

His reply was; one of the two was ringed, no papers or certificates though he advised I could make one myself or buy the papers online and he would give me the birth date! As for insurance, he'd never needed it in his 20-25 years experience as all his birds are healthy he said.

So immediately I thought the following; Why would you ring one baby and not the other? Weird. Second, no papers? Make your own? A little unprofessional but I guess it made sense. He said they weren't worth much because they're so easily made & faked. I have friends in IT so could easily get something realistic made up if I wanted, but that is besides the point. And the answer on insurance shocked me a little and made me wonder if *I* was being over protective or too worrying/precautious.


This would have been the end of the post, except yesterday as I was closing down loooads of open parrot related browser tabs I had a selling site open and happened to browse the results. As I did I noticed "Diseased African Greys for sale". I scrolled passed and about to hit the close / red X button I stopped myself out of curiosity and thought; who's going to buy a DISEASED bird!? And at what cost? I also then noticed there was LOADS of these diseased bird listings from lots of different sellers. Over 50% of the listings were for diseased baby African greys! So anyway, I scrolled back up to the initial listing that caught my eye and clicked it...... I was SHOCKED to find this seller was based in the same town as Bart. A little more reading and I discover Bart's phone numbers! IT WAS BARTS LISTING!!! Diseased African Greys for £550! The ad was for 3 birds not 2, but it had been posted about 2-3 days after I started talking with Bart (last week!) and also mentioned the "Reduced Price" of 550 given their health condition (PFBD - poor immune system, malforming beat, nails & feathers - uncurable).

After some bad gut feelings with other breeders/sellers I've spoken to in the last 4 weeks and then feeling so happy with Bart I can't tell you how disappointed, angry & confused I feel. His listing mentioned PBFD which I now know all about from googling and obviously don't want to buy a bird that's diseased which could die within a year!

How do you know who to trust?
How can you be sure you're not being lied to? Even the papers are easily faked! It's really put me off, and even though I still want a bird I can't afford to risk buying a diseased one.

I've thought about having another phone conversation with Bart to ask about disease testing, and any health guarantees on the bird (Do such things exist?) to try and catch him out and mention the listing of his I found, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

What do you guys make and think of all this?
The take-home age? The rings & papers? The disease listing!
Should I demand a vet check for clean bill of health? Surely I shouldn't have to cover that!

What would you do in this situation?


Since finding this forum I've read about unweaned birds being illegal to sell, people recommending 14-16 weeks before taking home (all breeders I've spoke to have said 12, except 'Bart' who said 8-9). So much contradictory advice.

The only local shop I had a bad experience on the phone with as the owner wash out snappy and just unpleasant to speak to so I never called them back or went to see their birds. There are no other local breeders in my part of England that I've been able to find, so the situation seems difficult.

Any advice, help and guidance would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Kimma]

Gah, that sounds awful. I don't have anything helpful to say, I just wanted to commiserate.

Well, one maybe helpful thing. A legit breeder should be happy to have a returns window that allows time to take the bird for a health check and then return for a refund if it's not healthy.

But how does a baby get PBFD anyway? If the parents have it, why breed from sick birds? If it came from somewhere else, how does a breeder manage to infect their babies?

 

[TessieB]

Why on Earth would somebody advertise diseased birds for sale?

As for suggestions, I would ask for references, and ask who the seller uses as a veterinarian and have a phone conversation with him or her.

 

[thekarens]

My partner's first grey had pbfd. She was new to parrots at the time and took him to the vet when red feathers started to appear on his body. He lived to be 3. It's a terrible disease.

OP my recommendation would to get your baby from a breeder that has many good reviews or if you know a bird person you trust get a recommendation from them. Maybe someone on this board can help you. I'm sorry you had to experience this.

 

[Echo]

RUN!! Do not buy from that breeder period! That breeder has poor ethics. He sells unweaned birds and babies with a highly contagious and awful disease. I wouldn't buy a Grey younger than 16 weeks.
You should always get a Health Guarantee. Find a breeder who sells weaned birds with good reviews. A lot of them offer DNA testing and you can also ask for disease testing at the same time for piece of mind.

 

[christine]

Echo, what do you mean by a Health Guarantee? Does that mean not only does the breeder take the bird back & refund you for the bird, but also for your vet expense to test the bird?

I was always under the impression that you were responsible for those vet bills even if your bird came back positive for PBFD.

Just wondering if that's a common practice for future bird purchases.

 

[Raphael]

A thorough checking including tests is not going to come at a low cost. Why should a new owner have to pay for this? When you buys. New car you don't go for an MOT to make sure it's road worthy.

Surely the Breeder should be ensuring the birds are perfectly healthy either by providing the vet checks free of change (or built into their price) or offering a guarantee if they're that confident - with a return & full refund period - but even then it could be months down the line before you realise something is wrong. :31:

As for the disease in babies, I've read that the parents can be carriers if the contracted it when they were older with a built up immune system. It's highly contegeous.

 

[Maria_Metropolis]

I'm also doing lots of research into breeders, and all the ones I've spoken with give a 72 hour guarantee that the animal is not sick after a vet checkup. They all also refuse to provide a baby that's not fully hand weened.

Yet, I still did not leave a deposit with any of them because I've heard horror stories about breeders. There is one that has a great reputation from someone I know that purchased a bird from her, but she's charging more than anyone else. Therefore, I wonder sometimes about birds sold at a deep discount too now. I'm very skeptical, and some can call me paranoid, however good for any of us, including you, doing your homework and going about this slowly.

I know a lady that went through ten breeders and lost over $1K in money which she had to get back via her credit card insurance, from corrupt breeders, so keep searching. You may have to ship a bird to be able to find the breeder of your choice. Get referrals too if you can. It's not a bad thing to ask for them.

I also recommend going on facebook or any other site, to have someone recommend a breeder of African Greys to you. On FB, there are various groups dedicated to specific breeds, and you can see photos of many owners' pets. Look at the ones with the healthiest and happiest new young pets, and email them if they're willing to share their breeder, and their overall experience with their breeder.

I also wonder what everyone thinks about people that sell parrots at bird faires. I hear there's a lot of disease transmission there, so I'm ambivalent too about buying a bird from a faire. If someone wants to comment, please do.

 

[Raphael]

PS; here is the site with all those listings of diseased birds for what, from what I can tell, are 'full price' for regular birds, let alone if they're diseased. And yes, "Bart's" ad is on that page somewhere too.

Birds4SaleUK - Categories -



I had no idea diseased birds were so common and so many were for sale, and that they'd be at what seems to be full price. It's disgusting.

 

[Raphael]

Just out of curiosity, I decided to call a number of those "DISEASED" adverts on the website I linked to above.

Out of 3 adverts (none of them Bart), none of the sellers/breeders knew anything about diseased birds. I confirmed the advert text and mobile numbers to the people I spoke to but they all said they never put diseased into their advert titles.

Two of them even said to me, "who's going to buy a diseased bird?" To which I replied well that's what I was thinking hence my call.

Very strange indeed. Does anyone have any info on this or why all these adverts may be popping up like this? Makes finding an accurate advert / trustworthy breeder even harder!

 

[Raphael]

In an update to my last post I called a 4th breeder from the website birds4saleuk.co.uk and they also knew nothing of diseased birds - their advert title was "PBFD Diseased African Grey Baby for sale" but they'd never heard of the site. They were at the computer so i gave them the full URL to take a look. And we're surprised to see the ad.

I decided to investigate the site a bit more looking for contact details, T&Cs page is a no content link, as was the about us page. The sell with us link however contained content. It seems to me from looking at the site that it could well be bogus with the owner copying other listings and adding "Diseased" almost like a prefix to the adverts, which otherwise read with some credibility.


So my question now is, for those of you who have read and been following... assuming this website is a fraud and the concerns raised from listing on it are disregarded, does this make Bart my initial breeder worth a shot?

Still a few questions to ask him, how come no need to deal with insurances, why is only one of your two birds rung, why no hatch certificate etc.. or do you think I should still avoid? :/

 

[Caesar]

My mate hade the same problem. He answered a add on one of those sites like gumtree/EBay .This breeder was selling all his Indian Ringnecks at $75 and some of them were beautiful pied that would fetch a hell of a lot more.
The bird Died in a week.
I stick to the rule :If it sounds to good to be true it usually isn't .

 

[Echo]

In an update to my last post I called a 4th breeder from the website birds4saleuk.co.uk and they also knew nothing of diseased birds - their advert title was "PBFD Diseased African Grey Baby for sale" but they'd never heard of the site. They were at the computer so i gave them the full URL to take a look. And we're surprised to see the ad.

I decided to investigate the site a bit more looking for contact details, T&Cs page is a no content link, as was the about us page. The sell with us link however contained content. It seems to me from looking at the site that it could well be bogus with the owner copying other listings and adding "Diseased" almost like a prefix to the adverts, which otherwise read with some credibility.


So my question now is, for those of you who have read and been following... assuming this website is a fraud and the concerns raised from listing on it are disregarded, does this make Bart my initial breeder worth a shot?

Still a few questions to ask him, how come no need to deal with insurances, why is only one of your two birds rung, why no hatch certificate etc.. or do you think I should still avoid? :/

IMO Bart still sells unweaned babies and doesn't offer a health guarantee right? So not a great prospect....

 

[Echo]

Echo, what do you mean by a Health Guarantee? Does that mean not only does the breeder take the bird back & refund you for the bird, but also for your vet expense to test the bird?

I was always under the impression that you were responsible for those vet bills even if your bird came back positive for PBFD.

Just wondering if that's a common practice for future bird purchases.

A Health Guarantee is a good faith from the breeder that the baby is delivered to you healthy. You usually have a period of time to have the bird vet checked to confirm good health. In the event that the bird is not found healthy, the breeder takes the bird back and offers a refund or another baby.
The tests are the responsibility of the owner of the bird, not the breeder.

 

[christine]

That's really weird. If the people who are selling the birds don't realize they are being advertised like that then you should send them a screen shot or something. But then again, maybe someone is going and changing their ads purposefully to warn others or something.

 

[jenphilly]

I tried doing some homework too, trying to determine if it was a language issue, someone hoaxing the listings and meaning to identify them as disease free or vaccinated, etc.

I would report the issue to the website, but honestly, the Bart you describe, I have to say, he's not a breeder I'd adopt from. We have birds from breeders and both were so sweet and wanted to be sure their babies went not only to good homes, but to the right homes for the bird. When my daughter got her turquoise green cheek, she drove over two hours twice just to visit before he was ready to come home. Then all of us drove out the day Hijikata was weaned and ready to come home.

A good breeder would never suggest taking an unweaned baby, there are so many problems that could arise... food too hot, food too cold, too much, crop infection, etc. We hand raised (my daughter, I take no credit), two baby cockatiels that were born here due to an oopsie (our second cockatiel was a rescue and was supposed to be a girl, he was a pearl male)... Its not something to take on lightly, we only hand fed the babies because dad was a plucker and the babies would have died. But its not a simple spoon feeding couple times a day. And I don't buy that hand feeding them will make them bond to you any more then adopting an adult! Our cockatoo is a rehomed / adoption and I don't think she could be any more loving or affectionate if we had gotten her at 8 weeks and hand fed her.

My opinion... any breeder who puts his convenience over the best of the babies, is in it for all the wrong reasons....

Put another post up in the bird specific forum and ask for breeders near you. You may need to make a day trip out of it, but it is so worth getting a baby from a loving, caring breeder. And most breeders do a first vet check themselves to ensure the baby is healthy, and like someone else posted, they typically give you x-amount of time to get the baby to a bird vet for a followup checkup to confirm all is well.

And I have to jump up on my adoption soapbox real quick.... Think about adopting! You can bypass alot of the growing and maturing problems by adopting a bird that is a few years old, after in the general scheme of 50plus year lifespan, 3 is still a baby!!

Good luck!!!

Jen

 

[getwozzy]

I would steer clear of the Bart guy...hand feeding an unweaned bird is not an easy task. There are so many things that could go wrong- if you make the formula too warm you risk burning their crop, or if you feed them the wrong way you risk aspiration. IMHO it's better to wait until your bird is fully weaned before bringing him/her home....unless you're fully confident with hand feeding.

And honestly- waiting another few weeks for a weaned bird won't make a difference with bonding. We got chili (galah) at age 6.5 months and she bonded just fine with us.

 

[Raphael]

Thanks for all the thoughts and opinions guys, I really appreciate it.

In regards to the website I have looked at it and the site is a fake/fraud. No real contact info at all, a home user hosting & domain company and blank T&C and About Us pages. It seems just like a template site to copy people's genuine adverts on to, amending the title in an attempt to put people off the genuine sellers. Which, to be frank worked on me. And even though I know this now I'm still uneasy because it's tainted my thoughts if you will.

Re "Bart", and the above mentioned website aside. I don't think he doesn't care about the birds. He told me stories of people he wouldn't sell to, who's home he had seen or heard how they'd lost/treated a previous bird and declined the sale (amicably & tactfully to spare their feelings), so he does seem genuine in his passion & care. Maybe he just has an alternate opinion on the weaning thing - but I do appreciate its a serious and big issue.

If I can get a vet check (and I assume proof of? Certificate or something??) thrown in with the price, and he agrees to ring, give hatch certification and fully wean the bird until 14-16 weeks for me, I'm thinking maybe take it then? With those conditions met, the only downer is that it's been hand reared as opposed to parent/bird reared, right? So he/she may still think they're a human rather than knowing they're not (and knowing they're a bird).

Or is that a big deal and or deal breaker too? :/

Many thanks again for your replies peeps, you've all been ace so far. Thank you.

 

[getwozzy]

If he agrees to fully wean the bird, provide all documentation, and the bird checks out healthy by a certified avian vet, then I don't see a reason not to get him/her...

 

[henpecked]

It's easy for us who have handfed many babies to say ,it's not a big deal. But it is. Let him wean the bird and take responsibility for his "product".He sounds like a "broker' who buys babies and handfeeds out. The younger he can sell to you,, the less time and effort he has involved.BTW if it wasn't 'ringed" with in the first 10 days then it can't be done. it could only be an "open" band which means little.