Help Alexandrian that don't leave the nest

[Betrisher]

Y'know, I never thought of that. I bet it does have some bearing though. 'Setta's snoozing atm, having washed every blessed thing she owns in her water bowl. The bottom of the cage is wet mush. Lucky me. Guess what I'll be doing for the foreseeable future.

Thing is, I've just put together the batter for this year's boiled fruitcake and eaten far more of it - quality control, y'know - than is healthy for *any*one. Burp! I don't think I'll feel like cage cleaning for a little while...

 

[EllenD]

Do we know where the OP is located? Lol, good points being made by all, but we lost the OP in the process...I hope that the OP realizes that we here are very passionate about our birds, and birds in-general, and in the US, the UK, Canada, etc., it's unfortunately very common for people to "hoard" parrots or buy a parrot and not house/feed them correctly when they have every opportunity to do so, they just don't...Sometimes we forget that different countries have cultural, environmental, and social differences and standards than we do when it comes to keeping/breeding birds, and we have to be reminded of this from time to time...The one thing I can assure the OP is that everyone here means well and gives pretty good information, and for the most-part are extremely educated in owning, raising, and many also in breeding parrots, so we can answer your questions...

I was confused as to what the OP's main goal was, I wasn't sure if he wanted to breed this pair or tame this pair as pets, or both I guess...Doing both is extremely difficult, as once a pair of birds of the same species and opposite sex are bonded-closely with one another, and also living in a small "breeder cage" with a nest-box attached, they are going to have little to no interest in having any contact with humans at all...There are extremely rare exceptions to this, but they are very few and far between, and usually the circumstances surrounding these situations are quite unusual...

For the most part, when you have a breeding-pair of parrots like you do that are already bonded-closely and living together in a cage with a nest-box, and have already been mating/breeding, it's extremely difficult to hand-tame them and have either one of them bond with you again, unless you separate the pair into their own cages and into different rooms so they cannot see each other or have any contact with each other anymore...And even that doesn't always work if they are still in the same house and they can still hear each other or sense that their mate is still nearby...A lot of the time when people attempt to separate an already-bonded breeding pair of parrots, what they end-up with is two parrots living alone and doing nothing but screaming all day long for each other...

So usually you unfortunately need to choose one or the other, either keep them as a breeding-pair of birds and work on making their environment and diet better to not only encourage breeding, but to also make fertile-eggs that will survive/hatch successfully more probable, OR you could try to start working with them each individually, away from each other and alone in a different room with just you and one of the birds with a shut-door, and see if you could possibly succeed in taming them, but if I'm being honest with you, usually all that ends-up happening if you attempt this is you getting very frustrated because the hand-taming/bonding process is not working at all, and in the meantime you doing this with them each every single day, which you would have to in-order to even have a chance at taming them, and also the chance of successfully breeding them is also slim to none because of the stress and separation you cause the pair...

So if I were you, if you do really want to breed this pair of Alex's successfully (and maybe then hand-tame one of their babies as a pet-only-bird for yourself), I would do two things if they are at all possible for you to do, in-order to make their environment and their health more apt to successful breeding...#1) I would work on their regular, daily diets...I realize that you may not have access to a commercial pellet diet for you birds, and you may need to feed them a seed-mix as their main, staple diet. There's nothing wrong with feeding your birds (and this goes for ALL of your parrots) a main,
"staple" diet of a seed-mix, AS LONG as it is a seed-mix that is as low in fat as possible, and AS LONG as it is supplemented each day with lots of fresh veggies, fresh dark, leafy greens, and a little bit of fresh fruit (fresh fruit should only be given 2-3 days of the week in small portions due to the high sugar content, especially since they are eating seed as their staple diet)...You do not want to feed them a seed-mix every day that contains any type of Sunflower Seeds, as they are very high in fat, nor should it contain any type of Nuts, especially Peanuts, nor should it contain any type of dried Corn kernels or dried cracked-Corn. If you can either buy or mix/make a seed-mix that contains no sunflower seeds, no nuts, and no dried corn, but instead contains a large variety of healthier seeds that are lower in fat than the sunflower seeds, and that also contains different fresh grains, legumes, etc., this is going to improve their health tremendously, as will giving them whatever fresh veggies and dark, leafy greens you have available to you...The only veggies or greens you can't feed your birds are Onions, Leeks, Chives, etc., any veggie in the "onion family", as they are toxic to birds, and also no "watery" lettuces, like Iceberg Lettuce, as they contain little nutritional value at all and are mostly water...And never any Avocado for a fruit, it is also toxic...

#2) Trying your best to find them a larger cage to live in...The cage that you have them in is incredibly small for one Alex, let alone two Alex's that you want to breed and raise healthy babies...No one is telling you this to be critical of you or mean to you, but rather to educate you for the good of your birds. In that small of a cage your birds are getting no exercise at all, and on a seed-mix diet with little to no exercise they are quickly developing Fatty Liver Disease, and also possibly Diabetes...And a HUGE ISSUE that may play a part in successfully breeding them is that Alex's are extremely prone to obesity...So the combination of the all-seed-diet that is very fatty and then living in such a small cage where they are getting no exercise at all and can hardly even move around in or flap their wings in is likely going to result in the birds becoming overweight, and eventually obese, which can and will interfere with the female successfully producing healthy eggs, being able to lay them properly, and the eggs themselves being healthy and able to support an embryo. [B/] As a parrot gains weight, their Keel Bone (the long, pointy bone that runs down the middle of their chest and belly) is pushed further and further out and away from their abdomen because of the fat accumulating in and around their bellies...This is called "Sternal-Lift". And when a female bird is overweight and develops Sternal-Lift, what basically happens is the location of their internal organs changes, and this includes their Reproductive Organs, specifically the Oviduct where the eggs sit once they are made but before they are laid...And what happens with overweight/obese female birds is that their bodies make the eggs, but instead of the eggs being deposited in the Oviduct and then laid by the female, they end-up being deposited outside of the Oviduct and are just dropped into the free space in their abdomen...And this is the one way the Egg-Binding occurs that is 100% fatal for the female without surgery to remove the egg...It can never be fertilized by the male and it can never be laid by the female, it has nowhere to go, it just sits inside of their bellies and basically rots, until the rotten egg causes a systemic bacterial infection in the female...And without surgery to remove the egg from the female's belly, the female dies a long and painful death...And obesity is the #1 cause of this type of Egg-Binding, and is most often seen in species of Amazons and Alexandrines due to their propensity for obesity. The other type of Egg-Binding is where the egg is made and IS deposited into the Oviduct, but due to nutritional deficiencies that the female has because of their daily diet, the eggs are very soft or underdeveloped, and this makes them impossible for the female to expel from their body...The best way to avoid this type of Egg-Binding is by always providing a Cuttlebone and a Mineral Block to your female so that she gets extra Calcium and Phosphorous, but also by providing them a daily diet that is full of fresh veggies and dark, leafy greens, and by eliminating the sunflower seeds, nuts, and dried corn from their diets...

However, if your birds are living in a cage large enough for them to move around, climb up and down the bars, and most importantly be able to flap their wings without them touching the cage bars, this will help tremendously because they will be getting exercise to keep the fat from accumulating in their bodies...The other issue with a cage that is far too small is that it can also cause them a lot of stress every day, because they cannot ever get away from each other, they can't ever really move around, they can't open their wings, etc., and this can cause them a great amount of stress, which is obviously not good if you're wanting them to successfully breed and lay fertile, healthy eggs that will survive and hatch...So if there is any way at all that you can find a much larger cage to keep this breeding-pair in (with the nest-box attached to the outside of the cage through a door, so it's not taking up a bunch of the cage space that they can use), their overall physical and mental health is going to improve greatly, and this will improve the odds of them breeding successfully.

 

[Betrisher]

Do we know where the OP is located? Lol, good points being made by all, but we lost the OP in the process...

Sokkary didn't say where he was from, but in his photo you can see a structure made from Rilico Gold. That's a kind of plywood available in Asia, so that and the way the OP writes suggested to me that he might be in India or Pakistan, where Alexes are native species.

I hope that the OP realizes that we here are very passionate about our birds, and birds in-general, and in the US, the UK, Canada, etc., it's unfortunately very common for people to "hoard" parrots or buy a parrot and not house/feed them correctly when they have every opportunity to do so, they just don't...

I don't think the OP got the chance to realise much at all, having been descended upon with a lot of criticism. The amount of excellent advice given to him was amazing, but I fear the criticism might have been too much for him to want to stick around.

Sometimes we forget that different countries have cultural, environmental, and social differences and standards than we do when it comes to keeping/breeding birds, and we have to be reminded of this from time to time...

So very true. One of my very best birding friends and the one who has taught me more about Alexandrines than anyone was driven away from our forum by ongoing criticism of his set-up. Not once did anyone stop to inquire where he lived and what was available to him. Nor did they give any concession to his very basic command of English, using idiomatic phrases and complicated wording that completely confused him. Yet, that man has been breeding walloping great healthy Nepalese Alexandrines for years and years and continues to enjoy lovely healthy parent-raised babies.

The one thing I can assure the OP is that everyone here means well and gives pretty good information, and for the most-part are extremely educated in owning, raising, and many also in breeding parrots, so we can answer your questions...

*I* know that and *you* know that, but how is a newcomer supposed to glean that 'everyone here means well' when half-a-dozen people chime in together with a chorus of criticism? All our combined education and knowledge is lost to someone who is intimidated away like that. We *might* have slowly and patiently (you know: the way we do it with our birds?) led him to realise his shortcomings *without* leaping in to judge him. We *might* have been able to work to improve those poor birds' situation. If sokkary's gone for good, there goes our chance to make a difference!

I was confused as to what the OP's main goal was, I wasn't sure if he wanted to breed this pair or tame this pair as pets, or both I guess...

I think sokkary's English might have been such that he wasn't able to express his intentions too clearly. I think you were one of the few who actually asked him what he meant to do, but he never got the chance to answer before being pounded on.

Doing both is extremely difficult, as once a pair of birds of the same species and opposite sex are bonded-closely with one another, and also living in a small "breeder cage" with a nest-box attached, they are going to have little to no interest in having any contact with humans at all...There are extremely rare exceptions to this, but they are very few and far between, and usually the circumstances surrounding these situations are quite unusual...

That short paragraph right there is what I think sokkary was asking for: a dispassionate reply to his question. Read the thread again and try to put yourself in his place. How would *you* feel if you'd copped the reception he got?

I've belonged to the forum for quite a few years now (minus a couple of years taken off for study) and I continue to see young, inexperienced and new bird owners pummelled for simply not knowing stuff. Please, everyone, remember that you were a newbie once and you also made significant errors in the way you kept your birds. It is possible to point out *in a kind way* what an owner might do to improve matters. It is also possible to *ask first* what his situation is before assuming he can magically fix everything in a few days.

If we're all serious about bettering the lot of caged birds worldwide, we'd do best not to drive the newbies away. That way, they can continue to learn and, hopefully, spread the knowledge in their communities.

Betrisher

 

[Laurasea]

Sokkary come back!!! We want you here! We want you to be part of the conversation! Please give us all a second chance!

 

[EllenD]

That was exactly the reason I wrote my above post, because I knew that Sokkary didn't understand that everyone's intent was well-meaning...I think we often don't pay attention to where the person is from, nor what their own "cultural differences" may be, and we treat them almost automatically like they are an American living in the US who has everything they need at their disposal 24 hours a day...

I have worked in the automotive sales industry for about 15 years now, and living in State College, PA, with Penn State and their over 100,000 students being here, I see this issue every single day of my life, and it never doesn't bother me tremendously. Penn State is one of the most highly-regarded engineering and agricultural universities in the world, and as such over 1/4 of the students are "international students", with the majority being from China, Korea, Japan, India, and the middle-east...And these poor students are smack-dab in the middle of rural, central Pennsylvania, the Redneck-Capital of the world...I grew-up with it (than goodness my mom raised me and not my father), and I still cringe every time I hear someone say something horribly hateful to someone from another country. I have always been the salesperson who waits on the international students and professors, because everyone else runs and hides. They can't understand the cultural differences and simply respect them...

Now I've been seeing this first-hand for the past 15-16 years, BUT I still have to remind myself when I'm here in the forum trying to help people with their birds, bearded dragons, etc. I used to simply tell people that "they need to find an Avian Vet, there's no home-remedies for this, there's nothing you can do, you must get your bird to an Avian Vet immediately"...Then a few months ago I made the decision that I would instead try to help these people living in countries where Vets in-general are few and far between, let alone an Avian Vet...And so-far I've been able to help a few birds that would have otherwise died, namely Shine the Cockatiel. Sometimes we just have to take a step back and look at the entire situation as a whole, and remind ourselves how blessed we are to live in the US, the UK, Canada, etc., and then try our best to counsel these bird owners to do the best they can do with what they have to work with...

 

[sokkary]

Hello all

sorry for being late on reply and thanks for every one and every note and repla, i'm living on saudi arabia, i know that the cage is small but it happen that smaller indian rings are feeling comfort and actually breed on same cage, i know that alexandrian are bigger and i'm learning about their habits and wellign to make them feel safe and happier, i cant get 2m by 2m cage for the space of it, but i can get a bigger cage witch is 120 cm wide and 90 height, in our place it's very hot that reach to 50c in summer so cant but them outside in aviary, but i'm considering making small one for one or two moths so they can stretch their wings, i used to leave the cage open from above, and they are semi-tamed where the male and female would take food from my hand.

the reason they should kept inside home room is the weather, in summer i'm keeping the ac working all day long to keep the right temperature for them

thanks again for every one advise, and i welcome any more advice based on what being said

 

[Betrisher]

It's good to see you back again, sokkary! I'm glad you're getting a bigger cage and I understand the problem of the summer heat too. I'm in Australia and the heat in our area is around 40ºC - much cooler than where you are! My Alexandrines are outside in a large cage, but I mist them every day with water and make sure they have ice and cold water available at all times. When the heat's really bad, I put wet towels over the cage and a fan close by to blow cool air. It's not perfect, but it helps a bit in the heat of midday.

I think an aviary would be a *great* idea for when it's cool enough for the birds to go outside! Even though Indian Ringnecks will breed in a tiny cage, most of us feel that is a very unkind situation for them to be in. If a parrot hasn't got enough space and enough things to do, he will begin to pick his feathers or even his flesh. That's why we always suggest a very big cage: a bird that can fly is happy and healthy and less likely to pull out his own feathers. Of course, if you don't have space for a large cage, the next best thing is to open the cage and allow the birds to be free inside your house for much of the day. My Alexes used to hang out on a playgym made out of PVC pipe. It was easy to put newspaper underneath to catch their mess and that system worked well for us when my birds lived in a cage that was really too small.

If you check our 'Parrot Toys' section, there's lots of ideas for things you can do to keep your parrots busy. Usually, we aim to have our cages full of toys so our birds are always busy chewing or climbing or swinging or hanging from a rope.

I decided I will not allow my birds to breed. I don't want to risk the health of the hen or to risk that she will stop being tame and friendly if she has a nest to defend. Also, I wouldn't want to sell any babies she might have (it would be like selling my own children) - yet I don't have the space to keep them. It's much less trouble if I just keep my birds healthy and happy and child-free.

It would be really good to see photos of your Alexes, sokkary. They are my favourite parrot and I never get sick of seeing other peoples' birds. Mine are moulting at the moment, so they don't exactly look their best. Sadly, both have lost their beautiful long tail feathers and look a bit dull. I'll post some photos when their new feathers are in.

 

[sokkary]

Thanks Betrisher
i appreciate your advice actually, my birds are not trammed i'm welling to breed them to start tame the babies if any, in our area it's rare to find tamed or baby of Alexandrian, i hope your birds pass mounting quickly last time they moult it was awful but they are now much better, now i'm planning for a bigger cage and i'll check the toys section as well

Thanks again

 

[Laurasea]

Happy New year! Glad you are still with us!