i have to sell my hahn.s macaw

[andrea.faerie]

um.. I have a question it seems all of you have experience with and may be able to answer...

What exactly is "target training" ? I've seen is used simoulatneously with clicker training and I've read up on a lot of stuff about training techniques but I don't exactly grasp the concept of training your birdie to nibble on something... I could see how it could help with getting a bird accustomed to a new toy or food or object... but beyond that, what's the point of it? what are the implications of it? Is it really a big important thing like "step up/step down"?

Thank you! <3

Did you watch that video that was being posted? That's target training! Its being used to train birds with behavioral problems.

Indeed I did watch it. I've looked up some others and been reading about it while I've been conducting my research. I want to help others that are having trouble with the correlation? Like, when you target train the bird... you're making it focus it's attention on something else and put it's beak on something else... but then once it does that, how does that help you start to handle the birdie? Does it curb biting? I'd like to do a bit about target training in my little newsletter thing I'm going to write so any input would be massively helpful thanks oodles!

 

[MikeyTN]

Im not sure if this video shows it or not. In one of her videos she was showing the Senegal biting constantly. Then she started target training. After the bird was used to it then she used her hand instead. There was no biting! Almost like what I did with perch training. Then eventually use my hands with the same results.

 

[Mike]

um.. I have a question it seems all of you have experience with and may be able to answer...

What exactly is "target training" ? I've seen is used simoulatneously with clicker training and I've read up on a lot of stuff about training techniques but I don't exactly grasp the concept of training your birdie to nibble on something... I could see how it could help with getting a bird accustomed to a new toy or food or object... but beyond that, what's the point of it? what are the implications of it? Is it really a big important thing like "step up/step down"?

Thank you! <3

You've got the right idea. Target training gets the bird to voluntarily do something safe (touch the stick) which you use to extinguish bad behavior (biting the hand). You use clicker training to train the bird to go touch something--often a stick. After you've phased out the clicker from the target training and you've reduced the frequency of rewarding the bird whenever it touches the stick, you are then free to use that stick to distract the bird from bad behavior. Each time the bird avoids the bad behavior by going to the stick you reward the bird. Eventually you reduce the use of the stick and continue rewarding the bird for not doing the bad behavior.

In the video the lady has a bird that bites her hand whenever the Lady tries to get it to step up. She trains the bird to step up in order to touch the stick. The bird doesn't really even know its stepping up onto the "dreaded hand" it is just focused on getting to the stick. Gradually the bird learns that stepping up on the hand is not bad and it stops attacking the hand even when the stick is no longer used.

 

[Mike]

We all have to understand and take into consideration that we all have a right to own a pets and this includes parrots. It is all too common and easy to get animals that we know nothing about. Many of those people who fall into this category, like MikeyTN showed, often neglect and abuse their animals. But lynn came here asking for advice. Sure, she jumped the gun and wanted to rehome him at first but now she wants to learn. Negativity will not spread knowledge and the more that people know of these wonderful creatures, the less they will be neglected.

You do not have to agree with what she did, but you are honestly mistaken if you do not think this happens everyday. And here, today, we are able to do something about it firsthand and teach someone who is obviously willing. I say this because she sent me a private message. In this message she proved that she cares for the bird and is honestly just looking for help. She is just afraid. Like many people would be.

For those who are not educated it is not as obvious where to find the answers they seek. Believe it or not, but not everyone knows how to research and find answers on the internet. Nor are the confident with the answers they find, which is agreeable since anything and everything can be posted on the internet. I know from experience that some people just need recommendations and guidance first. If I were in her position, I would sure as heck prefer straight on answers instead of reading articles and books on subjects that may or may not have anything to do with my problem.

Good reset by SkyCon. This thread was getting way to sanctimonious and too much text about how good the responder was with their own bird, and not enough focus on helping the original requester--Lynn. Lynn came to this forum for help, not for preaching.

All of us should keep our self congratulatory comments to ourselves. We should not burden everyone else with our narcissistic ramblings. Let's focus on helping those who ask for help. Attacking or putting someone down for their comments or actions not only hurts the person asking for help, but it will stop others from asking for help in the future.

 

[MikeyTN]

Mike,

Don't make me bring up prvt messages sent to certain someone and say something different in here. Don't be self righteous.

Comments needs to be made to make people understand how important it is to own a bird! Im upfront and honest. Never two faced! I would tell you something just the way it is with no sugar coating.

 

[Tammy]

I must have gotten lucky with my first bird experience. The original owner of my Amazon died and the bird bounced a few times & wound up with a friend of mine. I knew NOTHING about birds but agreed to take him because he was unhappy at her house. I was petrified of him for the first week. I let him out & let him fly around the house. When I needed to put him away I told him if he didn't want me to try to pick him up then he better fly in his cage himself. Which is exactly what he did! He's my best friend now & is currently trying to steal the hairband out of my ponytail. I'm so glad he gave me a chance to get to know him. We actually play tag & he has a huge vocabulary. He takes a shower with me every day & whistles at me. I'd be lost without him.

 

[MikeyTN]

Tammy,

Your bird choose you! When they're easy like that, you have a instant bond. What's his name? Pics? Thanks for sharing!!!

 

[kitt]

Wow Tammy that is great...
How on earth did you ever get over your fear of him to end up having such a friend...
For some reason I am afraid of amazons...I am so glad this worked out for you.
Sadly, stories like yours are more rare then the norm....Congrats and yes, maybe you can post pics in another thread so we don't steal Lynn's thread.....
Thanks for sharing your story.

 

[andrea.faerie]

um.. I have a question it seems all of you have experience with and may be able to answer...

What exactly is "target training" ? I've seen is used simoulatneously with clicker training and I've read up on a lot of stuff about training techniques but I don't exactly grasp the concept of training your birdie to nibble on something... I could see how it could help with getting a bird accustomed to a new toy or food or object... but beyond that, what's the point of it? what are the implications of it? Is it really a big important thing like "step up/step down"?

Thank you! <3

You've got the right idea. Target training gets the bird to voluntarily do something safe (touch the stick) which you use to extinguish bad behavior (biting the hand). You use clicker training to train the bird to go touch something--often a stick. After you've phased out the clicker from the target training and you've reduced the frequency of rewarding the bird whenever it touches the stick, you are then free to use that stick to distract the bird from bad behavior. Each time the bird avoids the bad behavior by going to the stick you reward the bird. Eventually you reduce the use of the stick and continue rewarding the bird for not doing the bad behavior.

In the video the lady has a bird that bites her hand whenever the Lady tries to get it to step up. She trains the bird to step up in order to touch the stick. The bird doesn't really even know its stepping up onto the "dreaded hand" it is just focused on getting to the stick. Gradually the bird learns that stepping up on the hand is not bad and it stops attacking the hand even when the stick is no longer used.

Mike, do you mind if I borrow this tidbit for an article I'm writing?

 

[skycon]

Mike,

Don't make me bring up prvt messages sent to certain someone and say something different in here. Don't be self righteous.

If you are talking about her sending something to me, than it really wasn't her "saying something different [than] in here." She was simply explaining her situation and her fears which is what led to her wanting to rehome Jasper. Behavioral problems like these can be very misleading and often misunderstood by owners who are not experienced as huge flaws. Most of these people get fearful and want to get rid of these birds for their safety. It is not so farfetched and I can certainly understand it. Sometimes you just have to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

From experience, I find the bond between me and a bird that I was able to tame even stronger than one that takes to me right off. I find it rewarding and touching that a bird can learn to trust me and overcome their fears. Which is reason for me feeling so strongly as to why to help Lynn. Also, it does no good to keep people in the dark and let this endless circle of misunderstood birds and "clueless" owners continue.

Perhaps she felt threatened which is why she didn't respond in this thread, which I find very understandable. You might of found your comments informative and straightforward, but reading from the receivers standpoint I find it quite threatening. This is not just to you, MikeyTN, in case it sounds that way. I am writing this with calmness and not lashing out. Just trying to explain myself.

 

[MikeyTN]

Skycon,

That message was not directed at you! Otherwise I would put skycon. You just got your macaw not that long ago and you were having problem with your bird right? Did I not offer my advice? I believe I did. I made it quite clear the reasoning behind why I don't believe it. I feel bad the first time with the first bird but not the second time. If she was truly a bird lover, this post wouldn't have been posted when target training solution advice was offered more then once myself included.

 

[Mike]

um.. I have a question it seems all of you have experience with and may be able to answer...

What exactly is "target training" ? I've seen is used simoulatneously with clicker training and I've read up on a lot of stuff about training techniques but I don't exactly grasp the concept of training your birdie to nibble on something... I could see how it could help with getting a bird accustomed to a new toy or food or object... but beyond that, what's the point of it? what are the implications of it? Is it really a big important thing like "step up/step down"?

Thank you! <3

You've got the right idea. Target training gets the bird to voluntarily do something safe (touch the stick) which you use to extinguish bad behavior (biting the hand). You use clicker training to train the bird to go touch something--often a stick. After you've phased out the clicker from the target training and you've reduced the frequency of rewarding the bird whenever it touches the stick, you are then free to use that stick to distract the bird from bad behavior. Each time the bird avoids the bad behavior by going to the stick you reward the bird. Eventually you reduce the use of the stick and continue rewarding the bird for not doing the bad behavior.

In the video the lady has a bird that bites her hand whenever the Lady tries to get it to step up. She trains the bird to step up in order to touch the stick. The bird doesn't really even know its stepping up onto the "dreaded hand" it is just focused on getting to the stick. Gradually the bird learns that stepping up on the hand is not bad and it stops attacking the hand even when the stick is no longer used.

Mike, do you mind if I borrow this tidbit for an article I'm writing?

Not at all. I'm not the creator of the method. I've read some books about it is all. The best I've read was by Anne Castro called "The Bird School: Clicker Training For Parrots and Other Birds." It's not a method for those without patience--but then neither is parrot ownership.

 

[Mike]

Mike,

Don't make me bring up prvt messages sent to certain someone and say something different in here. Don't be self righteous.

Comments needs to be made to make people understand how important it is to own a bird! Im upfront and honest. Never two faced! I would tell you something just the way it is with no sugar coating.

Oh, groan... You're not going to do to this thread what you did to the last, are you? Throw out some attacks, make some innuendoes, then get the moderator to drop the thread before anyone can respond? Give it a rest.

I don't know what it is Darkling told you was in my private messages, but I suspect you're nothing more than a naive dupe of her's--guileless. Not very quick, but innocent nonetheless.

I will post my private messages to Darkling on this thread so the readers of the thread will see how empty your veiled hints at my duplicity have really been.

I'm not sure what your's or Darkling's goals have been. It is clear that Darkling reads into other people's posts what she expects to see. I would suggest that she take the time to read people's written words and not read into those words her own fanciful thoughts. I would suggest that you stop being so judgemental and so full of yourself. You obviously have a lot of experience with pet birds, and have at times willingly shared that experience to the benefit of us all. You do yourself a disservice by attacking people on this forum--myself and others.

I will post my PM's to Darkling in the following postings. I hope everyone will accept what I have posted here as true. The moderator can herself look into my SENT ITEMS box and establish that I have not changed anything, other than to protect Darkling's and my private contact information.

Here goes...

 

[Mike]

Sent on 5/5:

Darkling,

I live outside Atlanta. This past weekend I drove up towards Chatanooga and saw some of the devastation you must of experienced.

I'm glad you can move in with your parents. At least you will have a gentle recovery.

Hannibal, on the other hand, needs some care. You're saying now that you want to sell him outright, but you may come to regret that. Here's what I suggest. Tell me the place in Alabama where you live. Tell me how much you want as a rehoming fee. If acceptable I'll give you that fee, but only if after you get your feet back on the ground you agree to take Hannibal back in exchange for the same rehoming fee.

I'll need your cage as well, so Hannibal will have a familiar home.

 

[Mike]

Sent on 5/6 at 3:47pm:

My wife and I went through Hurricane Frederick in Biloxi MS, back in the early 80's. I know some of the difficulties you're going through. That's why I wanted to offer you some help.

As you probably know from the forum, I have a Sun Conure and my own Greenwing is due to arrive from the breeders next month. I also went to Chatanooga last weekend and got a Hahn's Macaw for my other daughter. Oh, and my wife has two finches. I do not need another bird, especially a large one, but considering the situation you're in I'm willing to foster your bird until you're back on your feet. I know you're probably hurting for money, but times are not good for us either so I cannot pay you a rehoming fee. Based on past notes I've seen you post in the forum I can tell you care for your Macaw and I want to make sure this tornado disaster doesn't force you into a situation you'll come to regret. I am willing to cover the expenses to pick up your bird, and to care for your bird, provided the end result is that you two are reunited at a later date.

I tried attaching a contract describing our agreement, but it does not appear that is possible in this forum. Send me your email address and I'll send you the contract. My email address is below in my signature.

Look the contract over and think about it. I think it is fair and I think it covers all situations. I'm no lawyer, so hopefully it will be easily understandable, but if not I'll be happy to explain or to make changes for greater clarity.

In the contract I say that I will pick up and that I will care for your Macaw without any expense to you. When you're back on your feet you come to pick up the Macaw and you owe me nothing--nothing for care, food, or damage.

The contract also includes two sections which do result in a transfer of money between you and me. If you choose to sell the Macaw while it is in my care, you owe me for the food and toys I've purchased. You can avoid this by simply picking up your Macaw, taking it home, then selling it from there.

The second section is if you and I both agree to transfer ownership from you to me. In this case I pay you $500, which is what I consider a reasonable rehoming fee, and you reimburse me for food and toys I've purchased.

I'll keep receipts in case either of these two situations occur.

I also have a section in the contract on veterinary visits. I have protections in there for both you and for me.

Finally, I have a section on how to terminate the agreement.

Look it over and give me a call to discuss. My number is below in my signature.

If you agree I can pick up the bird tomorrow (Saturday) or two weeks from Saturday. I'm tied up Sunday, I work all next week, and I'm out of town on business next weekend. Its a four hour drive from my house to Arab, so I've pretty much got to dedicate a day to the pick up.

If you choose another path, that's fine too. I just want you to know that you've got me as an option.

Mike [my last name]
[my email]
[my mobile number]

 

[Mike]

Sent on 5/6 at 8:37 (I don't know why I sent this a second time. It was in my SENT ITEMS box):

My wife and I went through Hurricane Frederick in Biloxi MS, back in the early 80's. I know some of the difficulties you're going through.

As you probably know from the forum, I have a Sun Conure and my own Greenwing due to arrive from the breeders next month. I also went to Chatanooga last weekend and got a Hahn's Macaw for my other daughter. Oh, and my wife has two finches. I do not need another bird, especially a large one, but considering the situation you're in I'm willing to foster your bird until you're back on your feet. I know you're probably hurting for money, but times are not good for us either so I cannot pay you a rehoming fee. Based on past notes I've seen you post in the forum I can tell you care for your Macaw and I want to make sure this tornado disaster doesn't force you into a situation you'll come to regret. I am willing to cover the expenses to pick up and to care for your bird provided the end result is that you two are reunited at a later date.

I tried to attach a contract describing our agreement, but the forum doesn't give me an icon to do attachments. Send me an email address and I'll send the contract directly to you. My email address is below in my signature. Look it over and think about it. I think it is fair and I think it covers all situations. I'm no lawyer, so hopefully it will be easily understandable, but if not I'll be happy to explain or to make changes for greater clarity.

In the contract I say that I will pick up and that I will care for your Macaw without any expense to you. When you're back on your feet you come to pick up the Macaw and you owe me nothing--nothing for care, food, or damage.

The contract also includes two sections which do result in a transfer of money between you and me. If you choose to sell the Macaw while it is in my care, you owe me for the food and toys I've purchased. You can avoid this by simply picking up your Macaw, taking it home, then selling it from there.

The second section is if you and I both agree to transfer ownership from you to me. In this case I pay you what I consider a reasonable rehoming fee, and you reimburse me for food and toys I've purchased.

I'll keep receipts in case either of these two situations occur.

I also have a section in the contract on veterinary visits. I have protections in there for both you and for me.

Finally, I have a section on how to terminate the agreement.

Look it over and give me a call to discuss. My number is below in my signature.

If you agree I can pick up the bird tomorrow (Saturday) or two weeks from Saturday. I'm tied up Sunday, I work all week, and I'm out of town on business next weekend.

If you choose another path, that's fine too. I just want you to know that you've got me as an option.

Mike [my last name]
[my email]
[my mobile number]

 

[Mike]

Sent at 5/6 at 8:46pm:
[Darkling’s first name],

Just saw a post of yours saying you'd rather just sell Hannibal outright, instead of fostering him out. If that is true, then I suggest you post an add in Craigslist offering the bird, cage, and toys for whatever price you think you can get. In your writeup say that he does tricks and is gentle. The way he acts with his new owner may be completely different than he is with you.

My offer to foster Hannibal is still open. If after he's been gone awhile you're still absolutely sure that you don't want him back all you have to do is send me a written notice that you want to transfer him over to me according to the agreement document. You can be sure he will have a safe home.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[andrea.faerie]

Mike you are a godsend! People like you and everyone on this forum make me believe that there are still good people in the world <3 thank you for being compassionate to others

 

[Mike]

Those are my private messages to Darkling. Nothing more. Nothing less. I hope nobody is disappointed with the lack of double talk or the absence of disingenuousness.

Darkling never did send me an email so I never did send her the contract. If anyone is interested in seeing the content of the contract I'll be happy to post it here as well, but since the contents of the contract were never used (other than in my posted summary in the above notes) it didn't seem relevant.

If anyone is planning to foster someone else's pet I suggest you too draw up a contract between you and the bird's owner. This protects you and them. I drew up a contract between me and my breeder documenting our agreement. The breeder gladly signed and I now await the happy day my Greenwing comes home.

Thank you everyone for understanding my need to document the facts behind MikeTN's allegation of my dishonesty.

 

[MikeyTN]

I'm not even gonna comment on your posting. So I'll just say I agree to disagree.