Conure's aggression worse every day. Desperate for help.

[GFGC]

I'm being a little quicker on the draw with my time outs to make it as clear as possible to him. He got three today, but I'm ok with that. The way I see it, each one is an opportunity to learn. Hopefully he gets it! He gets everything else, that's for sure!

 

[Skittys_Daddy]

Just be patient and consistent. Skittles was a nightmare the first two years I had him. I can't tell you how many times I wanted to rip my hair out.

Now, he's very obedient - though he still likes to 'test' my patience sometimes - but now, even a bad day for him is like a blip compared to what I used to deal with.

 

[GFGC]

Last night I, to some extent, consented to Charlie and let the little creep perch on my shoulder for about an hour. He was very good. He nibbled my ear a little, but nothing hard. He went into his cage for bed time with no protesting (a nice apple chunk will do that!).

Today, I decided to try again. I have a lot of work to get done and I needed to be in the studio most of the afternoon but obviously Charlie can't be out without supervision. I brought his playground into my studio next to my desk and he eventually, of course, made his way to my shoulder where he became a completely different bird. He was DEMANDING affection! It was crazy. It was almost like he was saying "this is what I've always wanted, you jerk!"

He would rub his head all over my neck and let me touch and pet him with nothing but happiness. Every time he bit my ear I would say "no" and grab/remove his beak. However, I think I discovered that that was what he actually wanted since he allowed me to grab his beak with no squealing or biting and would promptly bite my ear again. I think he figured out that an ear bite means a hand is coming up to touch him, which he was very much in the mood for.

After I figured out what he figured out, I would grab him and put him back on his perch when he did it. Overall, I was VERY happy with this afternoon's session. I'm not sure what came over him, but I hope it continues. He was adorable and allowed me to get my work done at my desk without much trouble aside from his nibbling and demands for scratches.

He is currently with my girlfriend in the dining room and I can tell by what she is saying that he is being a biting pest again.

Good days and bad at this point, I suppose!

 

[Notdumasilook]

When I got Booger he had been "accidentally trained to bite an ear HARD to start a mock fight play session. That was his first encounter with the ancient Shaolin 5 fingers of Death Gung Fu technique coupled with the word NO. He has never bitten my ear again. It was obvious it was a learned behavior. He will also go T-Rex on my hand if I snap my fingers. Solution... I don't snap my fingers.. hence no issue. ) I bet clicker training would be tuff with him (on me that is) Careful you don't train him to bite your ears.

 

[Skittys_Daddy]

I think observing your parrot will lead to much more successful training sessions. I did that with Skittles and it made a huge difference. Knowing what he responds to and what freaks him out made it all so much easier.

This is especially important if you are not the 'first' owner of the bird. Because you have to figure out what they were already trained to do/respond to and it often leads to needing to retrain them.

I was fortunate, Skittles was pampered at the pet store he was at when I bought him. There was one clerk there who was absolutely in love with him and even told me she had considered buying him numerous times but didn't given her work schedule.

Skittles was already potty trained when I got him and he had learned to make kissy noises.

 

[GFGC]

He did very well again today. It seems as though he needs to figure me out as much as I do him. He was a little more hyper today than yesterday and the past few days he has viewed my girlfriend as a perch to sing from more than anything else. He's now very nippy with her, but I think it has a lot more to do with her being a little skittish with her fingers where as I am more confident and cautious.

 

[Notdumasilook]

Yout GF will have to draw the same lines with him you do most likely. My wife has physical limitations and can not use some of my methods and both Booger and Cookie treat her differently... usually unless I am in the same room and can "insist" with a finger wag and a firm no both can get over the edge. Cookie will actually run my wife off the couch if Im not present, but with me around he will sit nicely on her shoulder and preen her ear.

 

[Notdumasilook]

No. You never allow him to bite you. I mean, he may manage to sneak one or two through, but it should never be because you allowed it.

One hand holds him, the other controls the beak. Timeout is the consequence. If it happens immediately after you've told him "no", he'll eventually get it. And once he gets it, it'll just be a matter of exactly how stubborn your guy is. Some take longer to adjust their attitudes than others. As I said, it could take anywhere from a few days to a few months.

Consistency.

Maybe you can handle a small bird that way.. One could end up needin stitches and maybe a splint with with larger irate birdies.
And thinking about it... its virtually the same thing I do, without the "timeout". I figure the closest thing to a timeout in the wild for a parrot is when he is sliding down the throat of a hungry python...hence the brief restraining and the "no" are all the consequence I need.

 

[Notdumasilook]

I think observing your parrot will lead to much more successful training sessions. I did that with Skittles and it made a huge difference. Knowing what he responds to and what freaks him out made it all so much easier.

This is especially important if you are not the 'first' owner of the bird. Because you have to figure out what they were already trained to do/respond to and it often leads to needing to retrain them

Wise thought. And it helps to think like a bird. As much as some want birdies to be human and treat them as such they are still birds with tons of hardwired behaviors you have to consider. 90% of the time when some might think their bird is being bad.. no.. he is just being a normal bird.

GFGC... Can you figure out why your conure might enjoy being covered with both hands over his body but maybe react with a defensive bite if you try and pet (preen) his wings?? Think about it like a bird. Gimme your take and I'll give you mine.

 

[GFGC]

I would assume that the fact that they are cavity nesters has a lot to do with it. He loves to cram himself into the tightest little places he can fine. He also loves being wrapped in a towel. He's been much better the past couple of days. He doesn't mind a hand approaching when he is on my shoulder and, in fact, seeks it out.

I imagine that, to some extent, a finger coming at you and poking you is just annoying, especially when it pokes the very appendages your life depends on. When I first started this thread, he would either try to get away from hands or deliberately go towards one to bite it really hard. He was being a terror. As the weeks have passed, this behavior has declined a great deal.

I don't need Charlie to LIKE being pet on his back or his wings. I have no problem just petting his head his entire life, and from what I have read this will also help discourage any mating behavior. I just want him to not resort to biting when it happens. I'd like to be able to pick him up if I have to and (hopefully) harness train him one day without fear of the beast.

 

[JerseyWendy]

No. You never allow him to bite you. I mean, he may manage to sneak one or two through, but it should never be because you allowed it.

One hand holds him, the other controls the beak. Timeout is the consequence. If it happens immediately after you've told him "no", he'll eventually get it. And once he gets it, it'll just be a matter of exactly how stubborn your guy is. Some take longer to adjust their attitudes than others. As I said, it could take anywhere from a few days to a few months.

Consistency.

Maybe you can handle a small bird that way.. One could end up needin stitches and maybe a splint with with larger irate birdies.
And thinking about it... its virtually the same thing I do, without the "timeout". I figure the closest thing to a timeout in the wild for a parrot is when he is sliding down the throat of a hungry python...hence the brief restraining and the "no" are all the consequence I need.

On the contrary. The way Stephen (Anansi) described is exactly how I manage my own big macs and 'hard to handle' or 'bitey' ones. It's actually quite easily done as long as close attention is being paid to them.

Knock on wood - so far I've required zero stitches from any large birds.

 

[Anansi]

No. You never allow him to bite you. I mean, he may manage to sneak one or two through, but it should never be because you allowed it.

One hand holds him, the other controls the beak. Timeout is the consequence. If it happens immediately after you've told him "no", he'll eventually get it. And once he gets it, it'll just be a matter of exactly how stubborn your guy is. Some take longer to adjust their attitudes than others. As I said, it could take anywhere from a few days to a few months.

Consistency.

Maybe you can handle a small bird that way.. One could end up needin stitches and maybe a splint with with larger irate birdies.
And thinking about it... its virtually the same thing I do, without the "timeout". I figure the closest thing to a timeout in the wild for a parrot is when he is sliding down the throat of a hungry python...hence the brief restraining and the "no" are all the consequence I need.

On the contrary. The way Stephen (Anansi) described is exactly how I manage my own big macs and 'hard to handle' or 'bitey' ones. It's actually quite easily done as long as close attention is being paid to them.

Knock on wood - so far I've required zero stitches from any large birds.

Exactly. Thank you, Wendy.

And maybe the fact that my birds are ekkies, not budgies, cockatiels or conures, might have been missed, here. My guys aren't exactly small, either. And both are more than capable of degloving injuries. I've just found that I haven't needed to do anything other than control the beak with one hand.

As I've said earlier, Notdumasilook, if I were dealing with a large, wild rescue bird intent on eating my face, sure I'd use your neck immobilization method. Why not? It's effective in such a situation. But the OP is hardly facing such a dire circumstance with his conure. Merely some nippiness that he'd like to curtail.

Also, Notdumasilook, you constantly mention birds in the wild whenever you voice your disagreement with the timeout tactic, (which, btw, appears to be yielding results for the OP. Just sayin'.) yet I believe you'd be hard-pressed to find an example in the wild of one bird immobilizing another by grasping it around the neck, either. Far as I know, headlocks don't appear in avian culture. (Nor do figure four leg locks or arm bars, while we're at it)

Now, I'm not trying to allow this thread to slide back off track with yet another circular debate on the merits of neck holds, but if you are going to rail against timeouts as being contrary to what birds experience in nature, at least keep it consistent with the application of your own methods.

Either that, or find a new basis for your argument against timeouts... and argue it in a new thread in the Training section so as not to derail this one.

 

[Puck]

I just wanted to step in and say that most of all you should NOT give up on your little buddy! I know it was mentioned at some point in this thread that perhaps you are an aggressive owner or that you should just hand the bird over to your girlfriend if it shows a little bit of preference toward her, but don't let those ideas fill your head. Birds have VERY vibrant personalities and it is COMPLETELY possible that your guy is just a bit of a stinker who needs some lessons in politisse before he is the Nicest Birdie Ever (TM)--just because he has some funky reactions to things you do doesn't mean that you aren't suited for one another or that it is somehow your fault because you want him to be your friend. As for the girlfriend, sure, maybe he likes her--but that ABSOLUTELY does not mean he can't love you! Our bonds with birds grow over time, and I guarantee that if you spend enough time with him, the bond will grow. Tons of birds end up rehomed because of the mindset that if the bird doesn't bond awesomely with them ASAP then it will never happen, but that is soooo not true. I have owned over twenty budgies, four cockatiels, and a Quaker in my life, and every single relationship grew over time getting better and better as I spent more and more years with them. So don't let words get you down! Already your buddy is improving, and its only been a couple of weeks--imagine how great things will be in a few months, then a few years. It is easy to look at some of the awesome bird/parront pairings on this forum and think "oh man, I don't have that kind of relationship with MY bird!" but many of these parronts have had their feathered friends for years and have worked very hard building those bonds. Continue doing your best and you will figure out which methods work best for you and your friend. Good luck!

 

[Anansi]

Well said, Michelle.

 

[GFGC]

@Puck: Thank you for that message! It's so easy to see everyone with their little cuddlers and think "oh no... I got a bad egg!"

Charlie is on the upswing. He's doing better and I think once a few more things *click* for him he will be a good boy.

 

[GFGC]

Yikes! Charlie had a bad day today. His routine was all out of whack due to a dentist appointment that I had during the time he is usually out so his morning recess started earlier and got cut short. Then when I was able to take him out in the afternoon a maintenance guy had to get into the apartment unexpectedly so I had to put him back in almost as soon as he was let out. I got bitten for that one, and then he was a bite monster the rest of the day, finishing his night with a few hard ones as he went in for bed. What a grump!

 

[Notdumasilook]

Hmmm.. I thought an open discussion here was welcome.. even if we might disagree. I guess I was wrong. Honestly I was just pointing out the similarity in our method.. (and what im doing is not a "neckhold" you know this). We both restrain the birds with little difference. And I wouldn't restrain one and tell him "no" if I had a beak to bite him back with. I said that in the beginning. And yes,.. the young man is having some limited and marginal success...as I said in an earlier post usually the bird figures it out not because we are doing anything right, but in spite of all the crap we are doing wrong. But I do maintain they are very smart and learn fast if you "luck up" and use the right method(s) Honestly Im in the "birds" corner and at least I have no other agenda. And pardon...I have been very consistent. It bothers me (for the poor bird) its nearly a month and the same problem exist. That's disappointing. But more disappointing is that one can't disagree with a "mod" and offer a slightly different method that works very well without getting told more or less to "shut up". But you da "boss"

 

[Anansi]

Sigh...............

You're really bound and determined to have a fuss, aren't you?

But I'm not going to indulge you.

Look, earlier in this thread you mentioned a method that you use. Fine. Others disagreed with you. Also fine.

You then took it as a personal attack, and in the process derailed the thread. It became more about how you felt you were being shut down by the mods than the original question posed by the OP. (Deja vu all over again.)

But I didn't like the thought of your feeling attacked and took the time, again in this very thread that has nothing to do with your pride or misperceptions, to explain that it was all just a disagreement being freely and openly discussed on a forum. No one was being shut down.

One would think that would be the end of it, right?

But no. You keep bringing up the neck restraint method and how maligned you feel. Honestly, I'd thought we were all past that.

This is not a thread for the debate of neck restraining vs timeouts. You can advise the OP in any method you'd like, so long as you're not advocating the purposeful harming of a bird. But you're taking every opportunity to attempt to turn this into a debate.

Debates are fine... in the right place. Which is why I suggested that you start a new thread if you were so eager to engage in one.

I'm not infringing upon your right to express your views. Just asking you to take it to the proper venue and stop derailing this particular thread.

Also, this is the second time you've insinuated some kind of moderator plot to silence you. So please. Enlighten me. Which tool in my nefarious bag of moderator tricks have we used to shut you down? How have I used and abused my moderator "powers" to suppress your views?

Hmmm.... maybe we've banned you? But then we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we? I've got it! Surely we've deleted your posts! No? Then I'm confused. How have we been shutting you down?

Ah! Of course! I've posted responses! But wait, can't anyone do that?

Notdumasilook, I honestly feel no need to silence you. As I've already told you, several times before, under certain circumstances I have even used your method of restraint. All I'm asking is that you save your desire for debate for a more appropriate thread.

And lastly, let's try and be constructive here, shall we? Referring to the OP's progress as disappointing, or suggesting that he give away his conure just because the training process has been somewhat challenging, is far from constructive or even remotely helpful. People come to this forum for help, not to be derided.

If you STILL feel the desire to debate tactics, go to the Behavioral section and have at it. If you have further issue with me, feel free to use the pm function. But there's been enough disruption of this thread, don't you think?

 

[seagoat]

You only ignore little testing nips that baby birds do, as they learn how hard a pressure is acceptable. if the bite is hard you need to be able to communicate that to the bird. It is not punishment it is all about communication. For my baby Meyers, when he bites too hard, I pinch his beak firmly from both sides and say "too hard" and then I pinch it again gently and softly say "nice kiss". He is giving me soft little kisses now, when i say nice kiss, and getting more gentle when I say too hard. If you let a parrot walk all over you he will and he will not be as happy or have as good a life as he can have if he can communicate to you and have you both be happy.

 

[GFGC]

Update: Charlie has been a lot more affectionate as of late. He still gets timeouts for biting hard though, so that's been a slow process. He is COVERED in pin feathers right now which might be part of the reason for his slight backslide as of late. Hopefully once his molting is done he won't be angry by default.

The hardest part is not getting bitten a thousand times on the way to his cage for a time out. I hold his beak on the way, but he slips out and even if he doesn't, when I let go to release him he gets me, often worse than his initial bite. Any suggestions? Thanks!