COVID-19 Virus

[Squeekmouse]

I remember when seatbelts became the law and I thought people who resisted the idea were nuts, why would anyone think that's a bad idea?? Preserve your own life... seems like a no-brainer! But then I learned about WHY some objected. When functioning properly, and worn properly, seat belts can save lives. When seat belts malfunction they can kill you, even in an accident that would have otherwise caused minor injuries or no injuries at all. Some even argue that a seatbelt and airbags are some plot to ensure that a person dies in the accident so they don't live with an injury and sue the auto-makers. (Not saying I agree, but I can see why some would find this objectionable).

So then I thought Helmet laws were totally reasonable and why would anyone argue with that? Then I actually RODE on a motorcycle and learned why. While you are wearing one, the wind will catch the helmet and try to pull your head off your shoulders if you are going more than 20 mph. Your peripheral vision is gone and your hearing is impaired. Meanwhile, if you get in a wreck, you are still easily able to break your neck or otherwise completely mess up your body, and arguable you are more likely to wreck because of your impaired vision/hearing and balance. On the other hand, not wearing a helmet endangers ONLY yourself... so why should the government be telling you what you can or cannot do with your own body? (Pro-choice anyone?)

My point is... it's very easy to argue about how reasonable it is to protect "the greater good" at the expense of a few personal liberties... and it's very easy for those "reasonable" precautions to take one step after another... then another... then another.. and then we've lost our freedom and gained an oppressive government.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
- Ben Franklin


Whenever I hear some brilliant proposal from the government that sounds like it's All Good and No Bad... the first thing I do is research who is arguing against it and why so I can understand what that hidden downside is... there is ALWAYS a hidden downside.

 

[noodles123]

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
- Ben Franklin

I get your point, and this is a hot issue for me, so if I come off as impassioned, it isn't personal.
Unlike seat belt and helmet laws, by not following masking, one can kill hundreds and thousands via a chain reaction .

Jefferson was all about John Locke and he (Locke) and Hobbes were basically the ones who came up with the whole idea of social contract and giving up some freedoms in order to be protected (although they didn't know they agreed on a lot at the time)...So I guess Jefferson must have changed his tune by the time that quote was recorded...Because Hobbes and Locke were credited with setting the foundation for the ideals that shaped the articles and eventual constitution... and that quote by Jefferson is contrary to many of his foundational principles.

It is also totally contrary in terms of modern society or even the society he created initially.

We willingly give up rights all of the time for safety-- public schools, prisons, court rooms, hospitals, roadways, airports etc
My thing is, it is no longer a "personal freedom" when that very freedom denies others their reasonable right to life, liberty and property.

I would hope that any human worth their weight would sacrifice a bit of discomfort to literally save the word.

Furthermore, an exposed face is hardly an "essential liberty" so long as there is scientific/statistical justification for the covering and so long as the person can see, breathe and speak (believe me....having done it for over a year for 8+ hours daily, it sucks, but it's not essential to have my face uncovered...)

We know that covering helps FAR more than it hurts, and that we keep having to cover because not all people are taking this seriously and covering/keeping distanced.
This isn't arbitrary or even coming from one source-- there are scientists all over the globe stating that we all need to do this. The numbers are real. By wearing a mask, you protect your freedom and the freedom of others.

"John Locke (1632-1704) argued that the law of nature obliged all human beings not to harm “the life, the liberty, health, limb, or goods of another”:
The state of nature has a law of nature to govern it, which obliges every one: and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind, who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions… (and) when his own preservation comes not in competition, ought he, as much as he can, to preserve the rest of mankind, and may not, unless it be to do justice on an offender, take away, or impair the life, or what tends to the preservation of the life, the liberty, health, limb, or goods of another.
John Locke, Two Treatises of Government, ed. Thomas Hollis (London: A. Millar et al., 1764). 12/16/2019."

Masking protects everyone's life, liberty and property. More masking=fewer cases= open businesses=surviving economy...Less masking= more cases= eventual businesses forced to closed and more people mad about masking.

 

[SailBoat]

Well, beginning to see more reporting and individuals commenting on a 'Booster' in the works!

So, if government can 'force' the use of a mask (or is the current requirement a double mask). Why is it acceptable to not force individuals to be vaccinated? Or, to aggressively halting the transport of drugs, which is a known means of transferring this Virus, city to city, state to state.

My greatest fear in all this, is the vast easy, in which Americans roll-over and offer the 'all mighty' Government the right to take 'freedom' and trash it! Plus, miss the reality that measures that 'may' protect in one setting offers zero effect in others. Example: High population density mega cities, compared to wide open ranges.

I'm coming to the opinion that my time spent severing this Nation was a true waste of time as this country seems hell-bent on rolling over and kissing individuals freedoms goodbye!

 

[noodles123]

1. Thank you for your service.

2. My only comfort is that people have been saying "the world has gone to hell in a hand-basket" for decades lol.. It's probably true, but I bet we have a few more to go.

I think forced vaccination is very different from a mask-mandate because it physically alters your cells/internal state (vs. a mask, which is reversible and poses no risk to the wearer). A mask is more reversible than a haircut, but the shot has potential side effects and is super invasive in comparison. Nevertheless, forced vaccination is not unprecedented. Think about Polio and that mass vaccine effort, or required vaccinations for public school enrollment. The government forces us to do stuff all of the time.


If enough individuals opt out of the vaccine, you end up with all sorts of problems, like vaccinated people getting sick too due to lack of herd immunity, mutations and constant exposure. The key is getting the majority to stop spreading the virus via social distancing and masks , while waiting for the majority to get vaccinated. In places like Israel (where there are high levels of UNvaccinated people for diseases in general) they really struggle with keeping immunized people healthy (mumps and whooping cough are common even in vaccinated people).
If individuals would show greater responsibility and community regard, masking laws wouldn't be necessary, but people aren't thinking about how their actions impact others...thereby forcing gov intervention in order to protect people from those who just don't care. If people would do the right thing and think more about long-term (vs instant gratification) we could have already been done with much of this. I do think the government is a mess and has its hands in too many things, but I wouldn't mind more involvement when it comes to something like covid with such sweeping impacts.

 

[SailBoat]

Thank you!

There is a World of difference between: "the world has gone to hell in a hand-basket" -and- "this country seems hell-bent on rolling over and kissing individuals freedoms goodbye!"

I understand what you are saying. The discussion of which is more righteous displays the very reason, government should not be involved.

The wonders of this Great Nation is that we can still have this discussion!

 

[Laurasea]

In the spirit of debate
Vaccines are required for children to attend school
https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/immunization/schools/school_vaccines/

Is it the familiarity of these older diseases, that makes vaccinations against them ok? Is it the newness of Covid-19 , that makes vaccinations a hot topic?,
Or is it the other diseases kill children, and this one mostly kills older adults, or those with health issues more acceptable?,

I can't help but feel this whole pandemic would have been handled differently if children were the ones dying . Thst teenagers and college age kids would act differently if their younger siblings were the ones in hospital and on ventilation, and in morgue trucks....

I'm not for mandatory Covid-19 Vaccines.
But I'd say I am for a mask mandate.
I'm definitely ready to get to the other side of this awful pandemic

 

[SailBoat]

Wait one moment Folks!

You are saying that it is not proper for the Government to mandate Vaccination against this monster virus. A means of providing a 90+% likelihood of not getting it! But it is perfectly okay to mandate a wide variation of ‘masks,’ which vary between less than 20% to a high of +80% (if a N-95 is worn correctly) against this monster virus?

Sorry, but the logic crashes, if the Goal is to Stop the spread!

The statement of increase aliments caused by the vaccination does not fill the gap, as unless you have dug a bit deeper you likely haven’t seen the aliments that are caused by extended mask wearing.

I’m vaccinated and I wear a mask, which has “VACCINATED” printed on it! More as a means of showing the stupidity of the mandates in my State then too mathimaticlyl decrease my chances of contacting this monster virus!

 

[Scott]

I’m vaccinated and I wear a mask, which has “VACCINATED” printed on it! More as a means of showing the stupidity of the mandates in my State then too mathimaticlyl decrease my chances of contacting this monster virus!

I believe the guidance of proper mask wearing for a vaccinated person is to protect others. You are now far less susceptible to contracting Covid, but may become totally asymptomatic spreader of virus. We're in a race to inoculate as many folks as possible to halt the spread of mutations.

Vaccine hesitancy is fine balance between rights of individuals vs safeguarding the herd. No easy answers in our Republic with wonderful Constitution, but I deeply lament the deliberately deceptive forces urging skepticism as means of division. Sadly, most of these entities are outside our borders.

 

[texsize]

As long as the long term effects of the vaccine are unknown (this mrna vaccine has never been used in humans before) I won’t be taking it.

As long as there have been no animal studies with the vaccine I would rather let my body deal with the virus on its own.

My mother’s partner is a retired RN and retired hospice worker.
She is very much against getting this Shot In The Dark (hint,hint)

Live and let live. If you want the short I am cool with that.
Just. So long as you allow me to choose not to risk an unproven vaccine.

 

[noodles123]

Wait one moment Folks!

You are saying that it is not proper for the Government to mandate Vaccination against this monster virus. A means of providing a 90+% likelihood of not getting it! But it is perfectly okay to mandate a wide variation of ‘masks,’ which vary between less than 20% to a high of +80% (if a N-95 is worn correctly) against this monster virus?

Sorry, but the logic crashes, if the Goal is to Stop the spread!

The statement of increase aliments caused by the vaccination does not fill the gap, as unless you have dug a bit deeper you likely haven’t seen the aliments that are caused by extended mask wearing.

I’m vaccinated and I wear a mask, which has “VACCINATED” printed on it! More as a means of showing the stupidity of the mandates in my State then too mathimaticlyl decrease my chances of contacting this monster virus!

I never said I was entirely against mandated vaccines for those interacting with large groups of people (as high school students do etc). SO MANY vaccines are already mandated for enrollment and teachers have been thrown to the wolves more times than I can count during this disaster. Many have died and many have been forced to choose between paying bills and death...SERIOUSLY-- It's the "Wild West" (despite common assumptions).


Masking is better than nothing-- statistics show this. It is not perfect, but it is better than nothing.

Mask-wearing is safer than covid, for sure....If you have no serious breathing issues (and even if you do) masks are deemed safe. Covid, on the other hand...Studies have shown that even if you are sickly, risks of wearing as mask outweigh the risks of not.

Again...I have been forced to wear a VERY thick mask for over 8 hours a day since August. Yes, it is miserable and I have a freaking callous on my nose...but at least I have minimized community/family spread (from students to me and me to students)

You have to also consider that fact that, without mandates, certain people will stop complying with suggestions and when I say I have first-hand experience with that, I mean it....


I wish the public could spend some time in a behavior classroom or any classroom...Masks, distancing, reporting....It's all super inconsistent and sketchy.


High schools are SCARY-- most kids do NOT care and many go out to wild parties.... Now think about kids who are out there mixing with 50 unmasked people nightly (sleeping with them, kissing them, eating food after them)...Sending those kids back to the classroom or into the community without masking= VERY VERY SCARY..ESPECIALLY, because schools do not force testing or suggest it to parents when a child is sick...Even worse yet, the majority of high school students spreading this to the community have not shown symptoms (although that does not discount the number of lives complicated or lost due to covid within the high school age group)

 

[SailBoat]

Wow! Are we so preconditioned that anything that sounds like a variation to the trained response, it is jumped upon! Last fall, the vaccine was dangerous because of 'who' pushed it. Now that the 'others' are pushing it, they are running into all miss-trust they created. The reasons that the Vaccination availably groups is falling to lower age groups is a combination of more vaccinations are being produced AND that the number of individuals refusing it is over 50%!

Personally, I do not care if one chooses or does not choose to get Vaccinated, And NO, I do not want the government to mandate the Vaccination.

My point is: When Government Mandates 'willy nilly,' people become weary of it. And, choose not to participate! Hence even with Mandates in place for Masks the number of people wearing them continues to drop!

So, if I hear correctly. The reason one needs to wear a Mask, once vaccinated is to protect others!? Because I 'may' have gotten the virus before and even with the vaccination in place! I 'could' be infecting others!? That is a means of assuring that this will never go away. We will forever be infecting each other, there will never be a safe number for the herd to be safe.

Well, I am vaccinated and I will be taking the 'booster' when it is available and I will continue to wear a mask just to keep the haters from attacking me for not conforming! And, I feel ever less safe for doing little more that stating the obvious.

Take care my friends! It's becoming ever more dangers to consider the true may just be a step to either side.

 

[noodles123]

Wow! Are we so preconditioned that anything that sounds like a variation to the trained response, it is jumped upon! Last fall, the vaccine was dangerous because of 'who' pushed it. Now that the 'others' are pushing it, they are running into all miss-trust they created. The reasons that the Vaccination availably groups is falling to lower age groups is a combination of more vaccinations are being produced AND that the number of individuals refusing it is over 50%!
Personally, I do not care if one chooses or does not choose to get Vaccinated, And NO, I do not want the government to mandate the Vaccination.
My point is: When Government Mandates 'willy nilly,' people become weary of it. And, choose not to participate! Hence even with Mandates in place for Masks the number of people wearing them continues to drop!
So, if I hear correctly. The reason one needs to wear a Mask, once vaccinated is to protect others!? Because I 'may' have gotten the virus before and even with the vaccination in place! I 'could' be infecting others!? That is a means of assuring that this will never go away. We will forever be infecting each other, there will never be a safe number for the herd to be safe.

Well, I am vaccinated and I will be taking the 'booster' when it is available and I will continue to wear a mask just to keep the haters from attacking me for not conforming! And, I feel ever less safe for doing little more that stating the obvious.

Take care my friends! It's becoming ever more dangers to consider the true may just be a step to either side.

In early 2020, there was 1 known case in the US. Since then, well over 500,000 people are dead in this country (more than WW2). From one infection came 500,000 deaths (not counting infections) in the US alone...Not counting the harm to our businesses or families....Or the countless hours of hell spent knee deep in...****...Not to mention the cost in terms of health-care, exhausted hospital staff etc etc.

I am very frustrated by people ignoring the true risks that this poses to people daily. and it doesn't stop with this county-- it is the gift that "keeps on giving" via interstate and international travel.

We need to commit-- just like a person would in labor. Now is not the time to stop trying.

1. Immunity is semi-short (3 m average) so having had the virus is not the key.
2. New variants mean that even if you are infected, within a 3m window, you can get a new one, again.
3. Masking protects you and those vaccinated/unvaccinated somewhat, and is an essential fall-back (like a barrier and birth control combined with the pill, only COVID is more motivated than reproduction).
4. Now the vaccine may not work against new variants to its full extent...
5. If someone told me that I needed to stand on my head nightly and sing "twinkle twinkle little star" to stop COVID, even if it seemed stupid, I wouldn't see the risk in being overly cautious and doing anything I could.
6. Brittany, France (roughly 1-2 days ago) discovered a new variant that evades testing...but this whole thing started from 1...So while 1 person seems like nothing, think back to last year and those numbers and compare them to where we are now.

Vaccinated people can still potentially spread this until there is significant herd immunity, and lots of people think they are fully vaccinated right after the second shot (which is incorrect). On top of that, these new variants are more contagious and less impacted by vaccines in many cases...So you get protection from the classic covid and maybe a bit of a bumper with the new, but we simply do not know enough to play with fire like this.

The new variants already account for over 30% of cases in states in the US, and spikes are visible in the data as a result...We are headed for a do-over, just when our behavior could have turned the tide.I wouldn't be shocked if 1,000,000 dead was right around the corner.

People need to suck it up. PERIOD. Yes, it sucks, but I guess until someone has the bridge of their nose bleed from masking, or until someone removes his/her mask and deliberately coughs on you, or until familiar people die, it may feel hard to say. People are not as "naturally good" as one might assume, based on their tendency to avoid inconvenience and deny culpability.


Having watched kids lose parents etc, I am going to advocate for masks no matter the discomfort. If your mask is super comfortable, I bet you $100000 dollars you aren't wearing it properly, but even then, kudos for wearing it, as it is FAR better than nothing...The average mask is luxurious compared to an n95-99.

 

[Laurasea]

The last great pandemic took 600,000 lives, this pandemic will surpass that, probably by the end of April, and it won't stop there.

John Hopkins, CDC, WHO, the Lancet Journal, NIH, and multiple universities, and other institutions from around the world. All agree we can change this and lower deaths by wearing a mask with close to 90% compliance.

Italy and Europe are once again having more cases and deaths. Which has been a past predictor for what happens here.

Its hard for the human mind to grasp such large numbers. I've heard it phrased, think about several airplanes a day crashing and killing everyone. And it keeps happening everyday. We would be outraged, we would be shocked, we ground the flights ....

I'm saddened by all these deaths. I want to do whatever it takes to stop them .it seems so little to wear a mask.

 

[SailBoat]

Sorry, but a defeatist position I'm about to take here:

Time have come for all good conservatives to seek safe shelter as the good ship Comfort has left port, basically unused. 10 of thousands of created critical care beds have be shutdown and packed away, 10 of thousands of ventilators have fallen to the same reality, and Herd Immunity will never be allowed to happen, at least not in the short term (four years).

The near universal want to accept an endless circle of never ending fear has closed all other possible thinking of the return of the fairyland of normality to assure there is never a way to find a safe place has taken full control. The Woke View now aggressively hunts down anything that could imply normality.

Time to join an alt. right group and hunker-down for the next twenty months and pray that such views as conservatism, freedom, liberty, honesty, etc. survive.

Statistics proves the reality of Junk in, equals Junk out!

So, there will be an announcement likely by the fourth of july that the hope for herd immunity is an unattainable goal!

Enjoy, this is the new normal!

 

[Laurasea]

I just read this article, depressing for me as I have an autoimmune condition .

" Our study shows that [immunity] is unlikely for most transplant patients, and one could guess that our findings could also apply to other immunosuppresed patients, such as those with autoimmune conditions,” Johns Hopkins University"
https://www.inquirer.com/health/cor...ve-for-immunosupressed-patients-20210317.html

 

[SailBoat]

Sorry to see that! Any idea if the paper has been peer reviewed?

 

[Laurasea]

probably preliminary, as says could apply,

 

[Scott]

Wow! Are we so preconditioned that anything that sounds like a variation to the trained response, it is jumped upon! Last fall, the vaccine was dangerous because of 'who' pushed it. Now that the 'others' are pushing it, they are running into all miss-trust they created. The reasons that the Vaccination availably groups is falling to lower age groups is a combination of more vaccinations are being produced AND that the number of individuals refusing it is over 50%!

So, if I hear correctly. The reason one needs to wear a Mask, once vaccinated is to protect others!? Because I 'may' have gotten the virus before and even with the vaccination in place! I 'could' be infecting others!? That is a means of assuring that this will never go away. We will forever be infecting each other, there will never be a safe number for the herd to be safe.

Sorry, but a defeatist position I'm about to take here:

Time have come for all good conservatives to seek safe shelter as the good ship Comfort has left port, basically unused. 10 of thousands of created critical care beds have be shutdown and packed away, 10 of thousands of ventilators have fallen to the same reality, and Herd Immunity will never be allowed to happen, at least not in the short term (four years).

The near universal want to accept an endless circle of never ending fear has closed all other possible thinking of the return of the fairyland of normality to assure there is never a way to find a safe place has taken full control. The Woke View now aggressively hunts down anything that could imply normality.

Time to join an alt. right group and hunker-down for the next twenty months and pray that such views as conservatism, freedom, liberty, honesty, etc. survive.

Statistics proves the reality of Junk in, equals Junk out!

So, there will be an announcement likely by the fourth of july that the hope for herd immunity is an unattainable goal!

Enjoy, this is the new normal!

My recollection was that a subset of population was averse to inoculation on fear of unintended, anti-science, and punitive consequences, ie "microchips." Same demographic remains strongly opposed and lags accepting vaccines. Aside from fundamentalist anti-vaxxers of all ideologies, prime opposition was against political approval of vaccine in lieu of CDS, NIH, and medical community acceptance. They were not going to take a politician's opinion as gospel.

Unlike early 2020, ventilators are nearly last resort. Docs do not use unless options exhausted. We've learned a lot and triage permits many more infected to recover at home with prescriptive meds and isolation. As result, the hospital system did not crash as it did in Italy and other nations.

Yes indeed, masks protect the unvaccinated from asymptomatic inoculated individuals. The caveat is until we reach herd immunity - most humane method via vaccinations in lieu of "let it ride" and accept Darwinian consequences.

American "exceptionalism" would argue against defeatist mantras! You can bet we'll heal our way out of Covid by virtue of vaccinations, boosters, and recurrent formulas if needed. I won't take the political bait and discuss left vs right proclivities!

 

[SailBoat]

No bait, only the slow cycling around an honest attempt to see where paths separate to assure that the herd will not become immune when the latest statement from the 'experts' state a 90% adherents is the only way.

The math never gets us there.

 

[Flboy]

—-SailBoat—— Thank you!